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Pyramids and the flood

Doug Brents

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Or, if one is interested in a particular aspect of science, they can make the effort to learn as much as they can about it and evaluate it on its own merits.
As long as what they "learn" does not contradict the Creator's "operator's manual" (the Bible), they can learn and evaluate it to their heart's content. But we automatically know that anything that contradicts what the Creator said is wrong.
No, that's not really accurate. But does that matter to you?
It does matter, and I would appreciate learning more about it (although this is not the appropriate venue for that).
And there's the problem. You're trying to say that if anyone has a different interpretation than you, they therefore don't trust God. But your interpretations aren't God, are they? So it is possible to disagree with you while still trusting God.
Many (I dare say, most) things in Scripture only have one way of understanding them (see the ages of the people listed in post 219). So there is very little, or no, room to interpret them in different ways. Any interpretation that says the earth is more than a few years off from 5924 years old is automatically wrong, because it contradicts what we find in God's Word.
The point is, when scientists do their jobs and carry out scientific investigations, they have to be as objective as possible. And that means they can't try to make all their findings fit your personal interpretation of scripture, my personal interpretation, or anyone else's. They can't try and make their findings fit anyone's personal beliefs period.
It is not the findings of "science" that are suspect. It is the interpretations of those findings that are suspect. One example of this is the almost universally held opinion that the mile deep sedimentary rock forming the walls of the Grand Canyon was laid down over million (if not billions) of years, and it took almost that long to carve the canyon. But there is evidence from the Mt. St. Helen's eruption that the sediment was laid down in a matter of weeks to months, and the canyon was carved in about a week (see the little grand canyon in which the sediment was laid down and the canyon carved in less than a week after the mountain exploded). This evidence points to the idea that the Grand Canyon was carved, not in millions of years, but in a matter of weeks, sometime after the Flood.
So they do their work and publish their results. Then it's up to each of us to decide what we want to do with those results. If you want to reject them, that's your choice. But you can't demand that they change their work to accommodate your personal beliefs.
Again, it is not their work I am disputing, but their conclusions.
 
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BeyondET

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Much of "science" is subjective, not objective. An observed phenomenon should never be interpreted in a way that contradicts what Scripture says. For example, Scripture says that the Earth was created in 6 days, God rested on the seventh day, and Adam, having been created on the sixth day, died 930 years later. Counting from there, we can date the Earth at very close to 5923 years old. Any "scientific" finding that dates the Earth at more than that must automatically be suspect, for it would violate what we are told in the more authoritative/foundational information we have.

What the catholic cult did has no bearing on truth. I am forbidden by site rules from saying what I think about the catholic cult, but their interpretation of Scripture has been shown to be faulty, even blasphemous, on many counts. Yes, we must always seek the proper interpretation of Scripture, and enforce our interpretation in love, not violence. But the Scripture must always be foundational and our scientific observations interpreted through the lens of Scripture.
That's assuming the days of creation were 24 hours long each.

And I haven't read any verses in the bible that says the genealogy can be used to determine the age of earth.
 
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River Jordan

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As long as what they "learn" does not contradict the Creator's "operator's manual" (the Bible), they can learn and evaluate it to their heart's content. But we automatically know that anything that contradicts what the Creator said is wrong.
That's exactly the approach religious leaders took before and they ended up being wrong. We should be humble enough to admit that it's possible for us to be wrong in our interpretations.

It does matter, and I would appreciate learning more about it (although this is not the appropriate venue for that).
This is a decent place to start: Evolution 101

Many (I dare say, most) things in Scripture only have one way of understanding them (see the ages of the people listed in post 219). So there is very little, or no, room to interpret them in different ways.
14,000 Christian denominations indicate otherwise.

Any interpretation that says the earth is more than a few years off from 5924 years old is automatically wrong, because it contradicts what we find in God's Word.
That's your interpretation. Most other Christians (and Jews) disagree.

It is not the findings of "science" that are suspect. It is the interpretations of those findings that are suspect. One example of this is the almost universally held opinion that the mile deep sedimentary rock forming the walls of the Grand Canyon was laid down over million (if not billions) of years, and it took almost that long to carve the canyon. But there is evidence from the Mt. St. Helen's eruption that the sediment was laid down in a matter of weeks to months, and the canyon was carved in about a week (see the little grand canyon in which the sediment was laid down and the canyon carved in less than a week after the mountain exploded). This evidence points to the idea that the Grand Canyon was carved, not in millions of years, but in a matter of weeks, sometime after the Flood.
I'm gonna be honest here. It's precisely that sort of uninformed young earth creationist apologetics that makes us, and by by extension, our faith look ridiculous. I also work as a youth pastor and I've seen many young people reject the faith because of arguments like this.

The erosion that took place after the Mt. St. Helens eruption was in volcanic ash and mud. The strata in the Grand Canyon are not like that at all. Anyone who knows just that simple basic fact will immediately scoff at your argument, which will lead some to ask if that's really what Christians believe, which will lead some to reject Christianity altogether.

It's why Christian geologists I've worked with loathe young earth flood arguments.

Again, it is not their work I am disputing, but their conclusions.
Then you're going to have to do a lot better than making arguments like the one above. All they do is damage our credibility while leaving science unscathed.
 
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Doug Brents

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That's assuming the days of creation were 24 hours long each.
How many years happen within one evening and one morning? There is no assuming here; only 24 hours fit within one evening and one morning.
And I haven't read any verses in the bible that says the genealogy can be used to determine the age of earth.
Below is a list of the ages of the men in the genealogy of Jesus from Creation down to Jacob (just a small snippet of the full sheet showing the results of my research). The Pharaoh that Joseph served, and the Pharaoh with whom Moses contested, can be identified (with a fair level of certainty) through archaeology (the Exodus most likely happened in 1446BC, which would be 2454 years after Creation). This makes the Earth today 5924 years old. I have put all of this in an Excel spreadsheet that I will send you if you would like to trace the research.

ReferenceGenerationNameAge at sonFurther AgeTotal Age
Gen 5:31Adam130800930
Gen 5:62Seth105807912
Gen 5:93Enosh90815905
Gen 5:124Cainan70840910
Gen 5:155Mahalalel65830895
Gen 5:186Jared162800962
Gen 5:217Enoch65300365
Gen 5:258Methuselah187782969
Gen 5:289Lamech182595777
Gen 5:3210Noah500450950
Gen 11:1011Shem102500602
Gen 11:1212Arphaxad35403438
Gen 11:1413Salah30403433
Gen 11:1614Eber34430464
Gen 11:1815Peleg30209239
Gen 11:2016Reu32207239
Gen 11:2217Serug30200230
Gen 11:2418Nahor29119148
Gen 11:2619Terah70135205
Gen 21:520Abram10075175
Gen 25:2621Isaac60120180
22Jacob8859147
22.11-Reuben
22.22-Simeon
Exo 6:1622.33-Levi - 137137
Exo 6:1822.3.1
Kohath - 133​
133
Exo 6:2022.3.1.1
Amram - 137​
137
22.3.1.1.1
Aaron​
22.3.1.1.2
Moses​
 
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Doug Brents

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That's exactly the approach religious leaders took before and they ended up being wrong. We should be humble enough to admit that it's possible for us to be wrong in our interpretations.
What "religious leaders"? If you are talking about catholic priests, they have been shown to be wrong so many times, that almost anything they say is automatically suspect.
This is a decent place to start: Evolution 101
Don't make me laugh. Evolution is a debunked theory. At its foundation is assumes violations to the "laws of nature" that have been held inviolate since the beginning of "science".
14,000 Christian denominations indicate otherwise.
That number is significantly inflated with the inclusion of anyone who "claims" to be Christian, but should only include those who actually follow what Scripture says. And almost all of those that are actually Christian religions agree on almost all doctrinal issues. There are very few real differences between the numerous Christian religions.
That's your interpretation. Most other Christians (and Jews) disagree.
The Jewish calendar says that this is the year 5780, 143 years younger than I place the world at (5924).
I'm gonna be honest here. It's precisely that sort of uninformed young earth creationist apologetics that makes us, and by by extension, our faith look ridiculous. I also work as a youth pastor and I've seen many young people reject the faith because of arguments like this.

The erosion that took place after the Mt. St. Helens eruption was in volcanic ash and mud. The strata in the Grand Canyon are not like that at all.
Correction here, the strata of the fallout from the eruption mirror the strata in the Grand Canyon (by percentage of thickness and composition) to a degree that there is no margin of error. The experts at answersingenesis are much better at explaining this than I am, and would be much better at presenting it to your youth than whoever it is that they are listening to now.
 
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River Jordan

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What "religious leaders"? If you are talking about catholic priests, they have been shown to be wrong so many times, that almost anything they say is automatically suspect.
You're missing the point. It's about people believing themselves infallible in their interpretations of scripture, not being humble, and their pride leading to a downfall.

Don't make me laugh. Evolution is a debunked theory. At its foundation is assumes violations to the "laws of nature" that have been held inviolate since the beginning of "science".
No, that's not true at all. You don't have to accept it, but you don't need to make false claims like that. We are beholden to the truth, even if it makes us uncomfortable.

That number is significantly inflated with the inclusion of anyone who "claims" to be Christian, but should only include those who actually follow what Scripture says. And almost all of those that are actually Christian religions agree on almost all doctrinal issues. There are very few real differences between the numerous Christian religions.
You're kinda presenting a situation here where it seems you think anyone who disagrees with you and your interpretations isn't a Christian. As I said before, disagreeing with your interpretations is not disagreeing with God or scripture. You're a fallible human, just like the rest of us.

The Jewish calendar says that this is the year 5780, 143 years younger than I place the world at (5924).
Yet Jews don't interpret Genesis like a science paper or history report.

[Correction here, the strata of the fallout from the eruption mirror the strata in the Grand Canyon (by percentage of thickness and composition) to a degree that there is no margin of error. The experts at answersingenesis are much better at explaining this than I am, and would be much better at presenting it to your youth than whoever it is that they are listening to now.
Seriously, please stop. The layers at Mt. St. Helens aren't rock, they're mud and volcanic ash. The layers at the GC are shale, limestone, sandstone, etc.

If you don't know the actual science, at least have the humility to not try and act like you're an expert in it. There's a reason why scripture teaches against such pride.
 
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Frank Robert

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Don't make me laugh. Evolution is a debunked theory. At its foundation is assumes violations to the "laws of nature" that have been held inviolate since the beginning of "science".
Where do you get your information from? What always stands out with statements like yours is that they are never supported by facts and they never, ever provide references links to credible sources.
 
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BeyondET

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How many years happen within one evening and one morning? There is no assuming here; only 24 hours fit within one evening and one morning.

Below is a list of the ages of the men in the genealogy of Jesus from Creation down to Jacob (just a small snippet of the full sheet showing the results of my research). The Pharaoh that Joseph served, and the Pharaoh with whom Moses contested, can be identified (with a fair level of certainty) through archaeology (the Exodus most likely happened in 1446BC, which would be 2454 years after Creation). This makes the Earth today 5924 years old. I have put all of this in an Excel spreadsheet that I will send you if you would like to trace the research.

ReferenceGenerationNameAge at sonFurther AgeTotal Age
Gen 5:31Adam130800930
Gen 5:62Seth105807912
Gen 5:93Enosh90815905
Gen 5:124Cainan70840910
Gen 5:155Mahalalel65830895
Gen 5:186Jared162800962
Gen 5:217Enoch65300365
Gen 5:258Methuselah187782969
Gen 5:289Lamech182595777
Gen 5:3210Noah500450950
Gen 11:1011Shem102500602
Gen 11:1212Arphaxad35403438
Gen 11:1413Salah30403433
Gen 11:1614Eber34430464
Gen 11:1815Peleg30209239
Gen 11:2016Reu32207239
Gen 11:2217Serug30200230
Gen 11:2418Nahor29119148
Gen 11:2619Terah70135205
Gen 21:520Abram10075175
Gen 25:2621Isaac60120180
22Jacob8859147
22.11-Reuben
22.22-Simeon
Exo 6:1622.33-Levi - 137137
Exo 6:1822.3.1
Kohath - 133​
133
Exo 6:2022.3.1.1
Amram - 137​
137
22.3.1.1.1
Aaron​
22.3.1.1.2
Moses​

The earth's rotational speed determines what a day length is perceived from the surface of it. Where was all that during the first couple of days?
 
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David Lamb

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So you think that a wheat crop can grow from planting corn seeds?
Well, here in the UK you can, because "corn" means any kind of cereal grain, We use the term "sweetcorn" for the corn that is "high as an elephant's eye." :)
 
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Doug Brents

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You're missing the point. It's about people believing themselves infallible in their interpretations of scripture, not being humble, and their pride leading to a downfall.
No. It is about interpreting what we see through the lens of what God has told us (like using binoculars the right way), instead of viewing what God told us through the lens of what we see in the natural world (turning binoculars backwards). The first helps us to see further, and gives better clarity to what we see. The second makes the truth harder to see, and shows us less true detail.
No, that's not true at all. You don't have to accept it, but you don't need to make false claims like that. We are beholden to the truth, even if it makes us uncomfortable.
I completely accept ADAPTATION within a species as a truth. But evolution holds forth that birds came from reptiles, reptiles came from fish, fish came from some primitive sea life, and that came from bacteria that was formed in a pool of slime with the right mix of chemicals that was struck by lightning billions of years ago (I know I am skipping steps in their theoretical chain of change).
But "science" tells us that one animal does not change into another animal (or plant). The number of chromosomes in a cell do not change from one generation to another, no matter how many generations you progress through, or what environmental changes occur to cause adaptive change in the physiology of the organism.
You're kinda presenting a situation here where it seems you think anyone who disagrees with you and your interpretations isn't a Christian. As I said before, disagreeing with your interpretations is not disagreeing with God or scripture. You're a fallible human, just like the rest of us.
Not at all. Scripture says that we can disagree on many things and still both be correct (ie: eating meat sacrificed to idols (1 Cor 8). But there are some things that are absolutely essential or we are not Christian at all (belief in the incarnation of God in the form of Jesus, and His death and resurrection (1 Cor 15).
Yet Jews don't interpret Genesis like a science paper or history report.
As a "science paper"? No. As a "history report"? Yes, they do. They have accepted the Torah (the Law), and the Prophets (the Histories) as exactly that, the law and the history of their nation. Up until the Temple was destroyed in AD70, every Jew could recite his genealogy all the way back to Adam, and could prove it with the documents stored in the Temple. And those genealogies were exactly what is found in the Scriptures.
Seriously, please stop. The layers at Mt. St. Helens aren't rock, they're mud and volcanic ash. The layers at the GC are shale, limestone, sandstone, etc.
When they were laid down after the Flood, the layers of the GC were also mud, ash, etc. There were the pulverized earth from the breakup of Pangea into the continents we know today, and the erosion caused by the tsunamis that resulted from the rapid movement of the land masses beneath the water. The coal beds found in several places in the world are the result of the bark from the billions of trees falling off the floating remains and piling up on the bottom, as happened in a lake near Mt St. Helens after the eruption. The "petrified forest" is the result of those floating trees becoming saturated with water and sinking in a standing position so that they appear to have grown where they land (as happened in that same lake.
If you don't know the actual science, at least have the humility to not try and act like you're an expert in it. There's a reason why scripture teaches against such pride.
Granted, I am not a paleontologist, nor am I a geologist. But I have listened to several of them, and have seen the pictures, and read the analysis of the sites from several different geologists. And they are where I get this information. Am I infallible? No. Are they infallible? No. But does their analysis reflect what we read in Scripture? Yes, much better than does the "evolutionist's" analysis.
 
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River Jordan

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No. It is about interpreting what we see through the lens of what God has told us (like using binoculars the right way), instead of viewing what God told us through the lens of what we see in the natural world (turning binoculars backwards). The first helps us to see further, and gives better clarity to what we see. The second makes the truth harder to see, and shows us less true detail.
I disagree. I believe studying God's creation is a compliment to scripture.

I completely accept ADAPTATION within a species as a truth. But evolution holds forth that birds came from reptiles, reptiles came from fish, fish came from some primitive sea life, and that came from bacteria that was formed in a pool of slime with the right mix of chemicals that was struck by lightning billions of years ago (I know I am skipping steps in their theoretical chain of change).
But "science" tells us that one animal does not change into another animal (or plant). The number of chromosomes in a cell do not change from one generation to another, no matter how many generations you progress through, or what environmental changes occur to cause adaptive change in the physiology of the organism.
Ugh. The evolution of new species has been observed many times; it's called speciation. Chromosome counts do change in one generation; it's called polyploidy.

Please stop acting like you're some sort of expert in the science.

Not at all. Scripture says that we can disagree on many things and still both be correct (ie: eating meat sacrificed to idols (1 Cor 8). But there are some things that are absolutely essential or we are not Christian at all (belief in the incarnation of God in the form of Jesus, and His death and resurrection (1 Cor 15).
And interpreting Genesis one way or another isn't a salvation issue.

As a "science paper"? No. As a "history report"? Yes, they do. They have accepted the Torah (the Law), and the Prophets (the Histories) as exactly that, the law and the history of their nation. Up until the Temple was destroyed in AD70, every Jew could recite his genealogy all the way back to Adam, and could prove it with the documents stored in the Temple. And those genealogies were exactly what is found in the Scriptures.
I specifically referred to Genesis and the fact that Jews are not young earth creationists.

When they were laid down after the Flood, the layers of the GC were also mud, ash, etc. There were the pulverized earth from the breakup of Pangea into the continents we know today, and the erosion caused by the tsunamis that resulted from the rapid movement of the land masses beneath the water. The coal beds found in several places in the world are the result of the bark from the billions of trees falling off the floating remains and piling up on the bottom, as happened in a lake near Mt St. Helens after the eruption. The "petrified forest" is the result of those floating trees becoming saturated with water and sinking in a standing position so that they appear to have grown where they land (as happened in that same lake.
Again, please stop trying to act like you know more about the science than professional scientists. Limestone is not mud and ash, but is made up of marine microfossils, completely unlike Mt. St. Helens.

Granted, I am not a paleontologist, nor am I a geologist.
Then please stop acting like you are, or know their professions better than they do. Just in your last post you made several fundamental errors while also trying to speak as an authority.

It's like if someone were trying to criticize the Bible while also saying that Jesus built the ark and Moses was the navigator. Likewise, when you show that you don't know about speciation or polyploidy, and don't know what limestone is, you show that you don't even know the basics of the subject you're trying to criticize.

But I have listened to several of them, and have seen the pictures, and read the analysis of the sites from several different geologists. And they are where I get this information. Am I infallible? No. Are they infallible? No. But does their analysis reflect what we read in Scripture? Yes, much better than does the "evolutionist's" analysis.
In light of your basic mistakes I don't think you're qualified to evaluate the work of geologists. What makes you think you are qualified to do that?
 
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Doug Brents

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I disagree. I believe studying God's creation is a compliment to scripture.
Sure it is a compliment, but the Scripture MUST remain the immovable foundation, with our understanding of what we are studying being shaped by Scripture, rather than our understanding of Scripture being shaped by what we see and study.
Ugh. The evolution of new species has been observed many times; it's called speciation. Chromosome counts do change in one generation; it's called polyploidy.
Ugh is right. Polyploidy does not change one species into another. The number of ploids in each cell do not change the species. It is the number of unique chromosomes and the structure of those chomosomes that make the species. Humans have 23 pair (diploid) of chromosomes. We do not change to 24 pair (chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans)(each having different structures to those chromosomes), nor do we change to 22 (opossum). Even having three pairs of 24 chromosomes would not change our species. And our egg and sperm only have one set of the 23 chromosomes, but still only 23).
And interpreting Genesis one way or another isn't a salvation issue.
It can be. As I said, lack of trust in God's Word demonstrates lack of trust in God, and Genesis is most certainly God's Word, and is therefore completely true and accurate. Jesus quotes from Genesis as being Scripture,
I specifically referred to Genesis and the fact that Jews are not young earth creationists.
The Jews' calendar has the current year as being 5785 from Creation. They are, in fact, young Earth creationists, since they believe in an Earth that is only 5785 years old, and they believe that God created the Earth fully formed in 6 natural days 5785 years ago.
 
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River Jordan

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Sure it is a compliment, but the Scripture MUST remain the immovable foundation, with our understanding of what we are studying being shaped by Scripture, rather than our understanding of Scripture being shaped by what we see and study.
A good example is how Amos says God creates mountains and wind. Then we go out and see volcanoes creating new mountains, and temperature gradients and the earth's rotation creating winds.

Does that mean we have to deny what we see before our eyes and reject volcanism, temperature gradients, and a rotating earth? Of course not! Scripture tells us that God created mountains and wind and His creation tells us how.

Ugh is right. Polyploidy does not change one species into another. The number of ploids in each cell do not change the species. It is the number of unique chromosomes and the structure of those chomosomes that make the species. Humans have 23 pair (diploid) of chromosomes. We do not change to 24 pair (chimpanzees, gorillas, and orangutans)(each having different structures to those chromosomes), nor do we change to 22 (opossum). Even having three pairs of 24 chromosomes would not change our species. And our egg and sperm only have one set of the 23 chromosomes, but still only 23).
Again please stop! You're getting so much wrong it's embarrassing. Polyploid does create new species, "the number of ploids" isn't a thing, and polyploidy is literally a change in the number of chromosomes.

It can be. As I said, lack of trust in God's Word demonstrates lack of trust in God, and Genesis is most certainly God's Word, and is therefore completely true and accurate. Jesus quotes from Genesis as being Scripture,
You just made that up. It's nowhere in scripture.

The Jews' calendar has the current year as being 5785 from Creation. They are, in fact, young Earth creationists, since they believe in an Earth that is only 5785 years old, and they believe that God created the Earth fully formed in 6 natural days 5785 years ago.
Yet Jews aren't young earth creationists, so obviously you're missing something. Have you ever talked with a Jewish person about this?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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All of them? :oops:
well since there were only 8 people who survived the flood. and no structure would survive a massive water event as was seen during the flood.

then yeah..
 
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Job 33:6

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Yet Jews aren't young earth creationists, so obviously you're missing something. Have you ever talked with a Jewish person about this?
YECs are the first people to reject the Jewish Publication Society Bible translation of Genesis 1:1.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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YECs are the first people to reject the Jewish Publication Society Bible translation of Genesis 1:1.
I am a YEC, I went to the link you sent, They all prety much say the same thjng. so what is it that I reject?
 
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River Jordan

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well since there were only 8 people who survived the flood. and no structure would survive a massive water event as was seen during the flood.

then yeah..
So three guys built these.

GettyRF_1085205362.jpg


And that includes quarrying and transporting all the stone.

I don't know if it's worth it to ask but, how in the world did 3 people do all that?
 
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