Please any good MJ feel free to answer.
Do the majority of MJ's, kind of like the mainstream MJ's like Baptist are mainstream Christian's, (and I'm not saying MJ's are not Christian's), do MJ's pretty much follow the Talmud? I'm not talking about those who just seem to have one foot in the door but solid MJ's.?
Personally, from what I've seen (limited experience of course), there are alot of MJs who reference the Talmud due to how it is a historical document that was present within the culture/time of Christ. UMJA (Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations), for example, has
actually referenced the Talmud on differing occassions (seen
here or
here) . The Pharisees referenced it, as do many Jewish circles today..and the IMJA (International Messianic Jewish Alliance) utilized discussion on Talmud on a myriad of subjects ( seen
here and
here ). There's alot of variation as it concerns
the Different Streams of Messianic Synagogues (and their believers )...
For more in regards to the Talmud referenced by Messianic believers:
Also, there are some excellent articles such as the following:
One doesn't have to believe that all aspects of the Talmud are inspired in order to believe that it is indeed useful at many points...
.
The Messiah often quoted from when discussing with others. One doesn't have to believe that all aspects of the Talmud are inspired in order to believe that it is indeed useful at many points. Even when many Rabbi's didn't agree that Christ was the Messiah, Jesus still REFERENCED them.
As said elsewhere, many of the things Christ said in Matthew 23 were not really NEW......as much of what He said came DIRECYTY from the Pharisees own teachings. For the Talmud reveals that hypocrisy was not unknown among the Pharisees...as a famous passage in the Talmud denounces six types of hypocritical Pharisees (BT, Sotah, 22b), which speak of many of the same faults pointed out by Jesus. The Talmudic literature clearly condemns pretense and hypocrisy (JT, Berakoth f. ix, 7; 13 ), and from this there can be no doubt that these vices constituted special problems for Pharisees.
This is an important point because the literature of the Pharisaic tradition in no way sanctions hypocrisy. It is, in fact, in agreement with Jesus...and we must not make the mistake that the early writers of the oral tradition were all corrupt and blind. For though there can be no doubt that hypocrisy existed among the Pharisees during the time of Jesus, the reality is that Jesus was not simply coming up with things out of the hat when denouncing them.
For more info, one can go online and look up a source under the name of
"Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Sotah " (
//come-hear.iahushua.com/sotah/sotah_22.html ). As said
here:
AND THE PLAGUE OF PHARISEES etc. Our Rabbis have taught: There are seven types of Pharisees: the shikmi Pharisee, the nikpi Pharisee, the kizai Pharisee, the 'pestle' Pharisee, the Pharisee [who constantly exclaims] 'What is my duty that I may perform it?', the Pharisee from love [of God] and the Pharisee from fear. The shikmi Pharisee — he is one who performs the action of Shechem.4 The nikpi Pharisee — he is one who knocks his feet together.5 The kizai Pharisee — R. Nahman b. Isaac said: He is one who makes his blood to flow against walls.6 The 'pestle' Pharisee — Rabbah b. Shila said: [His head] is bowed like [a pestle in] a mortar. The Pharisee [who constantly exclaims] 'What is my duty that I may perform it?' — but that is a virtue! — Nay, what he says is, 'What further duty is for me that I may perform it?'7 The Pharisee from love and the Pharisee from fear — Abaye and Raba said to the tanna [who was reciting this passage], Do not mention 'the Pharisee from love8 and the Pharisee from fear'; for Rab Judah has said in the name of Rab: A man should always engage himself in Torah and the commandments even though it be not for their own sake,9 because from [engaging in them] not for their own sake, he will come [to engage in them] for their own sake. R. Nahman b. Isaac said: What is hidden is hidden, and what is revealed is revealed; the Great Tribunal will exact punishment from those who rub themselves against the walls.10
Notes:
4. Who was circumcised from an unworthy motive (Gen. XXXIV). The J. Talmud (Ber. 14b) explains: who carries his religious duties upon his shoulder (shekem), i.e., ostentatiously.
5. He walks with exaggerated humility. According to the J. Talmud: He says: Spare me a moment that I may perform a commandment.
6. In his anxiety to avoid looking upon a woman he dashes his face against the wall. The J. Talmud explains: calculating Pharisee, i.e., he performs a good deed and then a bad deed, setting one off against the other.
7. As though he had fulfilled every obligation.
8. [Abaye and Raba understood 'love' and 'fear' to denote love of the rewards promised for the fulfilment of precepts and fear of punishment for transgressing them. In J. Ber., however, they are both taken in reference to God — i.e., love of God and fear of Him.]
If it was the case with Christ that He, being a Jew, could reference material from His own Jewish background and culture that also involved thoughts not directly supporting Him, then referencing something from the Talmud seems to be legitimate provided it doesn't contradict what Yeshua noted
