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Question about abortion
- Thread starter hagee_falwell
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beforHim
Apologetical
Just like things such as drugs, the trinity, moral absolutes (to name a few) are not addresses in a systematic, step-by-step fashion in the Bible, so neither is abortion nor the soul of those aborted. But we can gleen from God what might be the case, or at least some points about the case:
- God is love: total love, perfect love, omnilove. Hence, He loves those innocent children.
- God knows us from the womb (at least he knew Jeremiah and David, and I'm guessing it extends to all of us, via God's omniscience). And in a personal way, as if we were already persons worth loving.
- Death is the passage into either eternal life or eternal damnation.
- Babies don't have concious choice, at least not the same way they do as when they get older. Isaiah (before th boy gets old enough to choose. . .) and Jonah (. . .there are many who don't know their left hand from their right. . .) seem to imply this, as well as common sense.
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I think all we can do in cases such as this is to trust in the mercy of God.
I don't think your question can be answered with any complete certainty but it's difficult for me to image a merciful God condemning the souls of children who haven't even been born.
Moraiah
I don't think your question can be answered with any complete certainty but it's difficult for me to image a merciful God condemning the souls of children who haven't even been born.
Moraiah
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OzSpen
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Hagee,
Since God stated that human life begins at conception, the destiny of aborted souls is the same as the destiny of children. I have an article online that addresses this issue (see below).
Sincerely, Spencer
CHILDREN & HEAVEN [1]
After the death of a child or following an abortion, thoughtful people have asked, "What happens to children who die?" Where does a baby go who dies before he or she can understand right from wrong? What about the death of a person with a mental disability who is incapable of rational comprehension? Are aborted foetuses nothing more than scrap-heap refuse? Is there any after-life for them?
The example of King David
In the Old Testament, there is a ray of light in an incident that is surrounded by sin, distress and disappointment. King David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had arranged for the murder of Bathsheba's husband, Uriah, on the battle field.[2] The scene was atrocious--everything that one could expect from a modern movie. A son was conceived through illicit sexual intercourse.
When confronted by the prophet Nathan, David confessed, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."[3]
The son became desperately ill. David was distraught and wept bitterly. He fasted and pleaded with God to restore the child to health. But the child died.
It is at this point that the Old Testament gives us a glimpse of what happens to children after death. It is only a snap-shot of the eternal future, but it is enough to give immense hope to Christian believers whose children have died.
David said, "Now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."[4]
King David's words
David knew where he was going after death
Where was David going at death? Speaking to the Lord, David said, "And I--in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."[9] While Psalm 16:9-11 is Messianic, pointing to Christ,[10] it had a temporal fulfilment in the life of David:
How is it possible that eternal life is reserved for anyone who has repented, confessed his or her sin to Christ and received Christ [12], yet children who have not known how to repent are granted entry? There is a hint in Deuteronomy 1:39 when children are spoken of as those "who do not yet know good from bad." It is clear from the Bible that children are sinners from conception.[13] The heavenly status of children who die before reaching moral competence is a contentious one. However, it appears that the Lord takes into account the lack of moral understanding of children. Based on the following considerations, it is difficult to maintain that children are lost eternally. There are definite grounds in the Bible, although limited in detail, for stating that upon death, children go to heaven.[14]
By inference and application, surely this applies also to the mentally incompetent? We have confidence in answering the question, "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"[15] with an absolutely positive, "YES!"
Jesus Christ's view of children and heaven
Christ's disciples seemed to have a view that children were not important--"should be seen but not heard." Jesus rebuked them and challenged their distorted views. He said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."[16] Even though it was meant as correction, Christ included an important view of a child's place in heaven. "In principle all blessings of salvation belong even now to these little ones, a fact which was to be realized progressively here on earth and perfectly in the hereafter."[17] An Anglican bishop from the last century, J. C. Ryle, affirmed Christ's view that children would go to heaven at death: "We may surely hope well about the salvation of all who die in infancy. `Of such is the kingdom of heaven.'"[18]
Believers will know one another in heaven
We know from an incident that happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus Christ and His disciples that believers who have died will be recognised in eternity (heaven). Moses and Elijah who had died centuries earlier still maintained a clear identity.[19] Peter, James and John recognised them without an introduction by Jesus.[20] This "implies that we will somehow be able to recognize people we've never even seen before. For that to be possible, we must all retain our individual identities, not turn into some sort of generic beings."[21]
Jesus related another story about the rich man and Lazarus that emphasises this point. The rich man went to hell and was in torment. He lifted up his eyes and "saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."[22] There is clear recognition here of the departed. They know each other in life after death.
What about foetuses that have been aborted? (see my article online for the startling evidence from biology that human life begins before birth)
This question is related to when human life begins. There is startling evidence from biology that life begins before birth. [23]
Not surprisingly, the Bible agrees:
BIBLICAL ARGUMENTS FOR VIEWING THE FOETUS AS FULLY HUMAN
1. Unborn babies are called "children," the same word used of infants and young children,[24] and sometimes even of adults.[25]
2. The unborn are created by God[26] just as God created Adam and Eve in his image.[27]
3. The life of the unborn is protected by the same punishment for injury or death[28] as that of an adult.[29]
4. Christ was human (the God-man) from the point he was conceived in Mary's womb.[30]
5. The image of God includes "male and female"[31], but it is a scientific fact that maleness or femaleness (sex) is determined at the moment of conception.
6. Unborn children possess personal characteristics such as sin[32] and joy that are distinctive of human beings.
7. Personal pronouns are used to describe unborn children[33] just as any other human being.
8. The unborn are said to be known intimately and personally by God as he would know any other person.[34]
9. The unborn are even called by God before birth.[35]
10. Guilt from an abortion is experienced, therefore, because a person has broken the law of God (sinned), "You shall not murder."[36] Forgiveness can be received through confession to Jesus Christ.[37]
1. I, Spencer Gear, am an Australian counselling coordinator, doctoral student in New Testament, an active Christian apologist, and may be contacted at: P. O. Box 3107, Hervey Bay 4655, Australia.
2. Read the story in 2 Samuel, chapters 11 & 12. All quotations in this article are from the New International Version of the Bible.
3. 2 Samuel 12:13-14.
4. 2 Samuel 12:23, emphasis added.
5. James Montgomery Boice, Foundations of the Christian Faith (revised in one volume). Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1986, 718.
6. John F. MacArthur, The Glory of Heaven. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 1996, 138.
7. H. D. M. Spence and Joseph S. Exell (eds.), The Pulpit Commentary (Volume 4: Ruth, I & II Samuel). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950, The Second Book of Samuel, 290, 324, emphasis added.
8. Ibid., 324.
9. Psalm 17:15, emphasis added
10. See Acts 2:27; 13:35.
11. Emphasis added.
12. See John 1:12; 3:16; Acts 17:30-31.
13. An example is Psalm 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
14. See Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1985, 638.
15. Genesis 18:25.
16. Matthew 19:14, emphasis added.
17. William Hendriksen, The Gospel of Matthew (New Testament Commentary). Edinburgh (Scotland): The Banner of Truth Trust, 1973, 720.
18. J.C. Ryle, Expository Thoughts on the Gospel (Volume One, Matthew-Mark. Welwyn, Herts., England: Evangelical Press, 1977, 236.
19. Matthew 17:3.
20. Matthew 17:4.
21. MacArthur, 139.
22. Luke 16:23.
23. The above quotes on "biological evidence" were given at the Subcommittee on Separation of Powers, report to the U.S.A Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st session, 1981 on the issue of when life begins. They are quoted in Landrum B. Shettles with David Rorvik, Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1983, pp. 113-114 and Norman L. Geisler, Christian Ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos (Inter-Varsity Press), 1989, 148, emphasis added.
24. Luke 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; Exodus 21:22.
25. 1 Kings 3:17.
26. Psalm 139:13.
27. Genesis 1:27.
28. Exodus 21:22.
29. Genesis 9:6.
30. Matthew 1:20-21; Luke 1:26-27.
31. Genesis 1:27.
32. Psalm 51:5.
33. Jeremiah 1:5 LXX; Matthew 1:20-21. The original Old Testament was primarily written in Hebrew, with a few passages in Aramaic (a Hebrew dialect). The LXX is the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
34. Psalm 139:15-16; Jeremiah 1:5.
35. Genesis 25:22-23; Judges. 13:2-7; Isaiah. 49:1, 5; Galatians 1:15.
36. Exodus 20:13; Matthew 5:21; 19:18; Romans 13:9.
37. 1 John 1:9.
38. From Norman L. Geisler, Christian Ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos (an imprint of Inter-Varsity Press), 1989, p. 148.
39. ibid.
Welcome to Christian Forums. We are so pleased to see you here. I note that this is your first post. Congratulations!
Since God stated that human life begins at conception, the destiny of aborted souls is the same as the destiny of children. I have an article online that addresses this issue (see below).
Sincerely, Spencer
CHILDREN & HEAVEN [1]
After the death of a child or following an abortion, thoughtful people have asked, "What happens to children who die?" Where does a baby go who dies before he or she can understand right from wrong? What about the death of a person with a mental disability who is incapable of rational comprehension? Are aborted foetuses nothing more than scrap-heap refuse? Is there any after-life for them?
The example of King David
In the Old Testament, there is a ray of light in an incident that is surrounded by sin, distress and disappointment. King David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had arranged for the murder of Bathsheba's husband, Uriah, on the battle field.[2] The scene was atrocious--everything that one could expect from a modern movie. A son was conceived through illicit sexual intercourse.
When confronted by the prophet Nathan, David confessed, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan replied, "The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. But because by doing this you have made the enemies of the Lord show utter contempt, the son born to you will die."[3]
The son became desperately ill. David was distraught and wept bitterly. He fasted and pleaded with God to restore the child to health. But the child died.
It is at this point that the Old Testament gives us a glimpse of what happens to children after death. It is only a snap-shot of the eternal future, but it is enough to give immense hope to Christian believers whose children have died.
David said, "Now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."[4]
"The last comment does not mean merely that David would eventually die himself. The point of the story is that David comforted himself (and Bathsheba) after the child's death, and there would be no comfort unless David believed that, although he could not bring the child back, nevertheless, one day they would see the child again in heaven."[5]
David expected to see his son again--"not just a nameless, faceless soul without an identity, but that very child."[6] This is an assurance that believers will know people in heaven.
King David's words
- indicate a belief in the continued existence of the child, and even that David would recognize and know him in the future world. Less than this would have given no comfort to the father for his loss... He expressed a hope of conscious reunion in the future world; and the Christian, taking up the words, can express by them a fuller and more confident hope of rejoining his little children and Christian relatives and friends in a state of blessedness... `Not lost, but gone before' is a thought that is daily comforting thousands.[7]
David knew where he was going after death
Where was David going at death? Speaking to the Lord, David said, "And I--in righteousness I will see your face; when I awake, I will be satisfied with seeing your likeness."[9] While Psalm 16:9-11 is Messianic, pointing to Christ,[10] it had a temporal fulfilment in the life of David:
"Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay. You have made known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."[11]
At death, David would experience eternal life (heaven) in the presence of God. That is where he expected to meet his infant son again.
How is it possible that eternal life is reserved for anyone who has repented, confessed his or her sin to Christ and received Christ [12], yet children who have not known how to repent are granted entry? There is a hint in Deuteronomy 1:39 when children are spoken of as those "who do not yet know good from bad." It is clear from the Bible that children are sinners from conception.[13] The heavenly status of children who die before reaching moral competence is a contentious one. However, it appears that the Lord takes into account the lack of moral understanding of children. Based on the following considerations, it is difficult to maintain that children are lost eternally. There are definite grounds in the Bible, although limited in detail, for stating that upon death, children go to heaven.[14]
By inference and application, surely this applies also to the mentally incompetent? We have confidence in answering the question, "Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"[15] with an absolutely positive, "YES!"
Jesus Christ's view of children and heaven
Christ's disciples seemed to have a view that children were not important--"should be seen but not heard." Jesus rebuked them and challenged their distorted views. He said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."[16] Even though it was meant as correction, Christ included an important view of a child's place in heaven. "In principle all blessings of salvation belong even now to these little ones, a fact which was to be realized progressively here on earth and perfectly in the hereafter."[17] An Anglican bishop from the last century, J. C. Ryle, affirmed Christ's view that children would go to heaven at death: "We may surely hope well about the salvation of all who die in infancy. `Of such is the kingdom of heaven.'"[18]
Believers will know one another in heaven
We know from an incident that happened on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus Christ and His disciples that believers who have died will be recognised in eternity (heaven). Moses and Elijah who had died centuries earlier still maintained a clear identity.[19] Peter, James and John recognised them without an introduction by Jesus.[20] This "implies that we will somehow be able to recognize people we've never even seen before. For that to be possible, we must all retain our individual identities, not turn into some sort of generic beings."[21]
Jesus related another story about the rich man and Lazarus that emphasises this point. The rich man went to hell and was in torment. He lifted up his eyes and "saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side."[22] There is clear recognition here of the departed. They know each other in life after death.
What about foetuses that have been aborted? (see my article online for the startling evidence from biology that human life begins before birth)
This question is related to when human life begins. There is startling evidence from biology that life begins before birth. [23]
Not surprisingly, the Bible agrees:
BIBLICAL ARGUMENTS FOR VIEWING THE FOETUS AS FULLY HUMAN
1. Unborn babies are called "children," the same word used of infants and young children,[24] and sometimes even of adults.[25]
2. The unborn are created by God[26] just as God created Adam and Eve in his image.[27]
3. The life of the unborn is protected by the same punishment for injury or death[28] as that of an adult.[29]
4. Christ was human (the God-man) from the point he was conceived in Mary's womb.[30]
5. The image of God includes "male and female"[31], but it is a scientific fact that maleness or femaleness (sex) is determined at the moment of conception.
6. Unborn children possess personal characteristics such as sin[32] and joy that are distinctive of human beings.
7. Personal pronouns are used to describe unborn children[33] just as any other human being.
8. The unborn are said to be known intimately and personally by God as he would know any other person.[34]
9. The unborn are even called by God before birth.[35]
10. Guilt from an abortion is experienced, therefore, because a person has broken the law of God (sinned), "You shall not murder."[36] Forgiveness can be received through confession to Jesus Christ.[37]
"Taken as a whole, these Scripture texts leave no doubt that an unborn child is just as much a person in God's image as a little child or an adult is. They are created in God's image from the very moment of conception, and their prenatal life is precious in God's eyes and protected by his prohibition against murder."[38]
Since human life begins at conception and concludes at death, we may therefore conclude that the death of a human being by abortion means that the infant will experience the same eternal life as the child who dies after birth (evidence above). There is one important difference between the aborted life and that of a child who has been born. The aborted child was not known personally to the mother, father and others. Or, will the situation be similar to Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration who were known by the disciples without having met them? Will the aborted children in heaven be known by the parents who are Christians? We have no biblical evidence to support the knowledge we will have of aborted children in heaven. One thing we do know--the unborn child is known to God. The psalmist explains in poetic language:
"My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."[39]
Endnotes:
1. I, Spencer Gear, am an Australian counselling coordinator, doctoral student in New Testament, an active Christian apologist, and may be contacted at: P. O. Box 3107, Hervey Bay 4655, Australia.
2. Read the story in 2 Samuel, chapters 11 & 12. All quotations in this article are from the New International Version of the Bible.
3. 2 Samuel 12:13-14.
4. 2 Samuel 12:23, emphasis added.
5. James Montgomery Boice, Foundations of the Christian Faith (revised in one volume). Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 1986, 718.
6. John F. MacArthur, The Glory of Heaven. Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books, 1996, 138.
7. H. D. M. Spence and Joseph S. Exell (eds.), The Pulpit Commentary (Volume 4: Ruth, I & II Samuel). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950, The Second Book of Samuel, 290, 324, emphasis added.
8. Ibid., 324.
9. Psalm 17:15, emphasis added
10. See Acts 2:27; 13:35.
11. Emphasis added.
12. See John 1:12; 3:16; Acts 17:30-31.
13. An example is Psalm 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
14. See Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1985, 638.
15. Genesis 18:25.
16. Matthew 19:14, emphasis added.
17. William Hendriksen, The Gospel of Matthew (New Testament Commentary). Edinburgh (Scotland): The Banner of Truth Trust, 1973, 720.
18. J.C. Ryle, Expository Thoughts on the Gospel (Volume One, Matthew-Mark. Welwyn, Herts., England: Evangelical Press, 1977, 236.
19. Matthew 17:3.
20. Matthew 17:4.
21. MacArthur, 139.
22. Luke 16:23.
23. The above quotes on "biological evidence" were given at the Subcommittee on Separation of Powers, report to the U.S.A Senate Judiciary Committee S-158, 97th Congress, 1st session, 1981 on the issue of when life begins. They are quoted in Landrum B. Shettles with David Rorvik, Rites of Life: The Scientific Evidence for Life Before Birth. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1983, pp. 113-114 and Norman L. Geisler, Christian Ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos (Inter-Varsity Press), 1989, 148, emphasis added.
24. Luke 1:41, 44; 2:12, 16; Exodus 21:22.
25. 1 Kings 3:17.
26. Psalm 139:13.
27. Genesis 1:27.
28. Exodus 21:22.
29. Genesis 9:6.
30. Matthew 1:20-21; Luke 1:26-27.
31. Genesis 1:27.
32. Psalm 51:5.
33. Jeremiah 1:5 LXX; Matthew 1:20-21. The original Old Testament was primarily written in Hebrew, with a few passages in Aramaic (a Hebrew dialect). The LXX is the Greek translation of the Old Testament.
34. Psalm 139:15-16; Jeremiah 1:5.
35. Genesis 25:22-23; Judges. 13:2-7; Isaiah. 49:1, 5; Galatians 1:15.
36. Exodus 20:13; Matthew 5:21; 19:18; Romans 13:9.
37. 1 John 1:9.
38. From Norman L. Geisler, Christian Ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos (an imprint of Inter-Varsity Press), 1989, p. 148.
39. ibid.
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Well, okay, but doesn't that present a bit of a problem for "pro-life" advocates? After all, these children get to go straight to heaven and eternal heavenly bliss. They never end up having to face the temptations of Satan and possibly being lured into a life of sin which will land them in hell.
In addition they get to avoid this whole vale of tears known as physical life, with all its suffering and loss. It sounds like a win-win situation for the child.
In addition they get to avoid this whole vale of tears known as physical life, with all its suffering and loss. It sounds like a win-win situation for the child.
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Saint Polycarp
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Yea except they were murdered. So I think that qualifies for missing any suffering etc. Jesus said:
Matt 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:4
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
They go to heaven.
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Still though, that's an awfully small price to pay compared to the slings & arrows endured in a typical human lifetime. Especially when the reward is eternity with God, who will "wipe every tear from their eyes" - Revelation 21:4.
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Ryan Collins
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You bring up many good points. However, this issue is one of questioning as it presents an inquiry that cannot be answered fully. There are things to the faith that Christians need to be comfortable proclaiming mystery in. The salvation or judgment of aborted or stillborn babies is such a topic. We will not know the outcome of such a problem until we come into the presence of God where everything is made known to His followers. Whatever the outcome may be, we cannot question the doing of God's will. The problem that the majority of Christians run into is the idea of original sin and human life beginning at conception. The Bible is clear that sin entered all of humanity through the sin of one man. If this is so, then the babies that are conceived inherit a sinful nature. Whether or not they go to heaven based on the fact that they never had a chance to believe in Christ is up to God and for us to find out.
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Saint Polycarp
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Christ paid the price. We suffer true, but compared to eternal happiness out suffering is like a blink of the eye.
Why begrudge people who suffer or work less than others?
Matthew 20
1"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. 2He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard. 3"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' 5So they went.
"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. 6About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'
7" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'
8"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'
9"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. 10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
13"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? 14Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?'
16"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
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OzSpen
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Hagee,
So, are you advocating that more and more people should set about murdering children in the womb so that the children go directly to heaven? That would flaunt the law of God.
Regards, Spencer
You fail to see that doing God's will means NOT murdering children, no matter how young as a foetus. We can NEVER have a win-win situation when we violate God's law. Murdering anyone is wrong and human beings as individuals or as a nation reap the consequences.
So, are you advocating that more and more people should set about murdering children in the womb so that the children go directly to heaven? That would flaunt the law of God.
Regards, Spencer
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![[serious]](/data/avatars/m/160/160873.jpg?1431539545){kind=avatar}
There is a potential issue with that logic: Over half of all fertilized eggs fail to implant. Since about 1/3 of living people claim christianity. Since not all that cry out 'lord lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, this will be further reduced. Let's assume that legitimately saved christians run about 50% of people that say they are christian (for referance, only about half attend church regularly). Even without medical abortion, over 90% of heaven is populated by people who were never born, never knew Christ, never were saved.
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Stinker2
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[serious];55469423 said:
Very true.
If this were a more humanly perfect world, abortion would not exist. It is such a hot-button issue. So much so that even Christians have distorted the scriptures of certain Old Testament prophets describing their coming into existance to perform specific work that God ordained just for them to do. Many Christians took what these prophets wrote concerning themselves....and apply it to every human being that has, and ever will, exist. They distort the Exodus scripture that deals with the miscarriage caused by two men fighting. They twist it to include the fetus living or dying, when it is that if the husband's wife lives or dies. Emotionalism does not supercede truth when it comes to the word of God. There are many things in the Bible that we feel are terribly wrong, that we would not have instituted if we were in God's position. Heartless things are in this book. We must learn to deal with them. There probably is no more difficult issue than the issue of abortion due to having been raped. In this case, I would say that most pro-life Christians could not stand in the raped woman's way in her seeking an abortion.
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OzSpen
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Ryan,
In my exposition at #4 above, I give biblical evidence for the fact that children go to heaven. Where is the error in my exposition that causes you to say that it is "for us to find out" as they never had a chance to believe in Christ. Doesn't the Bible tell us so?
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This is extremely confusing. If aborted fetuses go to heaven, then that would be a good thing right? They don't have the risk of being an unbeliever of Christ. However many Christians would consider an abortion a murder, so that is bad. But in the end the murder produces a good outcome. If mankind aborted every fetus, then heaven would be overflown with more souls, and no more people would go to hell. The human race would be extinct, however everyone then on would be in heaven. I think believing in fetuses not having souls is the best way to avoid this ironic logic.
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OzSpen
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Peter,
1. The Scriptures state that, as one of the 10 commandments, "You shall not murder" (Ex. 20:13 ESV). Aborting foetuses is NEVER a good thing because it always involves murder and sinning against God.
2. If people sin against God by murdering unborn children, these sinners suffer God's consequences of sin and the possibility of God's solution for sin: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
3. Children who are unnecessarily murdered through abortion, go to heaven (based on the exposition I provided above).
4. Murder never produces a good outcome, but God is merciful to those who suffer murder as unborn children.
5. There is nothing ironic about unborn children having souls and going to heaven. I consider that you are engaging in worldly thinking.
It's time that you got a biblical view of what God does in producing a new human being from the time of conception.
Regards, Spencer
There's nothing confusing about this at all because of this sequence:
1. The Scriptures state that, as one of the 10 commandments, "You shall not murder" (Ex. 20:13 ESV). Aborting foetuses is NEVER a good thing because it always involves murder and sinning against God.
2. If people sin against God by murdering unborn children, these sinners suffer God's consequences of sin and the possibility of God's solution for sin: "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
3. Children who are unnecessarily murdered through abortion, go to heaven (based on the exposition I provided above).
4. Murder never produces a good outcome, but God is merciful to those who suffer murder as unborn children.
5. There is nothing ironic about unborn children having souls and going to heaven. I consider that you are engaging in worldly thinking.
It's time that you got a biblical view of what God does in producing a new human being from the time of conception.
Regards, Spencer
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Going to heaven is not a good outcome? Also fetuses are not children, and the definition of murder is unlawful killing. Does the bible specifically call out on abortions?
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beforHim
Apologetical
When, then, would you believe a human to get a soul? Death is the seperation of the soul from the body- so I guess it'd only "murder" when the soul is involved. So now we must figure out when the soul comes into/is put/is formed in a human.
I've always wondered this about abortion; consider this extremely unlikely, hypothetical scenario:
A very poor mother agrees to an experiment. She takes her very small 6 month old with her to the hospital, and they do a surgery were they out the baby back in the mother, just as it is before it comes out, umbiblical[sp?] chord and all. The mother gets paid 200$ for being a "gerbal". But now, all she has is $200. Nothing else. She is faced with a dillema: go to one of MANY Christian pregnancy centers and get enoug financial help to, again, birth the child, or else get an abortion- but wait [and here's "the kicker"] would it be murder now?
Discussion of "when does the soul enter/form/whatever" not withstanding, this scenario has always bothered me. If a baby lives ouitside the womb, then is back inside the womb, would abortion then be considered murder?
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Who say fetuses are not children? I know that many academics and scientists state that fetuses are not children but life has been created at that point. Human life that wasn't there before is there at the fetus stage. A unique identity has occupied that piece of flesh. It has a place in the world and is not just another piece of meat at that point. Abortion is termination of life and in most cases is considered murder. I say most cases because certain circumstances where the woman is raped or their life is in danger creates unique and difficult situations. Murder is an act of malice and a raped woman would have a reason (in her mind) to not keep the life intact. It would be the obvious right choice to keep ALL children regardless of how their conceived but a woman choosing abortion in these unique circumstances would many times be making that decision without malice. However, her TRUE thought process that led to the choice of abortion will only be known to God and that will have to be sorted out between the woman and God. Long story short, the "rape scenario" shouldn't be used to justify the practice of abortion and supporting abortion is in NO WAY compatible with true Christian beliefs.
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