Question about Heaven and Hell

[BridgeBuilder]

I apologize for being away from this thread for a while. I see it has taken on a life of its own! And I have thoughtfully read all the replies. There are so many, that at this time I can't respond individually to each point, but I may do that a little at a time.

I'm going to share something with you. I have been chatting with several Christians on another forum for days regarding this topic (one reason I have been away from THIS forum). They tend to be more conservative as a whole over there in the other forum, many believing in the "eternal torture" version of hell, but still I have found others who believe in a much more merciful, loving God who would not create such a place.

And my life has been CHANGED after talking to these people. I'm still a so-called "New Ager", but for the first time in years, I have decided to go to church today. I'm going to a Disciples of Christ church in my area which preaches a very loving message. As one person put it on another forum, I have rediscovered my "first love" (I guess there is a verse about that), which is Christianity. I am seeing the loving words of Jesus anew and not focusing on hell.

Do I believe the Bible is 100% inerrant? No, I do not. So I'm not a Fundamentalist. But I AM becoming a Christian once again (some would disagree since I know they think you must believe the Bible to be 100% inerrant to be a true Christian).

I was so "burned" by Christianity in my past that I had literally banned all Bibles from my house. They have been in a box in my garage (I couldn't throw them out, that didn't feel right, but I did banish them from the house.) I know this may seem shocking to some of you, but it's true. Now I can look at the Bible again through the eyes of a loving God.

By the way, some of you suggested that those who do not believe in the Bible must be living a wild life of wickedness. I am particularly offended by this. I happen to be a very loving, giving person, and I do NOT live a wild life of endless parties. I'm a caring mother, and I volunteer hours each week in my community. I do my best to love others as I do myself. Am I doing this to "earn a place in heaven"? Of course not (and I know many of you don't believe it's possible to earn a place in heaven anyway, except by belief in Jesus). But I do many things just because I know it's what a loving God would encourage me to do. Do I do it out of fear of judgement? Nope. I don't believe in a judgemental God. I do it because I know how to act in accordance with love, and the God of Love is helping me each and every day to be a more loving person.

I can't WAIT to go to church today. I want to learn more about just who Jesus is since I seem to have lost sight of him somewhere, focusing on all these words of judgement and eternal torment. Some of you may think "Well, she's not going to the RIGHT church." But just the fact I'm going to church at all would be viewed as a MIRACLE by my family.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[Key]

BridgeBuilder

I have nothing but wonderful things to say for your choice. I hope and pray that what ever path you take to God, that you find a home and place to feel welcome and blessed.

Priase and Blessings to you and Upon you.

May this be a whole new start to a whole new relationship, with God.

God Bless

Key

 

[GladiusVeritas]

BridgeBuilder, you're doing great!

I think there are many who are just burnt out on Christianity/the Church but who still love God.

Love God, and love yourself for who you are, because God does. My wife and I looked up the Greek meaning of the word "agape", one of the words for love. It meant unconditional love, without expecting anything in return. That just blew our minds!

There are a lot of people I talk to who are so done with church, but not done with God. And so many so called "non-believers" who will not set foot in a church, but have questions about God and Christianity. Some of who believe in God and believe in Jesus.
Even though I go to church, I sometimes think more "church" goes on in the marketplace (coffee shops!) and out in public as opposed to the actual church building. Sorry for the longer post, I just wanted to encourage you. I think we tend to be far harder on ourselves and each other than God ever is.

 

[revmalone]

So, there will be no extra punishment for the grievous sinners? My version is very close to yours, except there is some burning before death, as each person has earned in their life.

Greetings
I'll try to describe how Gods justice is at work when he punishes a person for all eternity in hell for a temporal crime". There are a few things to understand first to know the answer to that kind of question. I can shed some light on the answer, but be open minded since all this is new for so many.


In the under world there use to be 3 sections to the underworld area. The first we call hell which is call hades.
The second is the bottomless pit found in (Revelation 9:2) The bottomless pit is were the worst and most evil angels that followed satan out of heaven are Chained until the Great Judgement Day (Jude 1:6)
The third was paradise, this was the temporary place(heaven) that the rightious souls who had faith in God and those who were under that years blood scarifice went to after there life on earth was done, this place was taking away when Jesus arose from the dead and took them all to heaven were they are to this day. Ephesians 4:8-10. Those who were taken to heaven with Christ are all the old testament people in the paradise.
So Now there are only two place there only one gets bigger as I will explain. Just as our universe is always expanding and has no limits God said " hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measureIsaiah 5:14). Hell has expanded since paradise was taken out and it has no limits, if needed it could hold the whole world.
So lets review, the 3 places of the underworld, paradise-gone now, the bottomless pit-those angels that to wicked to be free, Hell(hades) is the place that the souls of the lost go until the final day of Judgement. Now that you understand what was down there, it will help you see what Hell is.
Hell (hades) is not the place the lost is judged that place would be known as Gehenna
Does a guy that breaks the Law go straight to prison right after being arrested, NO this would be a unjust action and this is not how it works he goes first to a holding cell at the local jail to await all charges to be file against him. Just like hell(hades), all are equal, no crime greater then another until Judgement day, all await there day in court. This is what Hell is being used for.

Hell is not the final place that the lost soul will stay, it is were the soul is held after the body dies because the body goes back to the dust. Everyone who dies lost will receives the same torments as all in this temporary place, there is not different degrees personal punishment in hell( hades) right now because it is just the Holding place not the final place.
There is a Day God has set aside to judge every evil work and to pass down the exact required payment that must be paid. This is were God will bring justice to each and every crime and sin ever commited.Right now during this period of time, we call the age of Grace the only sin God holds a person accountable for right now is rejecting the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and that's it. He see's every sin we do as being done thru ignorance, this allows him to have complete forgivness on every man, women, boy and girl.No matter what sins you ever did God knows you done them not understanding that they were wrong. Everytime we have done something we knew it was wrong when we were doing it, every person has a conscience, when we lie, we know it's wrong then, when a person cusses, and so on, we are all with this knowledge of right and wrong.
When a person dies lost there soul will stay in the holding cell called Hell, it's only until Gods final day of Judgement.(Rev 20:11) At this Judgement every evil, every secret, every deed, every thought, every cuss word, is added to each account. The Bible calls this Judgement, the Great White Throne judgement. When the lost appear at this judgement they will receive there bodies but this time there bodies that are made to be able to handle the terrible judgement that will be given.
Christians will have a glorified body to face there judgement, but they receive rewards at there judgement not punishment. The lost will have a soul and body to be cast in alive taking every price and tourment received in judgement according to there evil works, cast into the Lake of Fire.
Just think of how hot it could be if a person get's 1 degree of fire per offence. How many cuss words have you said, then add up the dirty thoughts, the jokes, all the people that have been affected by every bad thing you did to them, what about for every lie you have told, It makes me tremble to think of the received punishments.
Everything we do is recorded into our minds, your eyes are recording lens God records your whole life from, some who have died explain there whole life flashed before there eyes, your whole life is recorded inside your mind.Man has created great machines some can even trace every phone conversation, great records are stored on a small computer and at the push of a button, entire history of a person can be traced.
Each person as they walk through this life they are recording there own actions for a witness on that day of judgement. If a person denies they did a act that there accused of God will show it to you, he can show the exact second you did it live right before your own eyes and there will be no excuse for you to use, every small thing you have done, on that day it will be shown to all the hosts of heaven and many are going to add on to there punishment that day, because of all the lies they are going to tell him, he will be just because there will not be one thing left in the universe unpunished after this great judgement day. .
Jesus said in Matthew 12:36-37;" I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned".
After this great judgement day trial is over, all there will be cast into the Eternal prison known as The Lake of Fire.(Revelation 20:15)

Who is the Judge on that day? It will be none other then Jesus Christ Himself.
Jesus said so in John 5:22;" For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:"
Jesus made the way to be saved and because he is the salvation and the only way, God commited all judgement to him. He knows all who are his and he knows all who are not his. There will be no mistakes on the Day he judges.
John 10:24-30
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
Being saved is free, all we have to do is ask to be forgiven, no works to be done to get it, it's all paid for and it is Gods free gift. How could God make it anymore simple for us to receive. If anyone searched all the rest of the worlds religions they will have to do this kind of work or that work to go into there place, but in every other religion there is never no assurance, no promises that you will go this way, the truth is you don't, without Jesus you pay your own crimes and you'll go to the holding cells of hades. That is why Jesus told us nobody can come to heaven except by him.We have the sin infection in our blood, he didn't. That why it took him.
If I owned a house and I told everybody who wants to enter it they must come thru the front door only or be arrested . Suppose then people said he's not serious and started trying to come through my roof or window, would I be wrong to called the law, no.
Is it my fault they went to jail, NO! Why not? I tried to help let them in, I warned them theres one way in. I made the way to get in by invitation, and it wouldn't cost them one thing , but by choosing there own way to get in , they lost it all, but it all came down to there choice on how to get in. This is the same way God has done for all of man kind, he made salvation to be free and every person gets it the same way, asking Jesus.He has told us to come in thru the door and the only door is Jesus, read it.
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Is God just in what he is doing, yes when we see the big picture there is nothing left for him to do, it's up to us to decide to get in, his way or pay our own way, which will you choose.
Matthew 7:13-14 ; Jesus said , Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it
John 14:6 6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
don't miss your invitation.

 

[Rafael]

Recently I had an online conversation with my sister, who is an evangelical "Fundamentalist" Christian. I too was an evangelical Christian once, as is my entire family. You see, I love my sister dearly and she loves me. She fears that I am going to hell because I am what some of you might term a "New Ager". In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security" (i.e., "eternal security" is the belief that once you are saved, you will always be saved, even if you eventually choose to reject the evangelical perception of Jesus dying for your sins).

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. It is a "traditional" argument regarding hell and has often been discussed in many a sermon. Generally, the evangelical Christian response to that argument is that God loves us so much that he has given us free will, so that we can choose whether to be with Him or not. And besides, he loved us enough to send his son to die for us so we could be delivered from hell if we only repent and believe, etc....These arguments do not ring true for me, but they do for some. As for me, I KNOW deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist. A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too? Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son? But I digress...And let's assume we are using the "traditional" Biblical definition of hell, where people burn in agony in a lake of fire, apart from God for eternity. (Some evangelicals "soften" the definition of hell, saying that perhaps there isn't an eternal fire, perhaps you are just apart from God, or maybe you just cease to exist altogether - we'll leave those "kinder, gentler" definitions of hell alone for the time being).

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, then heaven can't exist as it is depicted in the Scriptures. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not? But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell? Indeed, knowing this, how could they truly be in heaven at all, for in their hearts, they would be suffering in hell along with me. They might not be in the fire, but they would feel it in their hearts, and after a while, heaven would no longer be heaven for them anymore.

Well, God will "fix" them, you may say. God will ensure they don't worry about their dear daughter or sister in hell. God will ENSURE they are HAPPY in heaven. It's heaven after all, right? And we are PROMISED eternal bliss in heaven.

Will God then take away their compassion? Will God then erase their empathy for another? Worse yet, will God erase their very knowledge of their daughter or sister (when he "wipes their tears away"), thus changing them into some empty being that isn't TRULY my mother or my sister??? I happen to be a mother too, and having a child has changed who I am in profound ways. If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, then I wouldn't be me anymore.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

But the truth of the matter is that if I end up in hell, in a sense, all of my loved ones end up there with me, at least in spirit. Indeed, the more you think about it, EVERYONE ends up in hell this way, at least EVERYONE who has compassion in their hearts. Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

And let's talk about a loving God, a truly loving God. Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children? Do I believe my own mother and father could send me, their child, to a hell of eternal fire and torment? Not for an instant. They could NEVER do that. I don't even thing they could do that to their WORST ENEMY, let alone their child. So if they couldn't do it, how indeed could God do so, because the love and compassion of God is supposed to be greater than that of any human being. Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

Respectfully with Peace and Love,
BridgeBuilder

People who condemn God, do so proudly by making themselves greater and more wise than the Creator of all things who should know better about what judgment is fit for each and everything He creates. That is our problem, though, and part of our fallen nature to hold up fists to the God who loved us enough to make us twice His with His own pain and suffering in the flesh of a man as Jesus.
Only God can judge correctly about the eternity of any individual, and if we really think that we can, we do so out of total ignorance, as which of us can give life to anything? Perhaps we should worry over the grass and leaves we burn, but even those we cannot animate with life.
God has shown us that He is love, the very essence and being of love, and to question His judgment over evil is something we need not do to the extent of turning away from Him and calling Him unfair or evil.
I too, have wondered about hell and remember the verse that says, "to those go the greater damnation", so if we believe the words are given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, there will be levels of punishment - some lesser and some greater, but again, who could judge other than God on these matters, knowing of His great love and mercy over possibly even the slightest contrition and repentence of heart. To "believe all things" is to believe for the best, always giving God the benefit of any doubt over His goodness.

Mt 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Lu 12:48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

 

[FallingWaters]

yeah, a loving God isn't going to torture people for billions and trillions of years in fire. many (unfortunately preachers too) have not studied hell fire prayerfully in context. the punishment for sin is death, not eternal burning, then Jesus did not pay the price.

I recommend a preaching http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=667&x=12&y=20
and if you prefer to watch a preacher go over this information: http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp go to the one called: Cities of Ash, watch, very good preaching of hell fires

I went to watch this video. It's an hour long. I find the concept very interesting and I'm going to continue to study the Bible further.

 

[BridgeBuilder]

I posted this to another forum where some people have been very scornful towards me and others have been loving...I thought some of you would find it interesting here as well...

Thanks to my experiences on this forum, today I attended a church belonging to a mainstream Christian denomination for the first time in about 6 years. The church I visited was a small-to-medium-sized Disciples of Christ church in my area (not a "megachurch" with thousands of members like I had attended years ago). The church I attended typically has about 400-500 people attend on a typical Sunday at 3 services. I have been researching Disciples of Christ on the internet, and it has over 1,000,000 members. Apparently if a church name has "Christian Church" at the end, it is often a Disciples of Christ congregation. So I would call this a "mainstream" Christian church. Look it up on the internet if you are curious.

Anyway, I thought I would share with you what happened today at church. I attended the last service of the morning at 10:45 AM. A friend attended with me. We were welcomed very warmly by a couple of the pastors when we walked in the door. The greeters were all very friendly as well. I was very honest when I filled out the attendance book, indicating that I had no church family (there was a question asking if you attended another church regularly). I even checked the boxes asking for someone to call me and that I would like to be contacted by the minister.

The music for the service was played by a very interesting band consisting of kids and adults playing guitar, banjo, harmonica and other "folk type" instruments. Various people later told me the music was rather unusual this Sunday. They played what I would call some "folk style" hymns, like you might have heard in the Appalachians years ago. I was impressed that they had kids participating with the adults.

There was also a short skit put on by some teenagers from the church regarding their youth ministry, as well as a special "children's message" where all the children of the church were asked to come up to the front and talk about Thanksgiving.

Before the main prayer and sermon, everyone sang a short piece "Jesus heal us; Jesus, Jesus hear us now." The Lord's Prayer was also said.

There was an interesting congregational reading that included the words:

"Lord, feed your people
Using our skills and conscience,
and eradicate from our politics and private lives
apathy to hunger, isolation, suffering.
Let us pray for the hungry and the fed...
May their labour not be in vain
and may we be counted in their number,
that in the presence of the Bread of Life
who refused food for himself
in order to nourish others,
we may deepen our dedication."

I thought this was very moving and showed how this congregation cares about the welfare of others, the hallmark of the loving Christian faith.

The message was given by the senior minister on Acts 8:26-40. It was noted that this passage is about reaching out to people of different backgrounds. Isn't that interesting the sermon would be on this topic, after all that has transpired on this forum? You may want to look up these verses, but I'll tell you they talk about Phillip's encounter with an Ethiopian eunuch. In the passage, Phillip and the eunuch study some of the Scriptures together, despite their differing backgrounds, and Phillip helps the eunuch to understand Christianity. Phillip is not scornful or hateful to the eunuch, who clearly comes from a very different background.

One thing the minister said that really got to me was how you don't need someone to explain scripture to you, that God guides you (in this passage, the eunuch asks Philip to explain a scriptural passage from the Book of Isaiah). I found this comment EXTREMELY interesting in light of all the discussions we have had regarding God helping to guide you to the truths in Scripture, which is what I believe. Now I will say that nothing was said in this sermon regarding whether the Bible is literally true or not, although it was referred to as "the Word of God" at one point in the service. On the church web site, there is the following statement in their beliefs section:

"We stand solidly in the Christian Faith where each person has a unique and valuable perspective of God’s word, purpose, and plan.

We challenge each other by sharing these understandings. This is a place to grow spiritually, to ask questions, and to seek answers together."​

I really enjoyed singing the hymns today. I had forgotten how much I enjoy singing hymns from my upbringing in church. All the hymns today were very meaningful to me. None were objectionable to me in any way.

After the service, there was a special lunch in Fellowship Hall, and a couple of people had asked my friend and I to stay, so we did. I had a brief chance to talk to the pastor, but after church appears to be a very busy time to say much of anything, but I at least expressed my appreciation for the message.

At the lunch, I ended up in line next to the head elder of the church, and we talked very honestly together. I was completely open and honest with everyone I talked to. I told them I hadn't gone to church in years and that my son had never gone to church at all. Everyone was VERY loving and accepting. I ended up eating lunch with the head elder. Others came by and befriended me. I talked at length with another mother regarding how I might ease my 10 year old son into church and Sunday School (his attention span just isn't good enough right now to sit through a service, he's not USED to church like I was at his age). She thought maybe an upcoming children's Christmas concert might be a good time. Or perhaps bring him to a Friday evening kids "game night". Another mother even asked her son if he would be willing to help my son get acquainted with Sunday School. Everyone was SO helpful and friendly, and they KNEW that I had not attended church in years. They were NOT scornful or supercilious or pushy. They did not command me to fall to my knees and repent in that moment. They were very kind and accepting, as I believe Christians should be.

I felt very much at home in this church, and I'm going to attend again next Sunday. I made that commitment to a few people there, and I intend to honor it. I did ask the minister to call me on the card I turned in, and I intend to be very open and honest when I get that phone call. I'm not playing any games with these people or pretending to be what I'm not.

I was also impressed with how active this church is in the community. They have several outreach programs. By the way, in case any of you are wondering, this is not a charismatic church (i.e., there was no speaking in tongues or raising of hands), nor was the service what I would call that "modern" (i.e., with a "praise band" - the band was singing pretty traditional folk hymns, I guess normally the music is more subdued because a few people mentioned that to me, but there is no organ in this church, which is interesting...).

So what do you all think? I'm curious...

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[salida]

Bridgebuilder-

If you really want to have glimpse of what heaven will be like read the book called "90 Minutes in Heaven". This is a true story of a man that did die for 90 minutes and had this wonderful experience. It also verifies how heaven has nothing to do with how we perceive it in the flesh at all. Its far far more and unspeakable to describe.

God is love and has given man many big hints about Himself. Just one example is his creation. Many times man in his pride doesn't want to listen but hang on to his way and his sin. God gives man free will.

If you really want to know the nature of God and His ways the best suggestion I can give you is start maybe reading the Bible. It is not just some good book. And/or read Examine the Evidence my Muncaster who went from an athiest to a christian. Lee Strobel(athiest to a christian) and Josh McDowell are also good authors.

If one were to choose a religious book based on intellect alone it would be the Bible. Its a spiritual decision one makes though.

 

[FallingWaters]

I posted this to another forum where some people have been very scornful towards me and others have been loving...I thought some of you would find it interesting here as well...

Thanks to my experiences on this forum, today I attended a church belonging to a mainstream Christian denomination for the first time in about 6 years. The church I visited was a small-to-medium-sized Disciples of Christ church in my area (not a "megachurch" with thousands of members like I had attended years ago). The church I attended typically has about 400-500 people attend on a typical Sunday at 3 services. I have been researching Disciples of Christ on the internet, and it has over 1,000,000 members. Apparently if a church name has "Christian Church" at the end, it is often a Disciples of Christ congregation. So I would call this a "mainstream" Christian church. Look it up on the internet if you are curious.

Anyway, I thought I would share with you what happened today at church. I attended the last service of the morning at 10:45 AM. A friend attended with me. We were welcomed very warmly by a couple of the pastors when we walked in the door. The greeters were all very friendly as well. I was very honest when I filled out the attendance book, indicating that I had no church family (there was a question asking if you attended another church regularly). I even checked the boxes asking for someone to call me and that I would like to be contacted by the minister.

The music for the service was played by a very interesting band consisting of kids and adults playing guitar, banjo, harmonica and other "folk type" instruments. Various people later told me the music was rather unusual this Sunday. They played what I would call some "folk style" hymns, like you might have heard in the Appalachians years ago. I was impressed that they had kids participating with the adults.

There was also a short skit put on by some teenagers from the church regarding their youth ministry, as well as a special "children's message" where all the children of the church were asked to come up to the front and talk about Thanksgiving.

Before the main prayer and sermon, everyone sang a short piece "Jesus heal us; Jesus, Jesus hear us now." The Lord's Prayer was also said.

There was an interesting congregational reading that included the words:

"Lord, feed your people
Using our skills and conscience,
and eradicate from our politics and private lives
apathy to hunger, isolation, suffering.
Let us pray for the hungry and the fed...
May their labour not be in vain
and may we be counted in their number,
that in the presence of the Bread of Life
who refused food for himself
in order to nourish others,
we may deepen our dedication."

I thought this was very moving and showed how this congregation cares about the welfare of others, the hallmark of the loving Christian faith.

The message was given by the senior minister on Acts 8:26-40. It was noted that this passage is about reaching out to people of different backgrounds. Isn't that interesting the sermon would be on this topic, after all that has transpired on this forum? You may want to look up these verses, but I'll tell you they talk about Phillip's encounter with an Ethiopian eunuch. In the passage, Phillip and the eunuch study some of the Scriptures together, despite their differing backgrounds, and Phillip helps the eunuch to understand Christianity. Phillip is not scornful or hateful to the eunuch, who clearly comes from a very different background.

One thing the minister said that really got to me was how you don't need someone to explain scripture to you, that God guides you (in this passage, the eunuch asks Philip to explain a scriptural passage from the Book of Isaiah). I found this comment EXTREMELY interesting in light of all the discussions we have had regarding God helping to guide you to the truths in Scripture, which is what I believe. Now I will say that nothing was said in this sermon regarding whether the Bible is literally true or not, although it was referred to as "the Word of God" at one point in the service. On the church web site, there is the following statement in their beliefs section:

"We stand solidly in the Christian Faith where each person has a unique and valuable perspective of God’s word, purpose, and plan.

We challenge each other by sharing these understandings. This is a place to grow spiritually, to ask questions, and to seek answers together."​

I really enjoyed singing the hymns today. I had forgotten how much I enjoy singing hymns from my upbringing in church. All the hymns today were very meaningful to me. None were objectionable to me in any way.

After the service, there was a special lunch in Fellowship Hall, and a couple of people had asked my friend and I to stay, so we did. I had a brief chance to talk to the pastor, but after church appears to be a very busy time to say much of anything, but I at least expressed my appreciation for the message.

At the lunch, I ended up in line next to the head elder of the church, and we talked very honestly together. I was completely open and honest with everyone I talked to. I told them I hadn't gone to church in years and that my son had never gone to church at all. Everyone was VERY loving and accepting. I ended up eating lunch with the head elder. Others came by and befriended me. I talked at length with another mother regarding how I might ease my 10 year old son into church and Sunday School (his attention span just isn't good enough right now to sit through a service, he's not USED to church like I was at his age). She thought maybe an upcoming children's Christmas concert might be a good time. Or perhaps bring him to a Friday evening kids "game night". Another mother even asked her son if he would be willing to help my son get acquainted with Sunday School. Everyone was SO helpful and friendly, and they KNEW that I had not attended church in years. They were NOT scornful or supercilious or pushy. They did not command me to fall to my knees and repent in that moment. They were very kind and accepting, as I believe Christians should be.

I felt very much at home in this church, and I'm going to attend again next Sunday. I made that commitment to a few people there, and I intend to honor it. I did ask the minister to call me on the card I turned in, and I intend to be very open and honest when I get that phone call. I'm not playing any games with these people or pretending to be what I'm not.

I was also impressed with how active this church is in the community. They have several outreach programs. By the way, in case any of you are wondering, this is not a charismatic church (i.e., there was no speaking in tongues or raising of hands), nor was the service what I would call that "modern" (i.e., with a "praise band" - the band was singing pretty traditional folk hymns, I guess normally the music is more subdued because a few people mentioned that to me, but there is no organ in this church, which is interesting...).

So what do you all think? I'm curious...

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

I looked up Disciples of Christ church to find out what they believe. I read the wiki article which we know can be written by anyone, but the wiki article made it sound fine.

Regarding the Eunuch, that passage points out the fact that sometimes we DO need someone to explain the scriptures to us... obviously the eunuch did. And if no one would have explained it to him, he would not have been saved just then.

From what you say about how the people received you and didn't seem judgemental, I would say you're off to a good start. I would go over their statement of faith with a fine toothed comb. You will probably get a better idea of their regular worship team next week.

Finding a church where you feel loved and welcomed and where you feel comfortable with the worship and where they speak the truth in the pulpit can be challenging.

God is interested in leading you to the place where you belong. Continue leaning on Him in all things.

 

[Dasdream]

I posted this to another forum where some people have been very scornful towards me and others have been loving...I thought some of you would find it interesting here as well...

Thanks to my experiences on this forum, today I attended a church belonging to a mainstream Christian denomination for the first time in about 6 years. The church I visited was a small-to-medium-sized Disciples of Christ church in my area (not a "megachurch" with thousands of members like I had attended years ago). The church I attended typically has about 400-500 people attend on a typical Sunday at 3 services. I have been researching Disciples of Christ on the internet, and it has over 1,000,000 members. Apparently if a church name has "Christian Church" at the end, it is often a Disciples of Christ congregation. So I would call this a "mainstream" Christian church. Look it up on the internet if you are curious.

Anyway, I thought I would share with you what happened today at church. I attended the last service of the morning at 10:45 AM. A friend attended with me. We were welcomed very warmly by a couple of the pastors when we walked in the door. The greeters were all very friendly as well. I was very honest when I filled out the attendance book, indicating that I had no church family (there was a question asking if you attended another church regularly). I even checked the boxes asking for someone to call me and that I would like to be contacted by the minister.

The music for the service was played by a very interesting band consisting of kids and adults playing guitar, banjo, harmonica and other "folk type" instruments. Various people later told me the music was rather unusual this Sunday. They played what I would call some "folk style" hymns, like you might have heard in the Appalachians years ago. I was impressed that they had kids participating with the adults.

There was also a short skit put on by some teenagers from the church regarding their youth ministry, as well as a special "children's message" where all the children of the church were asked to come up to the front and talk about Thanksgiving.

Before the main prayer and sermon, everyone sang a short piece "Jesus heal us; Jesus, Jesus hear us now." The Lord's Prayer was also said.

There was an interesting congregational reading that included the words:

"Lord, feed your people
Using our skills and conscience,
and eradicate from our politics and private lives
apathy to hunger, isolation, suffering.
Let us pray for the hungry and the fed...
May their labour not be in vain
and may we be counted in their number,
that in the presence of the Bread of Life
who refused food for himself
in order to nourish others,
we may deepen our dedication."

I thought this was very moving and showed how this congregation cares about the welfare of others, the hallmark of the loving Christian faith.

The message was given by the senior minister on Acts 8:26-40. It was noted that this passage is about reaching out to people of different backgrounds. Isn't that interesting the sermon would be on this topic, after all that has transpired on this forum? You may want to look up these verses, but I'll tell you they talk about Phillip's encounter with an Ethiopian eunuch. In the passage, Phillip and the eunuch study some of the Scriptures together, despite their differing backgrounds, and Phillip helps the eunuch to understand Christianity. Phillip is not scornful or hateful to the eunuch, who clearly comes from a very different background.

One thing the minister said that really got to me was how you don't need someone to explain scripture to you, that God guides you (in this passage, the eunuch asks Philip to explain a scriptural passage from the Book of Isaiah). I found this comment EXTREMELY interesting in light of all the discussions we have had regarding God helping to guide you to the truths in Scripture, which is what I believe. Now I will say that nothing was said in this sermon regarding whether the Bible is literally true or not, although it was referred to as "the Word of God" at one point in the service. On the church web site, there is the following statement in their beliefs section:

"We stand solidly in the Christian Faith where each person has a unique and valuable perspective of God’s word, purpose, and plan.

We challenge each other by sharing these understandings. This is a place to grow spiritually, to ask questions, and to seek answers together."​

I really enjoyed singing the hymns today. I had forgotten how much I enjoy singing hymns from my upbringing in church. All the hymns today were very meaningful to me. None were objectionable to me in any way.

After the service, there was a special lunch in Fellowship Hall, and a couple of people had asked my friend and I to stay, so we did. I had a brief chance to talk to the pastor, but after church appears to be a very busy time to say much of anything, but I at least expressed my appreciation for the message.

At the lunch, I ended up in line next to the head elder of the church, and we talked very honestly together. I was completely open and honest with everyone I talked to. I told them I hadn't gone to church in years and that my son had never gone to church at all. Everyone was VERY loving and accepting. I ended up eating lunch with the head elder. Others came by and befriended me. I talked at length with another mother regarding how I might ease my 10 year old son into church and Sunday School (his attention span just isn't good enough right now to sit through a service, he's not USED to church like I was at his age). She thought maybe an upcoming children's Christmas concert might be a good time. Or perhaps bring him to a Friday evening kids "game night". Another mother even asked her son if he would be willing to help my son get acquainted with Sunday School. Everyone was SO helpful and friendly, and they KNEW that I had not attended church in years. They were NOT scornful or supercilious or pushy. They did not command me to fall to my knees and repent in that moment. They were very kind and accepting, as I believe Christians should be.

I felt very much at home in this church, and I'm going to attend again next Sunday. I made that commitment to a few people there, and I intend to honor it. I did ask the minister to call me on the card I turned in, and I intend to be very open and honest when I get that phone call. I'm not playing any games with these people or pretending to be what I'm not.

I was also impressed with how active this church is in the community. They have several outreach programs. By the way, in case any of you are wondering, this is not a charismatic church (i.e., there was no speaking in tongues or raising of hands), nor was the service what I would call that "modern" (i.e., with a "praise band" - the band was singing pretty traditional folk hymns, I guess normally the music is more subdued because a few people mentioned that to me, but there is no organ in this church, which is interesting...).

So what do you all think? I'm curious...

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

I don't see why or how anyone could be upset over this. the Lord works in many ways and I am glad he was able to touch your heart in that day. I do want to prepare you that not everyone you meet will be that nice. Always remember that we live for God no for the people and do not base your faith by the attitude of others. I am very proud of these people that treated you with alot of respect. See God has entered your heart because you opened the door to your heart for him to enter. Nice Jobby

 

[Key]

I posted this to another forum where some people have been very scornful towards me and others have been loving...I thought some of you would find it interesting here as well...

Thanks to my experiences on this forum, today I attended a church belonging to a mainstream Christian denomination for the first time in about 6 years. The church I visited was a small-to-medium-sized Disciples of Christ church in my area (not a "megachurch" with thousands of members like I had attended years ago). The church I attended typically has about 400-500 people attend on a typical Sunday at 3 services. I have been researching Disciples of Christ on the internet, and it has over 1,000,000 members. Apparently if a church name has "Christian Church" at the end, it is often a Disciples of Christ congregation. So I would call this a "mainstream" Christian church. Look it up on the internet if you are curious.

Anyway, I thought I would share with you what happened today at church. I attended the last service of the morning at 10:45 AM. A friend attended with me. We were welcomed very warmly by a couple of the pastors when we walked in the door. The greeters were all very friendly as well. I was very honest when I filled out the attendance book, indicating that I had no church family (there was a question asking if you attended another church regularly). I even checked the boxes asking for someone to call me and that I would like to be contacted by the minister.

The music for the service was played by a very interesting band consisting of kids and adults playing guitar, banjo, harmonica and other "folk type" instruments. Various people later told me the music was rather unusual this Sunday. They played what I would call some "folk style" hymns, like you might have heard in the Appalachians years ago. I was impressed that they had kids participating with the adults.

There was also a short skit put on by some teenagers from the church regarding their youth ministry, as well as a special "children's message" where all the children of the church were asked to come up to the front and talk about Thanksgiving.

Before the main prayer and sermon, everyone sang a short piece "Jesus heal us; Jesus, Jesus hear us now." The Lord's Prayer was also said.

There was an interesting congregational reading that included the words:

"Lord, feed your people
Using our skills and conscience,
and eradicate from our politics and private lives
apathy to hunger, isolation, suffering.
Let us pray for the hungry and the fed...
May their labour not be in vain
and may we be counted in their number,
that in the presence of the Bread of Life
who refused food for himself
in order to nourish others,
we may deepen our dedication."

I thought this was very moving and showed how this congregation cares about the welfare of others, the hallmark of the loving Christian faith.

The message was given by the senior minister on Acts 8:26-40. It was noted that this passage is about reaching out to people of different backgrounds. Isn't that interesting the sermon would be on this topic, after all that has transpired on this forum? You may want to look up these verses, but I'll tell you they talk about Phillip's encounter with an Ethiopian eunuch. In the passage, Phillip and the eunuch study some of the Scriptures together, despite their differing backgrounds, and Phillip helps the eunuch to understand Christianity. Phillip is not scornful or hateful to the eunuch, who clearly comes from a very different background.

One thing the minister said that really got to me was how you don't need someone to explain scripture to you, that God guides you (in this passage, the eunuch asks Philip to explain a scriptural passage from the Book of Isaiah). I found this comment EXTREMELY interesting in light of all the discussions we have had regarding God helping to guide you to the truths in Scripture, which is what I believe. Now I will say that nothing was said in this sermon regarding whether the Bible is literally true or not, although it was referred to as "the Word of God" at one point in the service. On the church web site, there is the following statement in their beliefs section:

"We stand solidly in the Christian Faith where each person has a unique and valuable perspective of God’s word, purpose, and plan.

We challenge each other by sharing these understandings. This is a place to grow spiritually, to ask questions, and to seek answers together."​

I really enjoyed singing the hymns today. I had forgotten how much I enjoy singing hymns from my upbringing in church. All the hymns today were very meaningful to me. None were objectionable to me in any way.

After the service, there was a special lunch in Fellowship Hall, and a couple of people had asked my friend and I to stay, so we did. I had a brief chance to talk to the pastor, but after church appears to be a very busy time to say much of anything, but I at least expressed my appreciation for the message.

At the lunch, I ended up in line next to the head elder of the church, and we talked very honestly together. I was completely open and honest with everyone I talked to. I told them I hadn't gone to church in years and that my son had never gone to church at all. Everyone was VERY loving and accepting. I ended up eating lunch with the head elder. Others came by and befriended me. I talked at length with another mother regarding how I might ease my 10 year old son into church and Sunday School (his attention span just isn't good enough right now to sit through a service, he's not USED to church like I was at his age). She thought maybe an upcoming children's Christmas concert might be a good time. Or perhaps bring him to a Friday evening kids "game night". Another mother even asked her son if he would be willing to help my son get acquainted with Sunday School. Everyone was SO helpful and friendly, and they KNEW that I had not attended church in years. They were NOT scornful or supercilious or pushy. They did not command me to fall to my knees and repent in that moment. They were very kind and accepting, as I believe Christians should be.

I felt very much at home in this church, and I'm going to attend again next Sunday. I made that commitment to a few people there, and I intend to honor it. I did ask the minister to call me on the card I turned in, and I intend to be very open and honest when I get that phone call. I'm not playing any games with these people or pretending to be what I'm not.

I was also impressed with how active this church is in the community. They have several outreach programs. By the way, in case any of you are wondering, this is not a charismatic church (i.e., there was no speaking in tongues or raising of hands), nor was the service what I would call that "modern" (i.e., with a "praise band" - the band was singing pretty traditional folk hymns, I guess normally the music is more subdued because a few people mentioned that to me, but there is no organ in this church, which is interesting...).

So what do you all think? I'm curious...

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

Sounds Like a Place to Call "Home".

Best wishes on your new journey, I hope it serves you well.

Keep us posted, let the love flow, and follow the path that life has given you.

God Bless.

Key

 

[BelindaP]

God is working in your life. I am so glad that this forum helped you in a small way to find a church that may very well be a good home for you.

The Disciples of Christ church is a very solid church, and I encourage you to make them your home.

 

[Rafael]

yeah, a loving God isn't going to torture people for billions and trillions of years in fire. many (unfortunately preachers too) have not studied hell fire prayerfully in context. the punishment for sin is death, not eternal burning, then Jesus did not pay the price.

I recommend a preaching http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=667&x=12&y=20
and if you prefer to watch a preacher go over this information: http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/storacle_lessons.asp go to the one called: Cities of Ash, watch, very good preaching of hell fires

By the way, Rocklife, I went and listened and wrote down all the scriptures of the teaching you shared here in your post. Excellent, I learn something new everyday! I feel very good that this is the correct meaning of this subject in the Bible and that the Bible says over and over that death or life are the two choices given - not eternal punishment. Each scriptural passage that might oppose is given a clear answer for context and meaning. Fire that is not quenched accomplishes its task of destruction while the Greek word Eon or "forever" is often used in the scriptures as an expression of unspecified time, as some people where made bond servant to people "forever" - meaning in the Greek or Hebrew an unspecified period of time. It is good news that God does not torture people or even the devil for eternity ......

 

[PRMan]

First, I am so glad that you found a church you like. Praise God.

Just to get back to the question, however, I thought maybe some verses that show the eternity of punishment in hell (the lake of fire) might be in order.

Mark 9
47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

This certainly implies that although you might wish that your punishment will end, it never does.

And if that isn't clear enough...

Matthew 25
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

And, from Paul...

2 Thessalonians 1
8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Jude
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Revelation 21
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever....
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

At the very least, the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and be tormented forever and ever. I certainly hope they don't have any Christian relatives.

But then the Bible says that those that do not believe in Christ will be put in the same place! This, coupled with statements made by Jesus, Paul, Jude and John make it very clear to me that like it or not, that's the way it is.

 

[Ibsaintly1]

This certainly implies that although you might wish that your punishment will end, it never does.

This certainly "implies" that you do not understand the scriptures nor the heart of God.

Endless torture is the devils idea, not God's.

Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly. So then if you don't believe in him, you must fry in unspeakable pain for trillions of neverending years. The punishment does not fit the crime.

And just think of all those poor immortal worms. What did they do to deserve hell? Did they reject Jesus? Maybe they only heard of him from Kooky sounding Christians who believe their God is worse than the devil.

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Dear Ibsaintly1,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for expressing those thoughts. Indeed, how could a loving God create a place of eternal torment? It makes no sense whatsoever to me....and it certainly DOES make me question the 100% inerrancy of the Bible as we know it today.

If I had to believe in such a horrendous concept to be a Christian, I might as well stop going to church right now because I will never believe a loving God could do such a thing. Fortunately, I'm going to continue going to church because I have faith in a loving God, and my faith grows stronger each and every day. I'm going to continue to read the Bible too because I have faith that God will guide me to the truths in the Bible.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[MikeMcK]

I too was an evangelical Christian once

But are you born again?

We use the terms "Christian" and "born again" as though they're the same thing. They're not and the distinction is a very important one.

You say that you were a Christian, but are you born again?

She fears that I am going to hell because I am what some of you might term a "New Ager". In her eyes, I have rejected "the Word of God", although she and my mother place some hope in the doctrine of "eternal security"

Eternal security is true. The problem is that the Bible tells us that there are those who are false converts and were not saved in the first place. If someone is willing to abandon Christ, such as you say that you have, then I think that falls under the category of the seeds that were sown, but never took root.

And so we had a conversation. It was about hell. Because I believe that despite what the Bible says, hell cannot possibly exist.

So, if the Bible is not to be trusted, then back when you say that you were a Christian, what were you basing that claim on?

I'm sure all of you have heard the argument that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist.

Yes. It's a false argument because it assumes that God is only loving and not righteous or just, which the Bible tells us that He is.

As for me, I KNOW deep in my heart that a truly loving God would NEVER allow a place like hell to exist.

"Deep in your heart"? This is the same heart that the Bible calls "deceitful" and "wicked", is it not?

A truly loving God would not even send THE DEVIL to hell, for do you think for one moment (assuming for now that the devil exists) that God does not love the devil too?

God's consigning someone to Hell has nothing to do with His lack of love for them.

God is loving, but He is equally Holy, and Righteous and Just.

His holiness demands that there be a moral code.

His justice demands that violations of that moral code be punished.

Is not the devil indeed like God's prodigal son?

No, he isn't.

My fundamental theory is that if hell exists, then heaven can't exist as it is depicted in the Scriptures. How can that be, you say? Belief in Jesus GUARANTEES us a place in heaven, does it not?

No. We're not saved by belief in Jesus.

We're saved by repentance and faith in Jesus' atonement on the cross and resurrection.

But let's talk about my sister for a moment. Let's talk about my mother. My mother, assuming she doesn't have enough doubt in her heart to keep her out of heaven, believes Christ has saved her from her sins and she is going to heaven. Same with my sister. OK, let's assume some day indeed heaven is where they go, as promised in the Scriptures. And let's assume that my belief in Jesus was never quite strong enough to guarantee me a place in heaven. Let's just assume I'm going to hell.

False premise.

My fundamental premise is simply this. How could my mother and sister be happy in heaven if they know their dear loved one is suffering eternally in hell?

First, the Bible tells us that while we will know one another in Heaven, we will not have the same sort of relationships as we do on Earth.

There will still be love - greater love, in fact - but not the same emotional attachment.

The second thing we see in scripture is that now, we only see as though looking through a darkened glass. That is, because of our flesh, we're not able to comprehend the whole picture.

But in Heaven, we will be made like Christ and will seethe wickedness of man and why God is obligated to punish it. We will also see that everyone in Hell had more than ample opportunities to be saved, but turned them down.

We will see that it was a choice that they made and, like God, we will respect that choice.

If I earned a place in heaven and my child was in hell, and God somehow erased my memory of my child or my compassion for my child, then I wouldn't be me anymore.

If you're that worried about your child going to Hell, then the best solution would be to repent, get right with God, put your faith in Jesus Christ and His atonement on the cross, and raise your child in the fear and admonition of the Lord so that they'll have an opportunity to be saved, too.

Indeed, my mother loves me so much that she might even try to make a trade. She might even try to take my place in hell so that my suffering could come to an end. Indeed, my parents might even want to do a "two for one" trade, they love me so much. So great is the love of a parent for a child. We digress again, for yes, I know, you might say..."That's silly. God would never allow such a thing." etc....

If God is just, then it would be just as wrong for Him to allow a righteous person to go to Hell as it would to allow a sinner to escape punishment.

Is this what a loving God would allow? I think not.

Strawman.

Remember, we are all God's children. Even the angels are God's children, and yes, that even means the devil (assuming the devil exists) is God's child too. Does not God love his children?

You say that we're all God's children, but that's not your call to make.

God says something entirely different. He tells us that we're not His children, that we're enemies of His until we come to faith in Christ and are adopted as His children.

Indeed, how could my parents, mere "sinful" human beings, be more compassionate and loving than God himself? That is a contradiction.

Why? You're claiming that they're more righteous and more just than God. So why not more compassionate?

So I'm seeking an answer to my question from Christians who do believe in the fiery brimstone version of hell: How can anyone be happy in heaven if they know people they love are suffering eternally in hell?

See above.

 

[BridgeBuilder]

Mike,

Thanks for your responses. I did indeed repent long ago and accept Jesus as my savior. Whether or not it was "sincere enough" to qualify for "eternal security" (if such a thing existed) is not for anyone else to judge. I know it is common for evangelical Christians to say that if you abandon Christianity, you must never have believed in the first place. But again, that's not for anyone to judge, and I feel it is very presumptuous of anyone to make this judgement call. I know in my heart I was sincere at the time, whether you believe it or not. And I grew up in an evangelical church which taught the Bible was the 100% inerrant Word of God (it was an Evangelical Free Church, to be exact, if you want to look up the denomination). The only thing controversial about this church was that they took things a step further than some churches and believed in predestination. But they most certainly taught the Bible and salvation the way you believe it should be taught, predestination aside.

There really is no point in debating all that you say here since I know you are very strong in your beliefs (we're not supposed to have debates in this forum anyway, I've been informed recently by a moderator, and I never know what crosses the line into "debate"). All I can say is that we are at an impasse since I simply do not agree with you. In my opinion, no loving God (even a "righteous" God) would allow a place of eternal torture to exist for any of the beings he has created. I am very solid in this belief, so solid that indeed I am thankfully no longer worried about myself or my son going to hell, and THAT takes A LOT of faith given my upbringing (yes, from your point of view, I am risking eternal torture for both me and my son, yet my FAITH is so strong that this cannot exist in the presenced of a loving God, I can take that "risk", for it is no "risk"). I will not believe what I perceive to be a faulty and cruel doctrine simply out of fear, a loving God would never expect that of me or anyone.

Again, we do not agree. But that is just my belief, which is why I'm posting on the non-Christian forum (even though as a matter of fact, I DO consider myself a Christian again, though not by your definition, or likely by the definition of the people who run this board, so I will stay within the confines of the non-Christian forum for now).

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

 

[BelindaP]

Fortunately, your eternal salvation is not affected by whether you believe in enternal damnation or not. It only requires that you believe in Christ as your savior.

That is why so many Christians are going to be surprised when they get to heaven and see so many others they were sure were condemned to hell forever there. Keep up the good work both of you. You both have something to bring to these forums.

 

[Ibsaintly1]

Dear Ibsaintly1,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for expressing those thoughts. Indeed, how could a loving God create a place of eternal torment? It makes no sense whatsoever to me....and it certainly DOES make me question the 100% inerrancy of the Bible as we know it today.

If I had to believe in such a horrendous concept to be a Christian, I might as well stop going to church right now because I will never believe a loving God could do such a thing. Fortunately, I'm going to continue going to church because I have faith in a loving God, and my faith grows stronger each and every day. I'm going to continue to read the Bible too because I have faith that God will guide me to the truths in the Bible.

God Bless You,
BridgeBuilder

Your quite welcome! I know what it is like to be a "Born Again" "Christian" who does not believe in the false doctrine of Hell. ( I put born again and christian in quotes because we have been labeled with these words that are hardly mentioned in the Bible. I prefer "believer" to both of these terms).

I love God and His holy word and going to church is great too. We are to fellowship with one another and learn from each other, lift up and edify one another.

But when Christians (as sincere as they may be) start in on "God is loving, but He is also a just God" and then justify the endless torture of those He created and loves that just deserves a rebuke.

Anyway, Be blessed and trust in the God of Love. There is no fear in love, for perfect love casts out fear.