Question 4 Catholics: What is going on in side the RCC with the Pope.

[JSRG]

well that didn't go well for vigano, but what did you think was going to happen?

The article in question about Vigano being replaced as ambassador was back in 2016--it clearly wasn't done in response to any statements he gave in the last year or two (I'm not sure it was done in response to anything he specifically did; it noted that he had turned 75 which is the age at which all bishops--aside from the pope--are supposed to retire, so maybe reaching that age just meant he was supposed to be replaced as ambassador too, I'm not sure).

Anyway, as noted, Vigano is a retired bishop rather than an active one. It should be noted that it's not just his views in regards to Catholicism that have become extreme, but also his geopolitical views; he's endorsed a number of conspiracy theories and has some... um... interesting views on the Russia/Ukraine conflict:

The Russian Federation undeniably stands as the last bastion of civilization against barbarism, and gathers around it all those nations that do not intend to submit to the colonization of NATO, the United Nations, the World Health Organization, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and that heap of foundations that have as their purpose the indoctrination of the masses, the manipulation of information, the creation of “colored springs” to destabilize governments legitimately elected and sow chaos, wars and misery as instrumentum regni.

The recent pandemic farce — conducted with criminal methods that I have not hesitated to denounce since the beginning of 2020 — has been followed by new emergencies — including the Ukrainian crisis — deliberately provoked with the aim of destroying the social and economic fabric of nations, decimating the world population, concentrating control in the hands of an oligarchy that no one has elected and that has perpetrated a real world coup d’état, for which sooner or later it will be called to answer before the world.

The theorists of this coup have names and faces, starting with George Soros, Klaus Schwab, and Bill Gates.

Those who today declare that Russia is an enemy consider Europeans, Americans, Australians and Canadians as enemies and treat them as such, persecuting and impoverishing them.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The article in question about Vigano being replaced as ambassador was back in 2016--it clearly wasn't done in response to any statements he gave in the last year or two (I'm not sure it was done in response to anything he specifically did; it noted that he had turned 75 which is the age at which all bishops--aside from the pope--are supposed to retire, so maybe reaching that age just meant he was supposed to be replaced as ambassador too, I'm not sure).

Anyway, as noted, Vigano is a retired bishop rather than an active one. It should be noted that it's not just his views in regards to Catholicism that have become extreme, but also his geopolitical views; he's endorsed a number of conspiracy theories and has some... um... interesting views on the Russia/Ukraine conflict:

The Russian Federation undeniably stands as the last bastion of civilization against barbarism, and gathers around it all those nations that do not intend to submit to the colonization of NATO, the United Nations, the World Health Organization, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and that heap of foundations that have as their purpose the indoctrination of the masses, the manipulation of information, the creation of “colored springs” to destabilize governments legitimately elected and sow chaos, wars and misery as instrumentum regni.

The recent pandemic farce — conducted with criminal methods that I have not hesitated to denounce since the beginning of 2020 — has been followed by new emergencies — including the Ukrainian crisis — deliberately provoked with the aim of destroying the social and economic fabric of nations, decimating the world population, concentrating control in the hands of an oligarchy that no one has elected and that has perpetrated a real world coup d’état, for which sooner or later it will be called to answer before the world.

The theorists of this coup have names and faces, starting with George Soros, Klaus Schwab, and Bill Gates.

Those who today declare that Russia is an enemy consider Europeans, Americans, Australians and Canadians as enemies and treat them as such, persecuting and impoverishing them.

Oh dear, the plot thickens. This reminds of the renegade American priest in the 1930's who was a huge proponent of Adolph Hitler. As they say, in every barrel of apples there is probably at least one bad one.

 

[concretecamper]

Despite all the noise and alarm bells going off, in my Diocese of Allentown PA

1. No same sex weddings.
2. No blessings of same sex couples.
3. Latin Mass is still be offered.
4. No women priests.
5. Deaconate is booming (male)
6. Etc etc etc

Now if you want to argue about non-religious issues like climate change and immigration, have at it with those secular issues. But for now, the Faith stands strong.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Despite all the noise and alarm bells going off, in my Diocese of Allentown PA

1. No same sex weddings.
2. No blessings of same sex couples.
3. Latin Mass is still be offered.
4. No women priests.
5. Deaconate is booming (male)
6. Etc etc etc

Now if you want to argue about non-religious issues like climate change and immigration, have at it with those secular issues. But for now, the Faith stands strong.

That is my observation, as an outsider, as well. The only significant change that I have observed is the crisis of the dwindling number of priests. Parishes have been merged and the numbers of Sunday masses have been reduced. It does not appear that this challenge will be solved within the foreseeable future.

 

[concretecamper]

The only significant change that I have observed is the crisis of the dwindling number of priests

I suggest you expand your observation to all parts of the world, not just the West.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I suggest you expand your observation to all parts of the world, not just the West.

That, of course, is no more possible for me than for yourself. You provided the observation from your limited perspective in Allentown, Pennsylvania and I provided mine from Davenport, Iowa.

 

[concretecamper]

That, of course, is no more possible for me than for yourself. You provided the observation from your limited perspective in Allentown, Pennsylvania and I provided mine from Davenport, Iowa.

In typical fashion, you are not being totally honest. At least you're consistent.

 

[Valletta]

That is my observation, as an outsider, as well. The only significant change that I have observed is the crisis of the dwindling number of priests. Parishes have been merged and the numbers of Sunday masses have been reduced. It does not appear that this challenge will be solved within the foreseeable future.

There are less priests today than in past decades in recent time, but the lay ministers and deacons have greatly increased in numbers. A deacon may be the pastor of a parish if necessary. Most of the merging of parishes is because of demographics, a priest can go from one parish to another to celebrate the mass. Generally the number of masses on a Sunday is based upon the number of attendees.

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are less priests today than in past decades in recent time, but the lay ministers and deacons have greatly increased in numbers. A deacon may be the pastor of a parish if necessary. Most of the merging of parishes is because of demographics, a priest can go from one parish to another to celebrate the mass. Generally the number of masses on a Sunday is based upon the number of attendees.

In my area of the country there have been a lot of closures of Catholic churches. The reasons for the closures are various and interrelated. One can point to the priest shortage as a very significant issue. In my hometown of Dubuque, Iowa, which is the seat of the Archbishop, there were twelve very large and thriving Catholic parishes when I was a child. As of today there are only seven. The overall population has remained very steady, neither growing nor shrinking.

 

[Valletta]

In my area of the country there have been a lot of closures of Catholic churches. The reasons for the closures are various and interrelated. One can point to the priest shortage as a very significant issue. In my hometown of Dubuque, Iowa, which is the seat of the Archbishop, there were twelve very large and thriving Catholic parishes when I was a child. As of today there are only seven. The overall population has remained very steady, neither growing nor shrinking.

Like so many areas in the United States, immigrants settled from different parts of the country and had their own churches that had mass in their own languages. A lot of Irish and Germans settled the general area, and in Dubuque plenty of French. Sometimes the churches holding mass in different languages would be very close to each other. Eventually there were less Catholics in many cities, a number moved to the suburbs. Catholic schools had many nuns teaching and did not have to pay the salary of lay teachers. That changed with less nuns. Tuition became expensive, the government discriminated against private schools and if you wanted your child to go to a Catholic school you had to pay taxes AND tuition. Public schools gave bus rides to students for free, Catholics had to pay. Many schools and parishes had to consolidate or close because of finances. It was not practical to keep open churches right next to each other that now all had mass in English. You should know this.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Like so many areas in the United States, immigrants settled from different parts of the country and had their own churches that had mass in their own languages. A lot of Irish and Germans settled the general area, and in Dubuque plenty of French. Sometimes the churches holding mass in different languages would be very close to each other. Eventually there were less Catholics in many cities, a number moved to the suburbs. Catholic schools had many nuns teaching and did not have to pay the salary of lay teachers. That changed with less nuns. Tuition became expensive, the government discriminated against private schools and if you wanted your child to go to a Catholic school you had to pay taxes AND tuition. Public schools gave bus rides to students for free, Catholics had to pay. Many schools and parishes had to consolidate or close because of finances. It was not practical to keep open churches right next to each other that now all had mass in English. You should know this.

Very curiously, although Julien Dubuque was French and various French explorers and missionaries passed through the area, there was no long-term French settlement in the city of Dubuque. The two primary Catholic ethnic groups were Irish and German with a smattering of a handful of Italians who drifted in after World War II. Dubuque has no suburbs. The population has remained exceedingly stable. To be certain, there was residential development in the outer areas of the city, primarily to the west, but the Catholic church established parishes for these areas, such as Resurrection and St. Joseph the Worker. None of the Catholic churches in Dubuque used any other languages than English and Latin. The Irish/German ethnic divide was quite deep, however, but all of the parishes, regardless of any ethnic identity, were large and thriving.

The parochial school system in Dubuque has virtually collapsed entirely. When I was a child each of the twelve parishes had its own elementary school. There was a brand new, very large Catholic high school (Wahlert, named after its donor). At present all of Catholic education in Dubuque is conducted in the former high school building. It seems from my limited perspective that one of the primary reasons for this situation was the aging of the nuns who taught in the schools for virtually free. Dubuque has several motherhouses of various orders of nuns. They were filled to overflowing in the past few decades with elderly nuns who had retired from various areas of the country. It seems that they were not replaced in the classrooms and that secular teachers needed to be hired to fill the gap and they needed adequate payment. Thus, a Catholic education simply became unaffordable for the typical modern Catholic family with its two or three children.

The government has discriminated against all forms of private education. The net result is that families who do not want a public education for their children either need to come up with the high tuition needed for a private school or need to take home education very seriously. It is really unfortunate that many families are opting for home education by the mother who, typically, is motivated, but lacks the time and training to work as a teacher, whether for one child or for a classroom full of children.

 

[The Liturgist]

Despite all the noise and alarm bells going off, in my Diocese of Allentown PA

1. No same sex weddings.
2. No blessings of same sex couples.
3. Latin Mass is still be offered.
4. No women priests.
5. Deaconate is booming (male)
6. Etc etc etc

Now if you want to argue about non-religious issues like climate change and immigration, have at it with those secular issues. But for now, the Faith stands strong.

Glory to God.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Oh you have to be kidding me.

so you don't believe Peter was the first leader of Christianity, after Jesus of course, and the founder of the church in Rome.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

so you don't believe Peter was the first leader of Christianity, after Jesus of course, and the founder of the church in Rome.

Peter would not want to do anything with the papacy.
And pope is not the leader of Christianity. He has no authority.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Peter would not want to do anything with the papacy.
And pope is not the leader of Christianity. He has no authority.

so you think there is no merit to the claim that he founded the church in Rome?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

so you think there is no merit to the claim that he founded the church in Rome?

Where in the Bible does it say Peter founded church in Rome? It's just a Roman Catholic tradition, with evidence ponting the other direction.

And even if Peter founded the church in Rome, the Roman Catholic church is far from what Peter taught.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where in the Bible does it say Peter founded church in Rome? It's just a Roman Catholic tradition, with evidence ponting the other direction.

And even if Peter founded the church in Rome, the Roman Catholic church is far from what Peter taught.

Actually, the historic evidence points strongly to the fact that Peter remained in Jerusalem with the other apostles to the Jews. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, is recorded as being the first apostle to go to Rome (not to mention all the other places in the Levant where he planted churches).

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Where in the Bible does it say Peter founded church in Rome?

in Acts. There was a delegation from Rome that heard Peter, received the Holy Spirit, and went back to Rome and preached the gospel. Priscilla & Aquilla were converted and then were kicked out of Rome when the Emperor banned the Jews for rioting over some guy named "Chrestus", most people think that was a mispronouncing of the word "Christ".

It's just a Roman Catholic tradition, with evidence ponting the other direction.

And even if Peter founded the church in Rome, the Roman Catholic church is far from what Peter taught.

that is true.

 

[bbbbbbb]

in Acts. There was a delegation from Rome that heard Peter, received the Holy Spirit, and went back to Rome and preached the gospel. Priscilla & Aquilla were converted and then were kicked out of Rome when the Emperor banned the Jews for rioting over some guy named "Chrestus", most people think that was a mispronouncing of the word "Christ".

that is true.

Still, it is not accurate to imagine that Peter founded the church in Rome. After all, he was hardly the only believer preaching in tongues on the day of Pentecost. It could have just as likely that someone else among the 120 was preaching in Latin.

In the same manner, we cannot assert that the Ethiopian church was founded by Philip, although God used Philip to preach the gospel to the treasurer of Ethiopia. There is a significant difference between the spiritual gift of evangelism and that of an apostle.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Actually, the historic evidence points strongly to the fact that Peter remained in Jerusalem with the other apostles to the Jews.

He was in Antioch. After the persecution in Jerusalem. So he did move.

Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, is recorded as being the first apostle to go to Rome (not to mention all the other places in the Levant where he planted churches).

Yes, and History says that Peter came there in the 60s when he was the eyewitness to the life of Jesus and introduced the Gospel of Luke. For the Gentille would not accept Luke without an eyewitness. Peter gave 5 lectures which became the book of Mark and they mean of introducing the gospel of Luke.