Queen of Heaven?

[trophy33]

So, then, the Apostles are outside the Church?

The authoritative part of the church. Not sure if you mean something mystical, using the capital C, if so, you must define it properly.

 

[trophy33]

You have it exactly reversed and wrong. It is a failure to recognize the Authority of the Church, especially when in council, that has spawned the many errors and divisions in the Church.

Your opinion. In my opinion, you have it reversed and wrong. And now, back to evidence.

 

[FenderTL5]

Your opinion. In my opinion, you have it reversed and wrong. And now, back to evidence.

Evidence? My comment is more than illustrated by the thousands of varying denominations all claiming Sola Scriptura.

 

[trophy33]

Evidence? My comment is more than illustrated by the thousands of varying denominations all claiming Sola Scriptura.

There are basically just about dozen of denominations. The practice of many churches to simply invent a name to distinguish themselves from the church that is in the next street (mainly an American thing), does not mean much. The basics are still somewhere among the dozen of elementary denominations.

But this argument is no "gotcha" anyway. Even if there were million of Sola Scriptura denominations, it still does not make praying to Mary (and other doctrines about Mary) right. You must have more solid ground for that.

 

[prodromos]

There are basically just about dozen of denominations

Even five is too many.

 

[trophy33]

Even five is too many.

Why? I have been to several denominations (Czech, German, Swiss or UK origin) and no problem at all.

On the other hand, as a protestant, I am not welcome to go to a RCC mass. So guess which denomination seems wrong.

 

[PeterDona]

# represents "number". #1 refers to your (1) and so on.

I am a person and this is a public forum. So both apply, namely when we discuss possible logical connection between some verses and some doctrine. The connection must be demonstratively there, or else its just some random verse that has some subjective similarity to the topic, but thats all.

I do not come here primarily to argue. I come here to build conversations. i come here to relate.

I understand the number system. But I perceive the effect of your post so as to shut down the conversation. It appeared you just wanted to win an argument.

 

[trophy33]

I do not come here primarily to argue. I come here to build conversations. i come here to relate.

I understand the number system. But I perceive the effect of your post so as to shut down the conversation. It appeared you just wanted to win an argument.

I tried to understand why you connect a seemingly random verse (the only common thing was Mary) to the doctrine we talk about. You seem to see some relevant connection, I do not. Therefore I asked you to present your logic which leads from the verse to the doctrine, in simple steps.

You are overly defensive. Anyway, if its just your personal belief, but its hard or impossible to argue for, then I do not force you to continue arguing for it, thats fine with me. You were the one reacting to my post and so it began

 

[PeterDona]

The NT is not a product of a church, but a product of (inspired) apostles. They have the authority, not some vaguely defined "church". Church(es) only recognized and accepted this authority of Scriptures.

If we shift the authority to church, we can get into many errors, as happened frequently in history.

I think this comes close to a description of your doctrinal position.
(1) the NT is not a product of a church
(2) the Scripture is inspired by God
(3) the church is vaguely defined
(4) Scriptures have the authority

It is not all wrong, it is just a question of the balance. And then the very low view of the church, as a typical protestant view.
Interestingly, the priest with whom I converted, took 2 years out to study ecclesiology, which is, the study of the role of the church. I think that is an aspect of the faith that dawns on many believers when they finally turn to the catholic church.

A starting point for the relation between the church and the Holy Spirit could be the apostles meeting in Acts 15. Take note how after all the dispute, the letter reads "we and the Holy Spirit have decided".

 

[PeterDona]

Therefore I asked you to present your logic which leads from the verse to the doctrine, in simple steps.

Right, ok
"Can you demonstrate the logical connection between "all generations will call me blessed" and praying to Mary?
In simple steps."

So you did use the word "logic" but not the word "doctrine".
You then put a heavy emphasis on "logic", while I clearly stated that my post was not meant as a formal logic response.

got it, confusion resolved

 

[trophy33]

And then the very low view of the church, as a typical protestant view.

I do not think that its a "very low view of the church". Neither do I think that a typical protestant view of the church is low.

Church is a body of saved, regenerated Christians. Its not low.

But regarding the authority, first Jesus Christ, second apostles, third our individual or collective reasoning. But we are not inspired in the same way the apostles were.

 

[PeterDona]

First Jesus Christ, second apostles, third our individual or collective reasoning.

I will only say, there is much more to it, and especially what the church is.

 

[trophy33]

I will only say, there is much more to it, and especially what the church is.

You can say that, sure. One liners in posts are not exhaustive encyclopedias. For the conversation to be readable, we must concise our thoughts into some simple core, related to the context and topic.

The body of Christ, the kingdom of God, is not low just because it stands on the shoulders of apostles and the head is Christ.

 

[PeterDona]

You can say that, sure. One liners in posts are not exhaustive encyclopedias. For the conversation to be readable, we must concise our thoughts into some simple core, related to the context and topic.

The body of Christ, the kingdom of God, is not low just because it stands on the shoulders of apostles and the head is Christ.

Hm, do you realize that the Catholic Church actually calls itself, the one holy apostolic church ? But then, apostolic succession is another theme in itself. Do you have a view on the selection of Mathias as an apostle in Acts 1? I have heard it said, that this was a flawed action. Do you have a view?

But anyway, for the study of ecclesiology, have a light start here: Ecclesiology - Wikipedia

For me, it is not at all about buildings and decorations, it is about how the body of Christ functions under God. But I also get that such is the present meaning of the word.

 

[trophy33]

Hm, do you realize that the Catholic Church actually calls itself, the one holy apostolic church ? But then, apostolic succession is another theme in itself. Do you have a view on the selection of Mathias as an apostle in Acts 1? I have heard it said, that this was a flawed action. Do you have a view?

But anyway, for the study of ecclesiology, have a light start here: Ecclesiology - Wikipedia

For me, it is not at all about buildings and decorations, it is about how the body of Christ functions under God. But I also get that such is the present meaning of the word.

I do not have a specific view of Mathias. It rather seems that the 12th apostle chosen by God was Paul, though.

Regarding ecclesiology, you can check the book De Ecclesia, by Jan Hus. However, its not related to our topic of Mary.

 

[PeterDona]

I do not have a specific view of Mathias. It rather seems that the 12th apostle chosen by God was Paul, though.

Regarding ecclesiology, check the book De ecclesia, by Jan Hus.

maybe you can provide a link to his views?

I believe that Acts 1 provides the pretext for how bishops are chosen even today, and of all, the pope. So the pope holds an apostolic role.

 

[trophy33]

maybe you can provide a link to his views?

I am afraid I do not have any prepared links summarizing his views.

Here seems to be some short English summary, translated from German: Hus' De Ecclesia - John Hus

There are also some influential thoughts about (Danish) church in the book The Moment by Soren Kierkegaard. And of course, Luther, Komenský and others.

I believe that Acts 1 provides the pretext for how bishops are chosen even today, and of all, the pope. So the pope holds an apostolic role.

I do not believe that.

 

[The Liturgist]

Evidence? My comment is more than illustrated by the thousands of varying denominations all claiming Sola Scriptura.

Which is a fact, by the way, @myst33.

 

[trophy33]

Which is a fact, by the way, @myst33.

I have no problem with protestant denominations, as mentioned in the posts above.

With "back to evidence", I did not mean evidence for the existence of denominations, but evidence for praying to Mary being biblical/apostolic Christianity.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have no problem with protestant denominations, as mentioned in the posts above.

Right, however, the proliferation of Protestant denominations quoting Sola Scriptura (which in fact adhere to something closer to Nuda Scriptura than the tradition-oriented, magisterial Sola Scriptura of Luther, Calvin and Cranmer) combined with the lack of scriptural support for the doctrine does contradict the idea that there is one obvious interpretation of scripture that everyone should be able to agree on just based upon the text itself.

Rather, the reason why we have the Nicene Creed and other symbols of faith is to provide a canonical interpretation for our canon of Scripture, which is also extra-scriptural insofar as neither the New Testament nor the Old contain within their pages an index enumerating all the other books variously considered canonical by different Christian denominations. Indeed, even where we all agree, namely the 27 book New Testament, this is in fact an instance of Church Tradition.