Pyramids

[JohnR7]

I saw a painter trim with a four inch brush once and he could do a better job than I could do with a two inch brush.

 

[JohnR7]

I agree. It shows that many of the historical and scientific claims in the Bible are false.

Talk is cheap, you have still not proven that anything in the Bible is false.

but the timing is wrong. This proves the Bible is in error.

Either science is wrong or the Bible is wrong. In this case it is pretty clear that it is science that is wrong. Although maybe we made a mistake in our interpretation, but I do not think so in this case.

Also the Bible requires a common female ancestor around 6000 years ago. The evidence does not back up this idea. It didn't happen.

The scientific evidence does back it up. Her name was Jasmine according to Sykes and she is known as the J eve.

Either way, Science and the Bible say the same thing. In the last 6,000 to 8,000 years there was a common ancestor for the semetic people from the Middle east. Science confirms the Bible to be true once again.

Of course there is no scientific evidence that she talked to snakes. But there is evidence that Eve was a real historical person. Or at least Science is able to verify that Eve could have been a real historical person.

 

[flatworm]

Talk is cheap, you have still not proven that anything in the Bible is false.

You can stick your fingers in your ears but that won't make the evidence go away.

Either science is wrong or the Bible is wrong. In this case it is pretty clear that it is science that is wrong.

Are you finally admitting that science does not support the accuracy of the Bible?

The scientific evidence does back it up. Her name was Jasmine according to Sykes and she is known as the J eve.

Sykes says no such thing. The "J eve" is simply the only one of 7 ancestral European mtDNA haplotypes that seems to originate in the middle-east. That does not establish all Jews are descended from this individual. Not even close.

Check out some of the real literature.

The differences among the Jewish populations in mtDNA haplogroup frequencies indicates that the Jewish groups formed independently around (at least) eight small, distinct nuclei of women.

Either way, Science and the Bible say the same thing. In the last 6,000 to 8,000 years there was a common ancestor for the semetic people from the Middle east.

No, the Bible says the most recent common male ancestor for the semitic peoples was less than 4500 years ago, and that there was a common female ancestor 6000 years ago, not 6000-8000.

Science does not say the Jews had a common female ancestor 8000 years ago either. It says one of the major mtDNA haplogroups found in all of Europe originated in the middle-east 8000-10000 years ago.

Science confirms the Bible to be true once again.

Only if you ignore both what science and the Bible say.

Of course there is no scientific evidence that she talked to snakes. But there is evidence that Eve was a real historical person. Or at least Science is able to verify that Eve could have been a real historical person.

Again, the mtDNA evidence doesn't establish this "Jasmine" as a single common ancestor for the Jewish people. That haplogroup is found all over Europe.

 

[Avatar]

Flatworm, this is fascinating, do you have a link? Is it at wikipedia?

 

[Upisoft]

Flatworm, this is fascinating, do you have a link? Is it at wikipedia?

You may find some useful information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve

 

[Avatar]

You may find some useful information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Daughters_of_Eve

Thank you.

 

[Sleeker]

Ah, but that is the problem.
It is pretty safe to assume that there were workers that built the pyramids.

But that's not what would logically be compared to evolution. The pyramids were built by workers. Evolution occurs through natural processes. Those are the two things that you can compare. You could also compare the number of workers at the pyramids and which natural processes lead to evolution. However, you can't compare the number of workers at the pyramids with whether or not evolution has occurred.

The problem with the theory of evolution is that it's basic premise is wrong.

But with nothing backing up this statement, it's nothing.

We are now going though what they call a third wave or a third revolution in the theory of evolution.

Says who?

As far as I am concerned as a scientific theory evolution has already been falsified.

Really? You'd think that this would be on the mainstream news...

We do not have this problem with the Bible. It has remained consistant and true for 3500 years now, ever sense Moses wrote the origional four books of the Bible. Nothing has changed in 3500 years.

Yup, it certainly has remained consistent through changing from geocentrism to heliocentrism. You know, same thing, right? [Sarcasm]

There is plenty of scientific evidence that shows the theory of evolution is null and void.

No.

Science itself does not deal with the basic premise of the Bible.

What's the basic premise of the Bible? If you're talking about the supernatural, of course science can't study it.

Science can just show us if the history and facts recorded in the Bible are true or not.

It has. Bible is wrong, or at least, not all right.

It amazes me that people would want to reject the Bible when there is so much information in there that can be of use to science. There are not that many 3500 year old books.

I tend not to trust the beliefs of people who lived 3,500 years. You know their beliefs of how heavier objects fall faster, dead horses transform into maggots, disease is sent from God, etc...

Esp books that we can translate and understand as well as we understand the Bible.

If it's understood so well, why are there so many different sects?

That is one of the nice things about population genetics. God has put a record in our DNA that goes back as far as 140,000 years, according to science.

We know from science that all of the people in the Middle East have a common ancestor that lived about 6,000 years ago.

So which is it? And for both, I'd like a source.

Evo-devo is considered to be the third revolution in evolution.

By whom?

Either science is wrong or the Bible is wrong. In this case it is pretty clear that it is science that is wrong.

Of course it's easy when you operate under the assumption that the Bible is infallible and inerrant.

 

[JohnR7]

Sykes says no such thing. The "J eve" is simply the only one of 7 ancestral European mtDNA haplotypes that seems to originate in the middle-east.

Sykes also talks about how these people in the Middle East were the first to farm and the first to settle in cities and the first to hurd animals. Interesting that the Bible talks about farming, hurding and building cities.

It says one of the major mtDNA haplogroups found in all of Europe originated in the middle-east 8000-10000 years ago.

I can work with that and still not depart from YEC. The Bible begins 12,975 years ago at the end of the last ice age. Each day in the Bible represents 1,000 years. We see Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden 6,000 years ago on the eighth day. So 8,000 years ago would actually be the sixth day of Creation. That is when Chapter one of the Bible says God created male and female.

Anyways, I may not have it all worked out to an exact science but anything in the last 12,000 years works out just fine with me. Because I am not working with 24 hour days. Science does not have all the answers, so I can only give you answers to the degree that science is able to produce them. We are learning and discovering new things all the time.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Interesting that the Bible talks about farming, hurding and building cities.

Yep. The Bible mentions farmers, and scince confirms the existance of farmers. The Bible mentions Jerusalem, and science confirms the existance of Jerusalem.

With stats like them no wonder we know the Bible is 100% literally correct!

 

[Upisoft]

The Bible begins 12,975 years ago at the end of the last ice age.

Would you mind to give us some evidence OR Bible quotations that will prove your allegations?

Each day in the Bible represents 1,000 years.

Again, evidence or quotation?

 

[JohnR7]

Would you mind to give us some evidence OR Bible quotations that will prove your allegations?

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

 

[Upisoft]

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years[1], and a thousand years as one day[2].

Well, I don't know much English. Perhaps the underlined words above have been put there just to confuse me.
Anyway, which one is true:
[1] One Lords day = 1000 Human years
[2] Thousand Lord years = 1 Human day.

Obviously both can't be true.

 

[Jadis40]

Well, I don't know much English. Perhaps the underlined words above have been put there just to confuse me.
Anyway, which one is true:
[1] One Lords day = 1000 Human years
[2] Thousand Lord years = 1 Human day.

Obviously both can't be true.

They're just basically figures of speech. God, as a spirit, exists outside of the temporal and physical world, and therefore isn't bound to the rising and setting of the sun.

I think Peter was just trying to make a point the eternal nature of God.

 

[Avatar]

Well, I don't know much English. Perhaps the underlined words above have been put there just to confuse me.
Anyway, which one is true:
[1] One Lords day = 1000 Human years
[2] Thousand Lord years = 1 Human day.

Obviously both can't be true.

Sure they can. The meaning is that God is outside of time.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Does anyone else find it just a wee bit odd that the only area of science which is incorrect just so happens to be the one that JohnR7's holy book deals with? I mean, seriously, what are the odds of that happening?

I would pay GOOD CASH MONEY to see a Creationist take on

Quantum Mechanics
Thermodynamics (apart from the 2nd Law)
Crystallography
Mineralogy
Organic Chemistry
Inorganic Chemistry
Colloid Science
Surface Science

Oh gosh, ANYTHING besides just hammering on Evolution! It would give me strength to know they knew there was a bigger science world out there.

(But to be fair, it is kinda entertaining when they try to take on geology, because they usually mess it up pretty badly and geology isn't the hardest science out there)

 

[Upisoft]

Originally Posted by Upisoft
Well, I don't know much English. Perhaps the underlined words above have been put there just to confuse me.
Anyway, which one is true:
[1] One Lords day = 1000 Human years
[2] Thousand Lord years = 1 Human day.

Obviously both can't be true.

They're just basically figures of speech. God, as a spirit, exists outside of the temporal and physical world, and therefore isn't bound to the rising and setting of the sun.

I think Peter was just trying to make a point the eternal nature of God.

Jadis40, Avatar, thank you!
I understand it the same way. However, our fellow forum member JohnR7 somehow have deduced that its meaning is that in Genesis "day" means "1000 years". So, I'm trying to understand how he have deduced that.

 

[us38]

God, as a spirit, exists outside of the temporal and physical world, and therefore isn't bound to the rising and setting of the sun.

That doesn't really fix the problem, either. A non-temporal object can interact with a temporal universe at most once.

 

[Jadis40]

I would pay GOOD CASH MONEY to see a Creationist take on

Quantum Mechanics
Thermodynamics (apart from the 2nd Law)
Crystallography
Mineralogy
Organic Chemistry
Inorganic Chemistry
Colloid Science
Surface Science

Oh gosh, ANYTHING besides just hammering on Evolution! It would give me strength to know they knew there was a bigger science world out there.

(But to be fair, it is kinda entertaining when they try to take on geology, because they usually mess it up pretty badly and geology isn't the hardest science out there)

I don't think some of them even have the basic understanding of what powers a star...nuclear fusion within the nucleus of a star in the proton-proton chain in a star the mass of our sun or less, or the CNO cycle in a more massive star. I think this much knowledge would at least give science some credibility in saying the lifespan of a star is upwards of millions of years, and our sun is no exception.

I think even a basic knowledge of at least that much of stellar evolution proves beyond any doubt that the universe, and by extension, the earth and all the other objects in our solar system are older than the 6,000 years the YECers promote in their beliefs.

I took a course in astronomy in both high school and college, and looking back, the high school course was much more detailed.

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/energy/ppchain.html

 

[flatworm]

Sykes also talks about how these people in the Middle East were the first to farm and the first to settle in cities and the first to hurd animals. Interesting that the Bible talks about farming, hurding and building cities.

John, no one disputes the existence of agriculture*. Agriculture and city building are pretty much synonymous with civilization and it's no surprise cities, farming and herding get mentioned in ancient texts.

The Illiad mentions cities, warfare and seafaring. The fact that these actually exist doesn't prove the accuracy of the Illiad.

I can work with that and still not depart from YEC. The Bible begins 12,975 years ago at the end of the last ice age. Each day in the Bible represents 1,000 years. We see Adam and Eve in the Garden in Eden 6,000 years ago on the eighth day. So 8,000 years ago would actually be the sixth day of Creation. That is when Chapter one of the Bible says God created male and female. Anyways, I may not have it all worked out to an exact science but anything in the last 12,000 years works out just fine with me. Because I am not working with 24 hour days.

As I said before, if you're allowed to twist both the Bible and the science however you want, I'm sure you can satisfy yourself in your own mind that there's no contradiction.

I ought to point out, though, that:

1) Adam and Eve living 8000 years ago doesn't square with the 'begats'.

2) "Jasmine" is not a single common ancestor for the Jewish people.

3) Science proves conclusively that the earth and humanity are both much older than 12975 years.

I don't think I'm getting through to you. If you want to claim that "Science confirms such-and-such account", two things must be true:

1) Positive scientific evidence must exist to corroborate the essential elements of the account; and

2) There must be no points of disagreement between the science and the account.

We're not comparing artistic styles here- you can't just find some vague thread of similarity between the story and the data (A common male ancestor for the semitic peoples), ignore all the details that get in the way (Wrong timing, lack of a common female ancestor), and claim that science backs you up.

Science does not have all the answers, so I can only give you answers to the degree that science is able to produce them.

It's true that science doesn't have all the answers. It does not follow, however, that your theories hold any answers, or at least any correct ones.

*At least I've never met anyone who does. I have a nagging suspicion that if there are such people, though, this would be the place to find them.

 

[ReverendDG]

2 Peter 3:8
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Oh come on john this is just absurd, peter is making the statement that time is meaningless to god, he will do things no matter the time
Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it is past,
And like a watch in the night.

And the author of pslams is praising god for his eternalness and how time is meaningless

peter says AS, can't you read your own text? its AS a thousand years, not that it is! but that it could be a thousand years or a day and it won't matter
becides peter is using a traditional jewish way of writing, its called paralellism, he's restating another part of what he said

peter could have just said, a day is as a thousand years, its repeated on purpose