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Featured Question about Gift of Prophecy

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by PrettyboyAndy, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    This comment definitely confirms my conviction that cessationism is a spirit that is not from God.

    Last year a short-term missionary team from our church went to Papua New Guinea. When they reported back to the church nearly every member of the team had been used to perform a miracle such as a withered hand being straightened out and a child who could not walk being able to walk.

    A couple of nurses in Africa on a mission expedition were confronted with an African woman in a bush hospital. She presented them with her DEAD baby and said that she had been to the witch doctor and he had been unsuccessful in bringing the child back to life.

    She said to them that if their God could bring her son back to life, she would become a follower of their God. The two nurses prayed for the baby and it came back to life. Not only did the mother follow their God, all the village did.

    But I realise when you are controlled by a spirit of cessation, you have to deny, without proof, any of this happened.
     
  2. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    You said and I quote "Jesus was not contentious.."

    And I did not call a particular person stupid. Just another one of your spins that you are so good at.
     
  3. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    It is so very interesting, don't you think, that these supposed miracles always happen in some far outback distant place. Then when these miracle workers return home, somehow they cannot heal the cripples, somehow they cannot walk on water, somehow they cannot bring back the dead. Then they go back out to the far reaches and sure enough the "miracles" happen again. Passed on by the word of people. In the age of information, cameras, internet, nothing ever caught on film by chance.

    Just for your information, Jesus and the disciples did their miracles so many could see. Why does this not happen anymore? I'm sorry but you have been bamboozled. They have pulled a fast one on you and you wanted to believe it so bad you did so without evidence. Do the scriptures not tell us to test the spirits?

    The very same way you try to do with me. No, you need to stop deflecting and you need to bring something to the table for once. Not just your word.

    I never said you directly did. I said "indirectly" to the gentleman called gingerbeer. Where it be directed or not, it is still considered "contentious". If I misinterpreted that as just a general statement not in any way directed to him, then my apologies. However, it sure seemed like it. I suppose I could find the post if you need a refresher. It wasn't too far back.

    In any case. I suppose we are done here? I mean, you still have not answered my simplest questions nor provided any evidence still. Just your opinions and hearsay.

    I give my thanks to you and wish you a wonderful week.
     
  4. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Did you know that there was a case where Jesus could not do miracles because he could not find faith present? According to your theology, Jesus is a failure.

    Thank you for proving that your main concern is to invent spin to rubbish miracles. However genuine, you will find a reason why they are not or cast aspersions on them.

    Definitely, a Spirit of cessation at work when genuine miracles are rubbished in the name of doctrinal purity.

    The youth group is back in Papua New Guinea and in the few days they have been there over 200 people have been saved. I would love to hear from you that it is, of course, a figment of our imagination as it was all an emotional response.

    Nearer to home, a young man in our fellowship went to some Bill Johnson meetings being held locally and when he went forward for prayer he stood next to another young man who only had one hand. Whilst Bill prayed over those who had come forward for healing, he SAW the young man grow another hand.

    I do realise that according to your ideology that he was imagining things and he should have taken a camera with him to photograph the event which of course he did not know was going to happen.

    So do tell me what you are doing for the Lord beside rubbishing miracles and telling us that the miracles that happen today are not happening.
     
  5. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    So you did say that Jesus was not contentious.
     
  6. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    This statement might have worked on me if I didn't know scripture.

    You must have thought this due to Matthew 13. The reason this happened is because they flat out rejected Him.

    However, you missed scripture such as this

    John 4:45; John 4:48; John 20:31; Mark 16:20

    Simon in Acts 8 believed "beholding the miracles and signs which were done".

    Speaking of Simon and that event in Acts 8, to receive these miraculous gifts, one would have to have been granted these gifts through the laying on of hands from the apostles. Simon saw that Philip laid hands on people and they received the gifts. Simon wanted this as well for monetary gains and inquired to have hands laid on him as well but was rebuked.

    2 Timothy 1:6 also supports the fact that someone would need an apostle to lay hands before gifts are received.

    Do you know of any apostles alive today capable of spreading these miracle working gifts today? Did "Bill Johnson" have an apostle lay hands on him so he could work miracles?

    Doubtful since there are no more apostles alive today. Miracles are ceased my friend, 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

    Why? Because 1 Corinthians 13:11


    Until there is proof, these are lying wonders. Miracles in the first century were done so that people would believe, not so that people already believing would believe, according to some scripture above I provided.

    I am happy you wish to continue our discussion, but you still cannot provide anything to the table other than hearsay.

    Do you believe the bible is Gods word?

    Do you believe that God's word is perfect?

    Do you believe the bible as the only authority?

    What is the perfect law of liberty (James 1:25)?

    What is "that which is perfect" (1 Cor. 13:10)?
     
  7. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    Miracles have not ceased in the world I inhabit. They have only ceased in the world of people who live in denial which cessationists are.

    FYI, I Cor 13:11 says nothing at all about miracles ceasing. That is your spin on the verse because you cannot allow your false theology to be challenged. You obviously make the scripture say what you want it to say.

    You have tripped over your cessationist feet again because I said the woman who brought her dead baby to be prayed for was not a believer, but I am sure you are going to make up an excuse why she doesn't count.

    I do believe that calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan as you have done (lying wonders) is the unforgivable sin.

    Seeing something happen is not hearsay. I don't know why you want evidence anyway. if you believe that miracles do not happen, then no evidence is needed for something that has not happened.

    I do hope your unforgivable sin doesn't mess up your world of unbelief. Probably not as it is messed up already believing that God has no power over his creation.
     
  8. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    So you have seen, and there is proof of events such as this definition described?

    "A miracle is an event which the forces of nature—including the natural powers of man—cannot of themselves produce, and which must, therefore, be referred to a supernatural agency (Fisher 1900, 9)."

    What Does the Bible Say About Miracles?

    I can tell you even before you read this (if you do read it), that this does not happen anymore.

    No, you misread yet again. I said 1 Cor. 13:11 is a reason WHY miracles do not happen anymore. Check my previous post and read it again. If you misread what I say repeatedly as you have, its no wonder you cannot understand 1 Cor. 13.

    1 Cor. 13:8-10 DOES SAY that miracles will cease. In plain words and sentences even my young son can understand. It marvels me how people cannot follow what it clearly says.

    No tripping up here. I said "first century people". This is not first century.

    What I am saying is without any evidence, that you somehow refuse to bring to the table, it is all hearsay. It is something that needs to be "proved" and "tested" just as scripture says. If it cannot be proved or tested as scripture says, then just as scripture says, lying wonders.

    Scripture such as 2 Timothy 4:3-4 comes to mind in this matter with you. Scripture is quite easy to read and follow. It is made hard by those who decided to not continue in its doctrine and switch things up.

    I am still waiting on that evidence..................................

    Yet again, you avoid my questions. Go figure. They are very simple questions, especially for one such as yourself who lectures about the scripture.

    Hmmm, in none of the posts you have made have you said that YOU seen this. Is your story changing now? Yet you still provide me nothing. Not even a link. Not even a photo shopped picture. Nothing. Just insults. I've gone from relaxed and happy to flat out laughing. Not at you though, because it is just a sad situation. I laugh at the false idea you support.

    Another problem you run into is that even if YOU have seen this, you still cannot provide a repeat of the same miracle or any other such proof. Paul could bring people back from the dead all day long if he wish. So why cannot Bill Johnson bring back to peak health, cripples, in front of multitudes of people so that others may believe?

    Miracles were done in the first century, so that people may believe. Why can this not happen anymore?

    Well, nevermind. you never answer my questions anyway. It is virtually a one sided conversation anyway aside from the snarky and belittling comments and occasional unsupported hypothesis you provide.

    I bid you a great and wonderful day/week/month/year etc whatever, until if and when we meet again here.
     
  9. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I never really followed the posts outside of swordsman1 and me but this one caught my eye. This is like God saying to Abraham, "Would like to give you the gift of prophecy but can't do it because I currently don't have an apostle to lay hands on you."

    Sure, if God already HAS an apostle in place, He likes to use hands-laying to help establish, and corroborate, a chain of authority (and also for sacramental reasons that I can't discuss here). But this doesn't mean that miracles are possible ONLY if apostles exist. I'll admit I'm not seeing an abundance of miracles today but I think that's because the church has been way off track.

    Just surprised me that someone would think that way...
     
  10. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,
    I would agree with you except for 2 facts:

    1- In all the new testament, no one gets the miraculous gifts except by an apostle laying hands on them.

    There are only two other accounts, Acts 2 and Acts 10, that they do not have hands laid on them but this is because it was prophesied. To explain a little of what I mean by that.

    In Mat 16, Jesus told Peter that he would have the keys to the kingdom/church. He told Peter that upon Peters confession (rock) that he would accomplish this. In scripture you will notice it says "to the Jew first" then to the Gentiles. Acts 2 was to the Jews first and Acts 10 was to the Gentiles with Cornelius and his household. Those two events were the only exception.

    Nowhere else in the NT do you see people receiving miraculous gifts without the disciples laying hands.

    2- In 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, we are specifically told that these miraculous gifts would cease when "that which is perfect comes". This refers to the gospels completion. James put it like this in James 1:25. 2 Timothy 3:16 describes the gospel basically as perfect.

    With Revelation being the last book in the bible to be finished, miraculous gifts have ceased since its completion. Also, John being the last of the apostles, died a short time after.


    Side note: Christ's church/kingdom never went off track to those who uphold and obey the entire gospel in its context. Church in the Greek is not a building but the people/believers/followers of Christ. If a church did go off track, they are no longer in Christs kingdom. This is where denominationalism comes into play, meaning "separate and apart from the original". Galatians 1:6-10 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 comes to mind for those that pick and choose what they wish to believe in or not when it comes to the gospel.
     
  11. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I furnished a reason for that general pattern. But I think it makes sense for God to keep His options open. I don't think He has much to gain by tying His own hands, denying Himself the right to do miracles except via apostles. Do you never pray for God's assistance/intervention? Because any such supernatural intervention would seem to count as miraculous.

    As I recall, that passage refers to prophecy, knowledge, and tongues. I'm not convinced that it refers to miraculous gifts in general.
     
  12. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, God is the almighty and He could do what so ever He wishes, however, the gospel is His word. It is perfect. He also does not lie. So when the bible says that the miraculous gifts will end once the scriptures are completed, then by His word, they will most certainly cease. If God were to allow the miraculous gifts to continue after He said they would end, then God would be a liar right?

    There are 9 miraculous gifts all together found in the scripture. Did Paul have to mention ALL of them for anyone to finally accept it?

    You must accept that either ALL the gifts are still in use or none of them. Also, the miraculous gifts were used so that people may believe. So why do we not see any of these gifts now days? Now days, people claim to have visions and prophesy, they claim to have healing powers, yet when put to the test, they cannot provide. They always say, "you lack the faith" as their most typical and common excuse. However, do they realize verses such as this one?

    And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed (Mark 16:20).

    "Confirming the word" everywhere is what this is saying. This means that people SAW the miracles THEN believed. The false teachers of today that claim "you lack faith" obviously missed this part.

    Jesus and the disciples used miracles, signs, and wonders to confirm the word. We no longer need the word confirmed because it is complete.

    More to consider:

    "As noted scholar W.E. Vine observed:

    With the completion of Apostolic testimony and the completion of the Scriptures of truth (“the faith once for all delivered to the saints”, Jude 3. R.V.), “that which is perfect” had come, and the temporary gifts were done away (1951, 184)."

    More detailed information here:
    What Does the Bible Say About Miracles?

    By the way, I appreciate your kind and engaging discussion. If I don't get back to you tonight (night to me), then I bid you a wonderful night until we meet again.
     
  13. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    Yes God would be a liar if He so contradicted Himself. But certainly those words aren't in the Bible. That's a very questionable inference on your part. Again, do you ever pray for God's assistance/intervention? And if so, isn't this a conflict with your assumption that He is no longer supernaturally involved with us?


    Perhaps not, but it would certainly have helped your case a little, I mean if you're claiming to have proven something here.

    I'm not sure those are the only two choices. For example suppose He terminated the gift of tongues, I don't see why He couldn't still heal the sick.

    We no longer really 'need' anything. Nothing is 'strictly necessary' (not even pastors) given God's power. But that isn't a strong basis for rejecting everything.

    Also you're not really understanding the dynamics, in my opinion. Signs confirm the gospel by providing feelings of certainty (what I call the conscience). Since the Holy Spirit can (and does) create feelings of certainty with or without signs (the so-called Inward Witness), they were never 'strictly necessary' to confirm the gospel and thus can only be a matter of God's PERSONAL PREFERENCE. And since Yahweh hasn't changed, He would't have terminated the gifts - is He His own worst enemy?

    Apostles and prophets disappeared for several reasons:
    (1) A lack of qualified candidates.
    (2) Insufficient prayer to continue eliciting reviving outpourings that help breed qualified candidates.
    (3) Inappropriate methodology. Most churches are founded and run on a fundamental intellectual dishonesty, "We know what we're doing. We know how to run a church and church services", instead of waiting upon God for directions via revelation/prophecy. You can't expect God to build much upon a intellectually dishonest platform that incessantly shoves man-made religious practices down His throat.

    For example a 'church' that I used to attend had a choir. Did the leader really have a solid biblical basis for a choir? Did he know for 100% sure that such was the will of God? No. But he PRETENDED to know such. So I ask you, how much revival - how many miracles for instance - can one really hope to see ignited in this kind of environment?

    I've expressed some objections to this point of view on this thread already. Not sure I want to rehash all that now.
     
  14. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    You are wasting your time with Acts 2:38 Jal. He is convinced that God has no power to do anything that involves supernatural power so he has to invent things that he claims are in the bible to support his heresies.

    Even when you point out this fact all he does is invent more heresies to cover up his original heresies. And you will notice that he is never wrong and that everyone that is not a cessationist is always wrong.

    I have never come across someone who has invented more furphies about the word of God as I have with this bloke.

    He accuses me of not answering his questions but they are sheer arrogance implying that he is so superior to everyone else and treats everyone else like kindergarten kids who know nothing.

    I asked him what he is doing for the Lord apart from rubbishing the supernatural and as yet no answer, so his self-righteous demands fall on deaf ears. The truth is he is probably doing nothing at all except criticising everyone who does not see things his way.
     
  15. Episaw

    Episaw Always learning

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    And I can tell you that it does happen.

    And you avoid my question which is what are you doing for the Lord????
     
  16. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Good day to you.

    I read your entire previous post, but the below quoted is where I see the important questions and main conversation. If I missed a question elsewhere just let me know. For now I will table the rest and focus on the below.

    Before I forget again, I'll see to your questions then move from there.

    Prayer is a part of Christian life. We were told verses such as "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess.5:17). So I most certainly pray for many things. I also understand that it is in God's own time and that it is His will if things happen or not. I see no conflict in verses such as Eph 1:3 among others. Prayer is a spiritual blessing for those who are in Christ. He gives according to needs not wants in His own due time and His will.

    The conflict I see, is that people have trouble with discerning the miracles that use to be. That completely went against the natural order of things.

    An amputee can pray all he/she wishes to, to get their limb back. However, it will not happen.

    A man that has never walked all his life, stuck in a wheel chair, can pray all he wants to. However, he will not just get up instantly and start walking, running, and jumping around rejoicing from and instantaneous heal that went against the natural order of things.

    Why?

    Because those miracles, those gifts that the people had in the first century, are no longer.

    Now, there may be medicines later on, or machine devises later on, that can help these people, but that is not a miracle. People with MS for example, use to just have to deal with eventually being wheelchair bound. Recently this year, after about 40 years of research by a certain doctor, they discovered a medicine by injection once every 6 months that some people have tested in the trial run and no longer have MS. Others are 80% better and can function in a normal life environment. Others still need a crutch to walk, but feel a whole lot better than being wheelchair bound. And that was just the trial run. It hit the market mid this year.

    That is not a miracle.

    A miracle goes against the confines of nature. Against the natural order of things. Humans do not grow limbs back like starfish. A man touching an amputee, and then they instantly have a fresh new limb again. Someone who fell out a 2 story building breaking their neck and dying, suddenly being touched by a man and they wake up and go about their business. Those are the miracles we are talking about.

    They do not happen anymore. Those gifts are not passed on anymore. They ceased.

    Questions:

    1-Has the word been confirmed?

    2-Did the Spirit of truth guide the apostles “into all the truth?

    If “yes,” then there is no more truth to be revealed, and therefore no more need for inspired revelations from the Holy Spirit. If “yes,” then there are no more prophecies from the Lord.

    The prophets have spoken.

    Comment from John:
    I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book” (Revelation 22:18-19).
     
  17. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    You seem to be saying, "Anything that LOOKS like an obvious miracle can't happen" but you would be open to the people in a country-in-famine praying for rain because, if God sends the rain, it is not an OBVIOUS miracle, it doesn't LOOK like a miracle so it would be okay. As James says:

    "Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops."

    It's not easy to qualify as an Elijah because power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A lack of qualified candidates is the real reason you won't see a lot of obvious miracles. But it would still be a miracle, if God responded deliberately to the prayers of a nation, even if it didn't LOOK like a miracle. You seem to be making arbitrary distinctions between what God can and cannot do today. If you admit He answers prayer today, then miracles still happen. Period.

    Yes. The Inward Witness confirmed the words of Moses. He still is needed to confirm any prophecies of today. Correct.

    Correct. This is a perfect model for us to seek today. If I don't receive that same Counselor (prophetic gift) to guide me into all truth, I'll make the same kinds of exegetical mistakes that the apostles did prior to receiving that gift.

    See above.

    It would be false authorship for anyone to add another chapter to John's Book of Prophecy. Correct again.
     
  18. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hello again,

    I hope all is well for you.

    I never denied God had power to do anything. Quote me where I said this please. God many times in scripture demonstrated His power.

    You are failing to see key verses in scripture.

    1-God does not lie

    2-Scripture is "God breathed", from God, by God, written by holy men moved by the Spirit.

    Therefore, if God does not lie, and He is the sole creator and author of scripture, and scripture states that miracles will cease, then God will not go back on His word.

    It is pretty much a common sense deduction here. By saying that these miraculous gifts still occur, you are saying that God is a liar, since God had "moved" Paul into writing 1 Cor 13.

    First off, I never claimed to be a cessationaist. I simply am a Christian that studies and follows scripture. Scripture states that those gifts cease after "that which is perfect comes". The gospel is the perfect word of God. It has been completed for a very long time now.

    Second, you have never used any such evidence, NOR even any scripture (mainly because you cannot find such), to support your claim. So you have pointed out nothing but hearsay. As they say, "moot" point. That has been your pointing out of things thus far. No evidence, not even scripture, no links, videos, pictures, nothing.

    You just cannot prove miraculous gifts are still in use. It is because they are not.

    So questions like...."What is "that which is perfect?" is of "sheer arrogance"?

    Questions like "Has the word been confirmed?" is of "sheer arrogance"?

    Please elaborate on this. I am puzzled how those are of "sheer arrogance".

    Is it because you cannot or do not know how to answer them?

    Also, accuse, as you have said, implies that I merely a claim you did not answer my questions. The simple fact is, you never did. It's not a claim, it is fact and truth.

    Then you will have no trouble at all providing me with some sort of way to prove this happens to this day. Miracles, signs, and wonders were to confirm the word (Mark 16:20 for example).

    Where is your confirmation this happens now days?

    Also, where is your scriptural evidence that this will continue after the word is completed and confirmed?

    Still waiting on you to give me anything other than "just trust me it happens".

    My apologies, it was lost upon the heap of belittling statements. I do so sincerely apologize as it was not my intent to ignore that.

    The talents I have been given, I speak to people about God and His word, visit the shut-ins when I can, help the behind the scenes things run for our Lords church in the area I attend. For example, cleaning the landscape or inside the building each week, ensure the website and facebook are maintained and in good order, things of that nature. I happily do these things and use my talents as the scripture has told me that it is how a Christian conducts themselves. I love our Lord and Savior and wish to obey His word.
     
  19. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Apologies, this seems like a conflicting response to me.

    You say "yes" that the word has been confirmed, but then say it is "still needed".

    Either the word is confirmed or it isn't, right?

    I suppose I should ask these questions then,

    Do you believe that scripture is from the inspiration of God, perfect?

    Do you believe the bible is the only authority?


    Also, you keep reciting OT scripture. We are no longer under its guidelines. We are under the NT covenant. The NT states that miraculous gifts will cease after something comes.

    Also, to point something out, we are talking about 1 Cor. 13:8-10, "miraculous gifts" i.e. healing by touch, raising the dead, walking on water, speaking a language you have not studied before with perfection suddenly. If you wish, we could discuss you previously mentioned "miracles" in general on another thread. This is about "gifts" such as the apostles had and "if" they still continue to this day.
     
  20. JAL

    JAL Veteran Supporter

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    I believe the Bible is inerrant in all matters of doctrine (I don't much care about possible trivial discrepancies such as a census-count). I do NOT believe in the cessation of prophetic revelation. And I'm SKEPTICAL that God wants any more revelation canonized, but He retains the option to foster such in the church. I'm not worried about it - I'm worried about getting 100% reliable truth for our use today (regardless of whether it gets canonized) - and exegesis is too error-prone to accomplish that.

    No of course not. The conscience is our only authority. You can read any or all of my posts on this thread for my reasoning (I actually did a similar post on our thread here too).
    Proof for Sola Scriptura - is irrefutable

    I don't accept any multi-covenant theology. I'm more aligned with the Reformed view which is one Covenant of Grace spanning both testaments (see Galatians 3).

    You seem to have your own definition of miracles and miraculous gifts which you SAY is Paul's view. I don't see the rationale - see prev comment on Elijah and rain.
     
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