Qualified Leader?

[Andyman_1970]

BTW Rual_Preacher you post on this was awesome, I didn't get to tell you that before.

I also believe that if you take into consideration the cultural context of Paul's letter to Ephesus, you would have a church full of people who had a great deal of paganism and immorality in their backgrounds but had been made new by the power of the HS through faith in Christ. So, Paul's words were understood to mean a man's qualifications as a believer now...not what ever he was before he got saved.

I couldn't agree with you more..................

Unfortunately, many churches today take into consideration what a person's past was when deciding whether they're qualified for service. That is a shame because God cleanses us of all unrighteousness, who are we to bring it up again...

It is a shame, this has become a stumbling block for many that I know as I pursue God's calling on my life to be a pastor/teacher.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Sin as we define it? God created marriage between one man and one woman long before Paul wrote Timothy. Our witness as leaders is not simply restricted to our current circumstances, that's relativism in practice. Nor can our model for marriage be drawn from scriptures based on a defiant disobedient Hebrew culture.

Would God expect a man to divorce one of His wives to become a pastor? Yes!, how else can this cycle of sin be broken? Would it be painful? Yes again, but sin has a cost. Jesus paid the cost of my separation from God, He covered me, but this doesn't keep me from paying the price of denying myself.

The scriptures speak much more clearly against divorce than against polygamy.

Now, I'm not defending polygamy as a good system. I'm just saying that the church should not encourage divorce. If a polygamist becomes a Christian, "Let each man abide in that calling wherein he was called." 1 Corinthians 7:20.

I think God would expect a man to live up to his responsibilities to his family. A man who would turn his back on a wife is no role model, either.

Perhaps this is why Paul wrote in that way. A polygamous leader would not be a good role model, but neither would someone who divorced a wife out of ambition for a church position. Who would support that rejected wife in the ancient world? What options would she have to live a righteous life?

I'm sure Paul didn't mean it that way, or he would also have given instructions on how the church should care for discarded surplus wives.

As far as breaking the cycle of sin, that may be a topic for another thread. There are some interesting examples. One of the best is Genesis 38. Breaking the cycle of sin does not happen when we focus only on one of the people affected. A good solution has to be loving toward ALL, not just vindicate the righteousness of one.

 

[RED that's ME]

God made the model relationship when he made Adam and Eve. One thing to consider also that we have "free will" to make good and bad decisions. God has a "perfect will" and a "permissable will". His perfect will is for one man and one woman in a marriage. Just because the Bible records polygamy marriages doesn't mean that God has approved them.

 

[eldermike]

Perhaps this is why Paul wrote in that way. A polygamous leader would not be a good role model, but neither would someone who divorced a wife out of ambition for a church position.

I think He wrote it the way it's written to keep the world out of the church.
We are forgiven our past sins and through submission convicted of our current ones. Change is a decision we make in response to conviction.
A prostitute can be saved and become a Sunday school teacher but she can't remain a prostitute. There is no sin that works any other way. A man that is married to more than one woman can be saved and become a preacher but He can't remain a polygamist. Otherwise sin only costs Christ?

GAL 4:8 Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by God--how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11 I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

A person living in sin should be told the truth. The decision to change is theirs but the decision is completely separate from our responsibility to tell them the truth.

 

[Crazy Liz]

God made the model relationship when he made Adam and Eve. One thing to consider also that we have "free will" to make good and bad decisions. God has a "perfect will" and a "permissable will". His perfect will is for one man and one woman in a marriage. Just because the Bible records polygamy marriages doesn't mean that God has approved them.

I agree that there are degrees of God's approval. Jesus did teach that the best is either celibacy or lifelong monogamy.

The questions the earlier posts raised, though, are:

1) Is polygamy a sin?

There is no place in the Bible that says that.​

2) Are all the things that disqualify a person from holding church office sins? Should we interpret these lists of qualifications such that some are absolute and some are not, based on whether or not they are sins?

I don't think all the things that may disqualify a person are necessarily sins. Most of you think these scriptures disqualify women. Is being a woman a sin? If this is your belief, why should a man who comes to Christ as a polygamist think of himself differently from a person who comes to Christ as a woman? Both seem to be disqualified by their condition, not by their sin.​

3) If a person does not currently meet the ideal, should he or she try to change everything about himself/herself that disqualifies him/her?

I think usually we should strive for the ideal, but sometimes one is in a position where changing one's status would mean doing wrong to someone else. Divorcing surplus wives falls in this category.​

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think He wrote it the way it's written to keep the world out of the church.
We are forgiven our past sins and through submission convicted of our current ones. Change is a decision we make in response to conviction.
A prostitute can be saved and become a Sunday school teacher but she can't remain a prostitute. There is no sin that works any other way. A man that is married to more than one woman can be saved and become a preacher but He can't remain a polygamist. Otherwise sin only costs Christ?

But scripture never calls polygamy a sin, does it?

What do you think of the scripture I quoted from 1 Corinthians?

I think a man who is married to more than one woman can be saved and can remain faithful to the wives he has. He can't become an elder or deacon, but he can be a faithful Christian.

By your logic, I can become a preacher if I divorce my husband, have gender reassignment surgery, and marry a wife.

 

[Crazy Liz]

BTW, I am NOT promoting polygamy for Christians. I absolutely agree that it falls short of the ideal set by Christ. I am talking about the scripture that is under discussion, and whether everything that may disqualify someone is a sin.

I am also suggesting we think more carefully before we prescribe divorce as a remedy for less-than-ideal marriages.

 

[RED that's ME]

1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach:

verse 8
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre.

that word likewise meaning the same for a deacon as for a bishop.

We shouldn't hold a person to their past (before becoming a christian) cause God doesn't he forgives and forgets doesn't mean there isn't repercussions from our decisions.

There is nothing wrong with a single guy being a Pastor or Deacon. The main thing that it's helpful many times for a pastor to be married so they work as a team and the pastor's wife can take care of certain situations especially if they have to deal with females than the pastor.

 

[eldermike]

BTW, I am NOT promoting polygamy for Christians. I absolutely agree that it falls short of the ideal set by Christ. I am talking about the scripture that is under discussion, and whether everything that may disqualify someone is a sin.

I know that, so am I.

 

[eldermike]

By your logic, I can become a preacher if I divorce my husband, have gender reassignment surgery, and marry a wife.

We have left out an important issue, "the call"..I don't think you would be called. Saved yes, but not called

 

[Crazy Liz]

We have left out an important issue, "the call"..I don't think you would be called. Saved yes, but not called

You wouldn't say the same thing for a polygamist?

 

[eldermike]

You wouldn't say the same thing for a polygamist?

Sure, I have no problem with this approach.