Queen of Heaven?

[boughtwithaprice]

It has been suggested that if we honor Mary as Queen of Heaven that we are actually worshiping a demonic entity known as the queen of heaven, as previously worshipped by some in the Old Testament.
I agree that the activity described in Jeremiah 44 is an abomination. Offering sacrifices, pouring out drink offerings and offering cakes to worship her. The wives of the men of Judah did this and it was clear that Jeremiah told them that they were sacrificing to other gods. The good that they thought they received from the queen of heaven was actually left over good will from God Himself when they sacrificed in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah prophesied that all men of Judah in Egypt will die, and a remnant may escape back to Jerusalem.
The queen of heaven described here is clearly another god(goddess), and we know that all gods that are not God are demons.
What we know about demons is that they hate God with a jealous hatred and in that hatred, they like to imitate the One True God. As an example demonic possession imitates the incarnation. They do this from jealousy and Satan even says in his arrogance, “I will be like the Most High”
Catholics do not worship Mary, we honor her as the mother of God, and proclaim her example of humility for all to follow when she says, behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word. That is not worship, but the hyperdulia that she is due. Even our Lord says to enter heaven, we must be as little children, and all little children have a mother. We are not feral and not orphans.
A mother is not a replacement but confirms the words of the father as Mary does when she tells us, “do whatever He tells you.”
The Queen of Heaven that we honor is not a demon but is at the right hand of Jesus as described in Psalm 45 (44 in Douay Rheims)

7- Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness [Psalms 44:7] 8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which 10 The daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

11 Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. 12 And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. 13 And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. 14 All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, 15 Clothed round about with varieties. After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee.

16 They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. 17 Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. 18 They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever.


This clearly describes Jesus on His throne and at His right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
After her Virgins shall be brought to the king (this describes Catholic Nuns)
The King, God, we shall adore, but we will entreat the queen’s countenance, and she will be praised forever and ever and remember her name thorough out all generations.
This is exactly what Catholics do for Mary as perfectly described in the word of God, not the poor imitation demonic worship of a fake queen
Praise is not worship, but recognition of the great beauty that God has given her.
To those that wish to accuse the Catholic Church of idolatry, I only ask you to seriously think about what you are saying. I know it is tempting to try and score a quick jab against a religion you believe is false. Consider what the scribes and Pharisees said to Jesus. “It is by Beelzebub that he casts out demons” Jesus warned them to not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Jesus also warns Christians that if you say to your brother, thou fool, you are worthy of hell fire
It’s better not to do it

 

[BobRyan]

It has been suggested that if we honor Mary as Queen of Heaven that we are actually worshiping a demonic entity known as the queen of heaven, as previously worshipped by some in the Old Testament.

Well that is one way to look at it - but I don't agree with it.

I agree that the activity described in Jeremiah 44 is an abomination. Offering sacrifices, pouring out drink offerings and offering cakes to worship her.

True. I think we can all agree that the "Queen of Heaven" topic in the bible is very specifically wrong.
We may also agree that no one in the Bible refers to Mary as "the Queen of Heaven"

 

[PeterDona]

Interesting, I never took note that in psalm 45 (44) there is mentioned a queen. But yes, there it is.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Well that is one way to look at it - but I don't agree with it.

True. I think we can all agree that the "Queen of Heaven" topic in the bible is very specifically wrong.
We may also agree that no one in the Bible refers to Mary as "the Queen of Heaven"

Then who is the Queen next to Christ in gold of Ophir ?
Who do we see after her Virgins brought to the King? Jesus is not specifically named in the Old Testament, but we all know who He is and to whom the scriptures refer. Disciples were so clueless that Christ Himself had to open the scriptures for them on the road to Emmaus, even though they studied them all their lives. So much for sola scriptura.
Who else is praised forever, and her name remembered through all generations? What woman is worthy of that? Mary herself says in Luke that all generations will call her blessed.
Hmmm, I don’t know, that scripture is so ambiguous Really? I don’t think so.
Why would Jesus tell us that we had to become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Are we a bunch of orphans like those in the story of Oliver Twist? No, the scriptures even say I will not leave you orphans. Does Jesus praise the single parent household? Are families with fathers only superior? No, and the scriptures say to honor your father and mother.
God in His infinite wisdom has placed Mary over us as our mother to induce humility in us. We strip ourselves of pride and become like little children to follow the example of our mother. “Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word.” Mary’s final words in scripture are “Do whatever He tells you”. Those are the words, or should be the words of any mother training her children.

You can disagree all you want, but I wonder about your motives for doing so. The scriptures are clear when you look at what is being said. If we use your standard regarding Mary, when applied to the Old Testament, we would never know the Old Testament scriptures refer to Jesus. “The Bible does not specifically say that” “It doesn’t actually say that His name is Jesus”
“I am looking for a messiah named Immanuel”
Can you see how absurd that position would be?
Well that is the same basis you use to attack the Catholic position

I say without fear of idolatry

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Blessed are you among women and blessed is
The fruit of your womb, Jesus
(Those are actually scriptures from Luke 1. Is reading scripture aloud Idolatry?)

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
(That is not idolatry, that is merely asking a human that is closer to God than any human ever will be, to pray for us, and we take our rightful place as little children to listen to our mother who says Do what ever He tells you)

I don’t care if you disagree with the Catholic position, but I do feel bad for you. It is lonely and sad to be without a mother that loves you, but if you call us idolaters, I question your belief in the Bible you purport to proclaim

The act of reading scripture aloud and meditating on the truth that they contain is not idolatry, nor is it vain repetition to get God to hear me. The prayer is not to get God to hear me, as He hears my prayer before I open my mouth, but the prayer and repetition of scripture is to train my thoughts and body to hear and act for the truth of God.
What say you? Should I pray repetitive scripture to train my mind, or leave myself open to the endless chatter in the world that seeks nothing but to distract me from God?
Well, your answer is not important to me, but for your own good, I can tell you that a rosary prayed in secret is a very useful way to meditate on God’s love for us. I highly recommend that you actually look at the Rosary prayer and study it’s scriptural basis

 

[PeterDona]

So much for sola scriptura.

Well, hm hm, be gentle

Sola Scriptura is a good start. But the catholic church, as the founder of Scripture, has to hold to "tota scriptura". So it is the totality of Scripture.

Hail Mary, Full of grace
Blessed art thou among women <3

 

[trophy33]

I say without fear of idolatry

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee...

Why do you think this text was meant to be repeated as a prayer? There is nothing in the context indicating that.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
(That is not idolatry, that is merely asking a human that is closer to God than any human ever will be, to pray for us

Where did you get the idea that Mary is closer to God than any human ever will be? Where does the Bible says so? If somebody, John is depicted as someone specially close to Jesus and Abraham as specially close to God.

Also, praying to departed people to pray for us is nowhere in the New Testament. Jesus taught to pray to Father, directly. What apostle prayed to Mary or wrote we should do so?

 

[eleos1954]

It has been suggested that if we honor Mary as Queen of Heaven that we are actually worshiping a demonic entity known as the queen of heaven, as previously worshipped by some in the Old Testament.
I agree that the activity described in Jeremiah 44 is an abomination. Offering sacrifices, pouring out drink offerings and offering cakes to worship her. The wives of the men of Judah did this and it was clear that Jeremiah told them that they were sacrificing to other gods. The good that they thought they received from the queen of heaven was actually left over good will from God Himself when they sacrificed in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah prophesied that all men of Judah in Egypt will die, and a remnant may escape back to Jerusalem.
The queen of heaven described here is clearly another god(goddess), and we know that all gods that are not God are demons.
What we know about demons is that they hate God with a jealous hatred and in that hatred, they like to imitate the One True God. As an example demonic possession imitates the incarnation. They do this from jealousy and Satan even says in his arrogance, “I will be like the Most High”
Catholics do not worship Mary, we honor her as the mother of God, and proclaim her example of humility for all to follow when she says, behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word. That is not worship, but the hyperdulia that she is due. Even our Lord says to enter heaven, we must be as little children, and all little children have a mother. We are not feral and not orphans.
A mother is not a replacement but confirms the words of the father as Mary does when she tells us, “do whatever He tells you.”
The Queen of Heaven that we honor is not a demon but is at the right hand of Jesus as described in Psalm 45 (44 in Douay Rheims)

7- Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness [Psalms 44:7] 8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which 10 The daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

11 Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. 12 And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. 13 And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. 14 All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, 15 Clothed round about with varieties. After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee.

16 They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. 17 Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. 18 They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever.


This clearly describes Jesus on His throne and at His right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
After her Virgins shall be brought to the king (this describes Catholic Nuns)
The King, God, we shall adore, but we will entreat the queen’s countenance, and she will be praised forever and ever and remember her name thorough out all generations.
This is exactly what Catholics do for Mary as perfectly described in the word of God, not the poor imitation demonic worship of a fake queen
Praise is not worship, but recognition of the great beauty that God has given her.
To those that wish to accuse the Catholic Church of idolatry, I only ask you to seriously think about what you are saying. I know it is tempting to try and score a quick jab against a religion you believe is false. Consider what the scribes and Pharisees said to Jesus. “It is by Beelzebub that he casts out demons” Jesus warned them to not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Jesus also warns Christians that if you say to your brother, thou fool, you are worthy of hell fire
It’s better not to do it

[Psalms 44:7]

Says nothing about Mary. Mary was a sinner .... no one is to be considered equal to (or above) Jesus .... no one.

The Bible doesn’t mention anything about there being a queen in God’s kingdom. KIng of king's ... Lord of lord's (Jesus)

Mary was Jesus earthly mother ... we all know that ... but that does not give her any special powers or status.

It's all about Jesus and Him alone. Worthy is the Lamb (Jesus). No one else.

What Does the Bible Say About Worthy Is The Lamb Who Was Slain?

 

[PeterDona]

Why do you think this text was meant to be repeated as a prayer? There is nothing in the context indicating that.

Hm, maybe not specifically these words, but we do find in the near context this statement
"lo, all generations shall call me blessed"

So, blessing Mary, or blessing her name, or how you want to see it, we do have in the text a very poignant statement about veneration for Mary

So the texts that were chosen in the composition of a Marian veneration
"hail Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee" - this is in the text
"blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" - this is also in the text

Those who composed the marian veneration, the rosary, sought to be very biblical, so much is clear

 

[PeterDona]

The Bible doesn’t mention anything about ...

Hm hm, as I stated in my first post in this thread, the catholic church is not sola scriptura, it is tota scriptura, meaning that it has to embrace all of scripture, not just the selected parts that would fit a special idea. I would encourage you to do some study on what you brought up here, to search out the catholic position.

And some catholics will bring up "tradition". But that is a loaded word in the ears of many evangelicals. Really, the "tradition" mostly is a recognition of hundreds / thousands of years of catholics striving to get into every corner of scripture, digging out the meaning of the whole Bible. That is what the so-called "tradition" is, for the better part of it.

 

[eleos1954]

Hm hm, as I stated in my first post in this thread, the catholic church is not sola scriptura, it is tota scriptura, meaning that it has to embrace all of scripture, not just the selected parts that would fit a special idea. I would encourage you to do some study on what you brought up here, to search out the catholic position.

And some catholics will bring up "tradition". But that is a loaded word in the ears of many evangelicals. Really, the "tradition" mostly is a recognition of hundreds / thousands of years of catholics striving to get into every corner of scripture, digging out the meaning of the whole Bible. That is what the so-called "tradition" is, for the better part of it.

It's a matter or interpretation ..... and there are many of those. Jesus warned about man-made traditions.

According to one Catholic view, Scripture and Tradition are two sources of revelation. Some divine truths are found in the Bible, while others are found in Tradition.

True or false?

 

[bbbbbbb]

It's a matter or interpretation ..... and there are many of those. Jesus warned about man-made traditions.

According to one Catholic view, Scripture and Tradition are two sources of revelation. Some divine truths are found in the Bible, while others are found in Tradition.

True or false?

Another aspect to this question is which Tradition? There are many Christian Traditions. Probably the closest rival to Catholic Tradition is Orthodox Tradition, which is, in several key aspects, at variance with Catholic Tradition.

 

[eleos1954]

Another aspect to this question is which Tradition? There are many Christian Traditions. Probably the closest rival to Catholic Tradition is Orthodox Tradition, which is, in several key aspects, at variance with Catholic Tradition.

this is my main reason why I don't attend any organized church system.

There are many teachings of the Catholic church and other churches/religions I am not in agreement with ... it's not just some of the traditions ... the main driving fact that I have come to .... is the teaching of the state of the dead .... that is .... we are immortal .... there is nothing immortal about us .... we will receive immortality when Jesus returns (not before) .... yes there were some that were taken to heaven before and are immortal in heaven (3 that are named - the rest not) .... but for the majority of the masses .... this is not so ... most churches/religions teach an immortal "soul" ( it's spiritualism)

I do not find this to be so through my studies and I am unmovable on this point ....

People believe otherwise ... so be it .... agree to disagree ... but do encourage others to do their own in depth study of it.

Genesis 3:4

King James Bible
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Immortal "soul" .... is the same lie being propagated.

We surely do die .... but all will be resurrected some day (1st or 2nd)

Possibility of 2 deaths .... the fist death is temporal (awaiting 1st resurrection into the heavenly kingdom) the resurrection of the 2nd death is final for eternity (no entry into the heavenly kingdom)

This why in His Word death is termed as a dormant sleep ... because the 1st resurrection of the masses has not happened yet.

We wait for the return of our Lord to receive the gift of everlasting life. AMEN!!!!

 

[PeterDona]

It's a matter or interpretation ..... and there are many of those. Jesus warned about man-made traditions.

According to one Catholic view, Scripture and Tradition are two sources of revelation. Some divine truths are found in the Bible, while others are found in Tradition.

True or false?

You managed to twist the meaning of my post, and then ask me to confirm your world view. I am not going to jump through your hoops. You can discard my view if you do not like it, but I am not stupid, and I see what you are doing.

So just to make it very clear, the view I presented

"tradition" = interpretation(s) of scripture

 

[The Liturgist]

It has been suggested that if we honor Mary as Queen of Heaven that we are actually worshiping a demonic entity known as the queen of heaven, as previously worshipped by some in the Old Testament.
I agree that the activity described in Jeremiah 44 is an abomination. Offering sacrifices, pouring out drink offerings and offering cakes to worship her. The wives of the men of Judah did this and it was clear that Jeremiah told them that they were sacrificing to other gods. The good that they thought they received from the queen of heaven was actually left over good will from God Himself when they sacrificed in Jerusalem.
Jeremiah prophesied that all men of Judah in Egypt will die, and a remnant may escape back to Jerusalem.
The queen of heaven described here is clearly another god(goddess), and we know that all gods that are not God are demons.
What we know about demons is that they hate God with a jealous hatred and in that hatred, they like to imitate the One True God. As an example demonic possession imitates the incarnation. They do this from jealousy and Satan even says in his arrogance, “I will be like the Most High”
Catholics do not worship Mary, we honor her as the mother of God, and proclaim her example of humility for all to follow when she says, behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word. That is not worship, but the hyperdulia that she is due. Even our Lord says to enter heaven, we must be as little children, and all little children have a mother. We are not feral and not orphans.
A mother is not a replacement but confirms the words of the father as Mary does when she tells us, “do whatever He tells you.”
The Queen of Heaven that we honor is not a demon but is at the right hand of Jesus as described in Psalm 45 (44 in Douay Rheims)

7- Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness [Psalms 44:7] 8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which 10 The daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

11 Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. 12 And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. 13 And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. 14 All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, 15 Clothed round about with varieties. After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee.

16 They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. 17 Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. 18 They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever.


This clearly describes Jesus on His throne and at His right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir.
After her Virgins shall be brought to the king (this describes Catholic Nuns)
The King, God, we shall adore, but we will entreat the queen’s countenance, and she will be praised forever and ever and remember her name thorough out all generations.
This is exactly what Catholics do for Mary as perfectly described in the word of God, not the poor imitation demonic worship of a fake queen
Praise is not worship, but recognition of the great beauty that God has given her.
To those that wish to accuse the Catholic Church of idolatry, I only ask you to seriously think about what you are saying. I know it is tempting to try and score a quick jab against a religion you believe is false. Consider what the scribes and Pharisees said to Jesus. “It is by Beelzebub that he casts out demons” Jesus warned them to not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
Jesus also warns Christians that if you say to your brother, thou fool, you are worthy of hell fire
It’s better not to do it

Indeed this is entirely sensible. While the Orthodox do not venerate the Theotokos using this specific title, I see nothing objectionable about it, in that as the actual Mother of God, St. Mary is like a queen mother in a sense, in that she represents the New Eve, succeeding where Eve failed through her piety and obedience to God.

And it is of course entirely wrong to say that Roman Catholics or Orthodox or Anglicans worship the Theotokos, for this is not the case; rather she is the recipient of veneration (doulia) and not worship (latria). Understanding the distinction between doulia and latria, two ancient Greek words which one will find in Scripture, is very important, for only God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is worthy of worship. Thus, we worship Christ our God, while venerating his human mother, who is not God, but did give birth to God, since Jesus Christ is God and logically one cannot deny that the Blessed Virgin Mary did give birth to God without resorting to the immensely problematic Christology of Nestorius.

 

[The Liturgist]

this is my main reason why I don't attend any organized church system.

There are many teachings of the Catholic church and other churches/religions I am not in agreement with ... it's not just some of the traditions ... the main driving fact that I have come to .... is the teaching of the state of the dead .... that is .... we are immortal .... there is nothing immortal about us .... we will receive immortality when Jesus returns (not before) .... yes there were some that were taken to heaven before and are immortal in heaven (3 that are named - the rest not) .... but for the majority of the masses .... this is not so ... most churches/religions teach an immortal "soul" ( it's spiritualism)

I do not find this to be so through my studies and I am unmovable on this point ....

People believe otherwise ... so be it .... agree to disagree ... but do encourage others to do their own in depth study of it.

Genesis 3:4

King James Bible
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Immortal "soul" .... is the same lie being propagated.

We surely do die .... but all will be resurrected some day (1st or 2nd)

Possibility of 2 deaths .... the fist death is temporal (awaiting 1st resurrection into the heavenly kingdom) the resurrection of the 2nd death is final for eternity (no entry into the heavenly kingdom)

This why in His Word death is termed as a dormant sleep ... because the 1st resurrection of the masses has not happened yet.

We wait for the return of our Lord to receive the gift of everlasting life. AMEN!!!!

Forgive me, but I don’t see how you can use the obvious fact that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are at variance with respect to their understanding of what constitutes Holy Tradition as the basis for rejecting organized churches writ large. It does not make sense, logically; the argument you present is a non sequitur. Indeed the KJV that you quote is the product of the Church of England, which like the Orthodox and the Catholics, does formally embrace Church Tradition, although its understanding of Church Tradition is not quite the same as the others, however, in general, it is actually the case that the variance between the traditional churches, which also include Lutheranism and the Assyrian Church of the East, and several smaller Protestant denominations such as the Moravians, is extremely slight, and furthermore due to the ecumenical movement, these churches are in the process of resolving their differences and restoring communion. For example, in 1991, the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Antiochian Orthodox Church, both of which are headquartered in Damascus and serve Syrian Christians, but which were divided by the Chalcedonian schism, achieved a spectacular reconciliation, with an agreement that restores limited intercommunion and constitues a recognition by the predominantly Aramaic-speaking Syriac Orthodox Church and the predominantly Arabic and Greek speaking Antiochian Orthodox Church of the legitimacy of the other.

 

[The Liturgist]

Another aspect to this question is which Tradition? There are many Christian Traditions. Probably the closest rival to Catholic Tradition is Orthodox Tradition, which is, in several key aspects, at variance with Catholic Tradition.

Well, just because there are multiple traditions, it should be noted that not all of these are exclusive of other traditions, being rather the traditions of regional churches, for example, each of the Oriental Orthodox churches has a distinct liturgical tradition and a distinct feeling, yet these churches are in full communion. There are proposals for reconciling Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic tradition, and indeed we already see this to a large extent in the Eastern Catholic Churches in communion with Rome, such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Catholic Church, the Maronite Catholics, the Chaldean Catholics, etc, and likewise the Western Rite Orthodox movements that exist in the Antiochian Orthodox Church and ROCOR. One can liken these to Calvinist churches which have distinct traditions and slight variations in theological orientation, but which are in communion, for example the Presbyterian Church in America and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

It also is entirely possible that there is one singular correct tradition, and those churches which have departed from that tradition are in error to varying extents.

 

[The Liturgist]

Why do you think this text was meant to be repeated as a prayer? There is nothing in the context indicating that.

There is nothing prohibiting it. Furthermore, as my friend @MarkRohfrietsch can attest, this is an ancient prayer, which was promoted by Martin Luther, and which is used by traditional Lutherans and also high church Anglicans, and indeed even by the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox churches.

I myself tend to regard all of Scripture as prayer, in that when it is sung in church (in the Orthodox church, we intone scripture rather than merely reading it, and this does not in any respect harm intelligibility, indeed it brings out emotional depth, and the Jews also do this (in Judaism, the singing of the Bible is called Cantillation), and from them Christians inherited the concept), it is an integral part of the liturgical worship. Of course, some portions of Scripture are more specifically liturgical than others, for example, the Psalter (Psalms) which is a collection of 150 hymns, which are also all entirely prayers, some of which are propitiatory, some of which are benedictions, some of which are imprecations, some of which are prayers of thanksgiving, and some of which, such as the Gradual Psalms, are prayers of delight in the existence of God, and one of which, Psalm 118 (also known as 119, depending on whether or not one is using the Septuagint or the MT Psalter) is pretty much all of the above.

 

[The Liturgist]

Where did you get the idea that Mary is closer to God than any human ever will be? Where does the Bible says so? If somebody, John is depicted as someone specially close to Jesus and Abraham as specially close to God.

Well since St. Mary actually carried God in her womb, and gave birth to Him, and raised Him from infancy to adulthood as his human mother, from whom he took his human nature that he united hypostatically with His divinity so as to save us, according to the Christology of the ecumenical councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, Ephesus, and even Chalcedon, it does seem that the Blessed Virgin did spend more time with God than anyone else, in more intimate physical contact. Neither St. John the Beloved Disciple, nor St. Abraham, close to God as they were, which is undeniably very close, did actually suckle the incarnate Logos or feed and dress Him in his childhood. By virtue of being the person who God chose to become incarnate of, the relationship between the Theotokos and Christ our God is incredibly close.

And Jesus Christ is God incarnate, the second person of the Trinity, very God of very God, as the Nicene Creed says, consubstantial with the Father and begotten of the Father before all ages. He is also fully human, having taken on his humanity from the Virgin Mary so as to be the Son of God and the Son of Man, uniting our humanity with His divinity so as to restore and glorify our fallen human nature, making resurrection possible for us through his sacrifice and passion on the Cross which did pave the way for our return to grace through faith in Him.

So the importance of the Theotokos and her maximal proximity to God out of all of humanity is a function of her being chosen to bear Him. It is for this reason that all generations shall call her blessed, according to the Gospel of St. Luke.

 

[The Liturgist]

Also, praying to departed people to pray for us is nowhere in the New Testament. Jesus taught to pray to Father, directly. What apostle prayed to Mary or wrote we should do so?

Well if you want to talk about what is in the New Testament, it includes, among other things, the basis for apostolic succession and the sacrament of confession and the preservation of the Church, which essentially refutes the premise of all of the Restorationist denominations, in Matthew ch. 16, and it also includes the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist in 1 Corinthians 11, John ch. 6, and elsewhere, and it also includes an instruction to adhere to the traditions received from the Apostles in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and an anathema against those who preach another gospel from that which was traditioned from the Apostles in Galatians 1:8-9, and it also declares Christ to be God, in John 1:1-18, and it declares in Luke ch. 1 that all generations shall regard the Virgin Mary as blessed, which has thus far proven to be the case. It also includes an instruction that we anoint the sick with oil in the sacrament of Holy Unction in the Epistle of St. James, and that same Epistle also declares faith without works to be dead.

What it lacks is any kind of prohibition against asking for the intercession of the Theotokos or other saints. There is nothing in the New Testament that proscribes the Hail Mary or the Akathist hymns of the Eastern Orthodox Church, or likewise the Theotokia hymns and the Paraklesis and other services and other hymns such as some of the Canons (which are exceptionally beautiful hymns that are based upon nine scriptural canticles known as the Nine Odes, including two of the three evangelical canticles in St. Luke, as well as the song of the three children in Daniel, Benedicite Omni Opera, and other canticles, and the specific canons for each day in the church year combine the theme of the scriptural canticle with whatever is being commemorated on that day, for example, on Christmas, the birth of Christ, and on Pascha, His resurrection, and on Pentecost, the sending of the Holy Spirit as our Paraclete.

 

[trophy33]

@The Liturgist

Do you think your arguments are strong enough for a discussion? Or do you present them just as an opinion "good enough for you, personally"?