Question about abortion

[OzSpen]

peter,

Going to heaven is not a good outcome? Also fetuses are not children, and the definition of murder is unlawful killing. Does the bible specifically call out on abortions?

You don't know your Bible very well to say that "fetuses are not children". The unborn are children. How do I know? The Bible tells me so.

Here is biblical evidence for the foetus being fully human:

1. Unborn babies are called "children," the same word used of infants and young children (Luke 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; Exodus 21:22), and sometimes even of adults (1 Kings 3:17).

2. The unborn are created by God (Psalm 139:13) just as God created Adam and Eve in his image (Genesis 1:27).

3. The life of the unborn is protected by the same punishment for injury or death (Ex. 21:22) as that of an adult (Gen. 9:6).

4. Christ was human (the God-man) from the point he was conceived in Mary's womb (Matt. 1:20-21; Luke 1:26-27).

5. The image of God includes "male and female" (Gen. 1:27), but it is a scientific fact that maleness or femaleness (sex) is determined at the moment of conception.

6. Unborn children possess personal characteristics such as sin (Ps. 51:5) and joy that are distinctive of human beings.

7. Personal pronouns are used to describe unborn children (Jeremiah 1:5 LXX; Matt. 1:20-21) just as any other human being.

8. The unborn are said to be known intimately and personally by God as he would know any other person (Ps. 139:15-16; Jer. 1:5).

9. The unborn are even called by God before birth (Gen. 25:22-23; Judges. 13:2-7; Isaiah. 49:1, 5; Galatians 1:15).

10. Guilt from an abortion is experienced, therefore, because a person has broken the law of God (sinned), "You shall not murder" (Ex. 20:13; Matt. 5:21; 19:18; Romans 13:9). Forgiveness can be received through confession to Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9).

Ethicist, theologian & biblical scholar, Dr. Norman Geisler, states that,

"taken as a whole, these Scripture texts leave no doubt that an unborn child is just as much a person in God's image as a little child or an adult is. They are created in God's image from the very moment of conception, and their prenatal life is precious in God's eyes and protected by his prohibition against murder" (Geisler, N. L. 1989, Christian Ethics: Options and Issues, Apollos (an imprint of Inter-Varsity Press), Leicester, England, p. 148).

I suggest that you become biblically informed before making your pronouncements.


Regards, Spencer

 

[OzSpen]

Clownzilla,

Who say fetuses are not children? I know that many academics and scientists state that fetuses are not children but life has been created at that point. Human life that wasn't there before is there at the fetus stage. A unique identity has occupied that piece of flesh. It has a place in the world and is not just another piece of meat at that point. Abortion is termination of life and in most cases is considered murder. I say most cases because certain circumstances where the woman is raped or their life is in danger creates unique and difficult situations. Murder is an act of malice and a raped woman would have a reason (in her mind) to not keep the life intact. It would be the obvious right choice to keep ALL children regardless of how their conceived but a woman choosing abortion in these unique circumstances would many times be making that decision without malice. However, her TRUE thought process that led to the choice of abortion will only be known to God and that will have to be sorted out between the woman and God. Long story short, the "rape scenario" shouldn't be used to justify the practice of abortion and supporting abortion is in NO WAY compatible with true Christian beliefs.

Welcome to Christian Forums. I am pleased that you have joined us for the first time and I look forward to further interaction with you.

From a biblical perspective, all foetuses are children. I can understand a woman agreeing to abortion after rape, but the biological and biblical evidence point to the unborn being human beings.

The U.S. Senate Judiciary Subcommittee, in 1981, held hearings on when life begins. The following are samples of evidence submitted by the medical profession (in Shettles with Rorvik 1983, pp. 113-114):

Dr Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris:

When does life begin? . . . Life has a very long history, but each individual has a very neat beginning, the moment of its conception . . . To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. The human nature of the human being, conception to old age, is not a metaphysical contention, it is plain experimental evidence.

Dr Watson A. Bowes, Jr, of the University of Colorado Medical School: "The beginning of a single human life is from a biological point of view a simple and straightforward matter -- the beginning is conception."

Dr Alfred Bongiovanni of the University of Pennsylvania Medical School, after noting that standard medical texts have long taught that human life begins at conception, added:

I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty . . . is not a human being.

Dr Micheline Matthews-Roth, research associate of Harvard University Medical School: "It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Professor Hymie Gordon, chairman of the Department of Medical Genetics at the Mayo Clinic (Rochester, Minnesota): "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

Dr McCarthy De Mere, a practising physician and a law professor at the University of Tennessee: "The exact moment of the beginning [of] personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

The medical breakthrough came in the 1960's when Francis Crick and James Watson discovered the genetic code (DNA).

The genotype -- the inherited characteristics of a unique human being -- is established in the conception process and will remain in force for the entire life of that individual. No other event in biological life is so decisive as this one . . . The genotype that is conferred at conception does not merely start life, it defines life (in Shettles with Rorvik 1983, pp. 36-37).

Biologically, human life begins when the sperm merges with the ovum to form the zygote, containing the full set of 46 chromosomes necessary to create new human life. "The haploid sex cells (ova or spermatozoa) are parts of potential human life. The zygote is human life" (Shettles with Rorvik 1983, p. 40).

The First International Conference on Abortion in Washington D.C., 1967, declared:

"We can find no point in time between the union of sperm and egg and the birth of an infant at which point we can say that this in not a human life" (in Stott 1984, p. 286).

Notes:
Shettles, L. B. with D. Rorvik 1983. Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, MI.
Stott, J. 1984. Issues Facing Christians Today. Marshalls: Basingstoke, Hants.

Regards, Spencer

 

[[serious]]

When, then, would you believe a human to get a soul? Death is the seperation of the soul from the body- so I guess it'd only "murder" when the soul is involved. So now we must figure out when the soul comes into/is put/is formed in a human.

well, first step is to define "soul"

This is no small step.

I propose the following ground rules:
anything that can be demonstrated to be a function of the mind or body cannot be the soul.

distinctions may not be arbitrary (though they can come from scripture of course)

Now, we've got 2 points where we would expect a soul to enter or leave a body, the beginning of life and the end of. Which indicator of death is associated with the soul departing the body. Rules must be constant over both these times.

 

[beforHim]

well, first step is to define "soul"

This is no small step.

I propose the following ground rules:
1)anything that can be demonstrated to be a function of the mind or body cannot be the soul.

distinctions may not be arbitrary (though they can come from scripture of course)

Now, we've got 2 points where we would expect a soul to enter or leave a body, the beginning of life and the end of. 2)Which indicator of death is associated with the soul departing the body. Rules must be constant over both these times.

I guess firstly I should ask:
1) What if the soul/spirit is the mind? I mean, if the body is physical yet the mind is not, then what is it?

2) Was this meant as a question, or did you miss a word/put a word in the wrong place? Or am I just missing it? (I'm good at that )


Secondly, we might need to try and figure out the difference between "soul" and "spirit". Sementical issue with language, or are they actually different? Or maybe different words for different aspects/angle of the same thing (that's my current working view)? I ask this because I keep wanting to put down "spirit" (no real reason) but noticed everyone is saying "soul" instead.

 

[[serious]]

I guess firstly I should ask:
1) What if the soul/spirit is the mind? I mean, if the body is physical yet the mind is not, then what is it?

2) Was this meant as a question, or did you miss a word/put a word in the wrong place? Or am I just missing it? (I'm good at that )


Secondly, we might need to try and figure out the difference between "soul" and "spirit". Sementical issue with language, or are they actually different? Or maybe different words for different aspects/angle of the same thing (that's my current working view)? I ask this because I keep wanting to put down "spirit" (no real reason) but noticed everyone is saying "soul" instead.

By "mind" I mean brain functions involved in decision making.

As far as spirit and soul, I see no necessary distinction but I'm not opposed to one being drawn.

 

[beforHim]

1)By "mind" I mean brain functions involved in decision making.

2)As far as spirit and soul, I see no necessary distinction but I'm not opposed to one being drawn.

1) Brain functions would be physical, though, right? Once you get to pure decision making, you've gotten to the spiritual. Hence why I see the mind as the spirit.
The relationship between the physical and the spiritual is a very unique and hard to figure out relationship.

2) I totally agree.

 

[PeterJohnson123]

If aborted fetuses go to heaven, then I think it would be very good to be aborted as a fetus. I mean, it's like a free ticket to heaven. If you are born then you might be brought up as a Muslim or as a pagan, and would of gone to hell.

 

[OzSpen]

Peter,

If aborted fetuses go to heaven, then I think it would be very good to be aborted as a fetus. I mean, it's like a free ticket to heaven. If you are born then you might be brought up as a Muslim or as a pagan, and would of gone to hell.

You still haven't got it. To abort an unborn child is to murder a human being, which is forbidden by the law of God. Please quit your promotion of violating the law of God for pragmatic reasons.

 

[Some Other Guy]

What happens to the souls of aborted children?

The Bible doesn't say for sure, but it strongly implies that they go to Heaven.

David's grief over his lost son and his assurance that he would see his son again in Heaven is a good example of this.

 

[Some Other Guy]

Well, okay, but doesn't that present a bit of a problem for "pro-life" advocates? After all, these children get to go straight to heaven and eternal heavenly bliss. They never end up having to face the temptations of Satan and possibly being lured into a life of sin which will land them in hell.

Ah, yes, the dopey logic of the pro-abortionist: "We're not really murdering children in the most savage and inhumane way imaginable, we're really helping them!"

First of all, abortion is murder. Murder is always bad and is always condemned by God.

Second, you didn't create the child, so it isn't up to you to decide when the child dies or what hardships he should or should not have to endure.

Third. who's to say that the hardships a child may experience do not work together for his good? Who's to say that God will not use his hardships to make life better for countless others?

Fourth, God creates life and takes life for His glory. If a child grows up, dies, and goes to Hell, then God is glorified through that. It isn't your place to interfere with that.

Fifth, if you really believed your own nonsense, then you'd be out murdering children as old as eight, nine, or even ten years old, because that's roughly the time that children begin to be able to grasp the Gospel and, thus, are held accountable for their sins. If you really believed your own silly talking points, then why wouldn't you be out murdering these children and sparing them from Hell, as well?

 

[beforHim]

If aborted fetuses go to heaven, then I think it would be very good to be aborted as a fetus. I mean, it's like a free ticket to heaven. If you are born then you might be brought up as a Muslim or as a pagan, and would of gone to hell.

I get what you're saying and all, but we do have our command from God:
"Let us do evil that good may come"- the command being the inverse, ie "don't do evil that good may come". The end never justifies the means with us humans is what God (through Paul) seems to be getting at.

 

[beforHim]

If aborted fetuses go to heaven, then I think it would be very good to be aborted as a fetus. I mean, it's like a free ticket to heaven. If you are born then you might be brought up as a Muslim or as a pagan, and would of gone to hell.

Also in this case, dieing right when one becomes saved would be good, lest you apostasize and all. Hence, we could say to you "Well, I hope you die soon, Peter, because who knows, 'once saved always saved' might not be true- and well, just in case you decide to change your mind about Christianity. . ."

Yeah, we can see were this is going.


Please, fellow brethern, don't start a debate on "once saved aways saved"; it was only brought up for purposes of getting the point across. Thx!

 

[birernest]

Because they are innocent beings, their souls go directly back to the arms of Jesus.

 

[Jase]

Peter,

There's nothing confusing about this at all because of this sequence:

1. The Scriptures state that, as one of the 10 commandments, "You shall not murder" (Ex. 20:13 ESV). Aborting foetuses is NEVER a good thing because it always involves murder and sinning against God.

2. If people sin against God by murdering unborn children, these sinners suffer God's consequences of sin and the possibility of God's solution for sin: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).

3. Children who are unnecessarily murdered through abortion, go to heaven (based on the exposition I provided above).

4. Murder never produces a good outcome, but God is merciful to those who suffer murder as unborn children.

5. There is nothing ironic about unborn children having souls and going to heaven. I consider that you are engaging in worldly thinking.

It's time that you got a biblical view of what God does in producing a new human being from the time of conception.

Regards, Spencer

Your first premise is wrong. Abortion is not by definition murder.

 

[Jase]

Peter,

You still haven't got it. To abort an unborn child is to murder a human being, which is forbidden by the law of God. Please quit your promotion of violating the law of God for pragmatic reasons.

A fetus is not by law a human being, and cannot be murdered. Please get your definitions correct.

 

[BL2KTN]

The bible does not value unborn life in the same way as born life. In Exodus 21:

22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. -- Exodus 21:22-25 (NIV)

As you can see, life-for-life only applies to the death of the mother, not the death of the fetus. Therefore, the fetus is not considered to be living in the same way. Furthermore:

3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man— 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?
-- Ecclesiastes 6:3-8 (NIV)

How does something with a soul / spirit come without meaning? And if it goes to the same place, does that mean there is only one afterlife or does it mean that the author is referring to the grave? The answer is "the grave."

The unborn do not have spirits, do not have souls, and are not human beings. They are in development, but according to the bible, are not human beings until birth:

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” -- John 3:3 (NIV)

If you're a Christian and you believe Jesus is God, then it's hard to argue with God when he uses the starting point for eternal life as "birth." For the God of the bible, "birth" is the beginning.

BL

 

[OzSpen]

biremest,

Because they are innocent beings, their souls go directly back to the arms of Jesus.

No human beings are innocent from conception. Yes they are human beings, as the Scriptures teach. Do children, including fetuses, go to heaven? See my article, "Children & heaven".

Sincerely, Spencer

 

[laconicstudent]

What about those unborn fetuses who aren't part of the elect? Don't they go to hell? That's kind of the view of some in the Soteriology forum, as I've seen it.

 

[OzSpen]

laconic

What about those unborn fetuses who aren't part of the elect? Don't they go to hell? That's kind of the view of some in the Soteriology forum, as I've seen it.

That's the Reformed view of election. There are other substantial biblical interpretations. See Norman Geisler's book, Chosen but Free (Bethany House Publishers). It offers a biblical alternative to the Reformed determinism.

I have written an article, "Children & Heaven", that demonstrates that children who die as children, commencing with conception, go to heaven.

Sincerely, Spencer

 

[OzSpen]

Jase,

A fetus is not by law a human being, and cannot be murdered. Please get your definitions correct.

A foetus, by God's law, is a human being. Here's the evidence:

1. Unborn babies are called "children," the same word used of infants and young children (Luke 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; Exodus 21:22), and sometimes even of adults (1 Kings 3:17).

2. The unborn are created by God (Psalm 139:13) just as God created Adam and Eve in his image (Genesis 1:27).

3. The life of the unborn is protected by the same punishment for injury or death (Ex. 21:22) as that of an adult (Gen. 9:6).

4. Christ was human (the God-man) from the point he was conceived in Mary's womb (Matt. 1:20-21; Luke 1:26-27).

5. The image of God includes "male and female" (Gen. 1:27), but it is a scientific fact that maleness or femaleness (sex) is determined at the moment of conception.

6. Unborn children possess personal characteristics such as sin (Ps. 51:5) and joy that are distinctive of human beings.

7. Personal pronouns are used to describe unborn children (Jeremiah 1:5 LXX; Matt. 1:20-21) just as any other human being.

8. The unborn are said to be known intimately and personally by God as he would know any other person (Ps. 139:15-16; Jer. 1:5).

9. The unborn are even called by God before birth (Gen. 25:22-23; Judges. 13:2-7; Isaiah. 49:1, 5; Galatians 1:15).

10. Guilt from an abortion is experienced, therefore, because a person has broken the law of God (sinned), "You shall not murder" (Ex. 20:13; Matt. 5:21; 19:18; Romans 13:9). Forgiveness can be received through confession to Jesus Christ (1 John 1:9).

Norman Geisler concludes:

"Taken as a whole, these Scripture texts leave no doubt that an unborn child is just as much a person in God's image as a little child or an adult is. They are created in God's image from the very moment of conception, and their prenatal life is precious in God's eyes and protected by his prohibition against murder" (Norman L. Geisler 1989. Christian Ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos - an imprint of Inter-Varsity Press, p. 148.)

Sincerely, Spencer