Putting events in Revelation in chronological order?

[Riberra]

Why is it you have this urge to rearrange John's book? WHERE does John see the two witnesses? It is AFTER the mention of the 42 months of trampling.

they testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then are raised up at the 7th vial -

Why do you rearrange John's book to say that they will be killed before the 7 TH VIAL in Revelation 16 ?

John in Revelation 11:7-15 tell us that they will be killed and will ascend to Heaven BEFORE the 7 TH TRUMPET....

The 6 TH trumpet is the SECOND WOE events....1/3 of humanity will have been killed by the strange horses like creatures...at the time that the two witnesses will be killed by the Beast who have ascendeth out of the bottomless pit Revelation 11:7.
Revelation 11:14
14 The second Woe is past: behold, the third Woe cometh quickly.

The 7 Th trumpet announce the THIRD WOE...

Thus The 1,260 days of their testimony have to begin 1,260 days before the 7 Th Trumpet....

The Third WOE [duration 42 months]will have the Woman that will flee in the wilderness ....Just before that Satan will be Cast Out Of Heaven and the beginning of the 42 months Reign of the Beast...which will include the 7 Vials of the Wrath of God to AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE CHRISTIANS [Revelation 16]....and the Coming of Jesus for the Battle of Armageddon.

 

[Revealing Times]

now it has 'caught back up to' where it was before - the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, end of 2nd woe

you want to say that the 42 months happen after the 2nd woe/ 1260 days, after the 2 witnesses are gone, but who are the saints that are being warred on in Revelation 13?

5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
why didn't the saints get removed/ told to come up here? they weren't holy enough to get 'whisked away' with the 2 witnesses?

and please don't say that they are 'tribulation saints' which is offensive on many levels

this is the way it should go:

start the 42 months
great tribulation (during the 7 seals) (during the seals & at the 5th seal, the elect that are killed are taken to heaven to protect them from the 'hour of tribulation'

Douggg tries to put Revelations together in an odd way. I use what God intended us to use, the 1260 Days/42 Month markers everything is designed around, for a reason. A time, times and half time, the Middle of the week are all designed around the Day of the Lord which happens at the opening of the very First Seal.

Chapters 1,2 and 3 happened 2000 years ago. Chapters 4,5, 7 and 19 is the Raptured Church in Heaven and chapters 6, 8, 9 and 16 is the 21 Judgments in order. Chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18 are just visions inside those happenings so to speak.

In other words if I told a story about my birth (Ch. 1,2, 3) then about a future time in another world (Saints raptured in heaven, chapters 4, 5, 7 and 19) that would be akin to Johns mentioning the Church ON EARTH, then in HEAVEN. Lets then switch to another story about another person.

Now I tell the story of my brothers on earth (Israel, TARES) they go through 21 Judgments of God which are described in chapters 6, 8, 9 and 16. For sure the 21 Judgments are described in those chapters, but God wants us to understand DEEPER JUDGMENTS within each of these groups of Seals, Trumpets and Vials but he doesn't want to interfere with the theme of the 21 Judgments as per those four chapters, so he gives VISIONS of things happening while these 21 Judgments are happening. Most everyone of these chapters overlap and most are centralized around the MIDDLE OF THE WEEK.

1. Rev. 11 shows the two-witnesses whose 1260 days starts before the Middle of the week and ends at the 2nd Woe.

2. Rev. 12 covers the 1260 days, because Israel FLEES Judea !! (starts in Rev, ch. 6)

3. Rev. 13 covers the 42 Months because the Beast Arises out of the Gentile Sea. (Rev. 6 also)

4. Rev. 14 is I think the Harvest (Rapture) and the Harvest of the Wine-press of Wrath.

5. Rev. 15 is a Vision of the Angels readying the Wrath of Gods Vials.

6. Rev. 17 is the Harlot being Judged (False Religion) and that happens at the very First Seal time.

7. Rev. 18 is Babylon (World) being Judged by the 21 Judgments, it starts in Rev. 6 and runs through Rev. ch. 16.........IT IS DONE.

 

[Douggg]

Question:
Is the 42 months of trampling fulfilled in verse 2? In other words, is verse 3 now 42 months AFTER verse 2?

In chapter 12, is 12:7, 1260 days AFTER 12:6?

In chapter 12, verse 14, is verse 15, 3 1/2 years AFTER verse 14?

In chapter 13, is verse 6, 42 months AFTER verse 5?

lamad, the 1260 days is not after the 42 months, in Revelation 11, on the timeline. Followed by 3 1/2 days. Followed by another 1260 days in Revelation 12, followed by a time, times, half times. Followed by another 42 months in Revelation 13.

In Revelation, the presentations are not linear on a time line. A person has to examine the events themselves. And put together a timeline.

If a person adhered to your concept, then it would be....

42 months (11:2) + 1260 days (11:3) + 3 1/2 days (11:11) + 1260 days (12:6) + a time, times, half times (12:14) + 42 months (13:5) = 14 years.

Your approach is incorrect. The timeline is 7 years long. And the timeline is built by placing the event on the timeline.

 

[Douggg]

Chapters 1,2 and 3 happened 2000 years ago. Chapters 4,5, 7 and 19 is the Raptured Church in Heaven and chapters 6, 8, 9 and 16 is the 21 Judgments in order. Chapters 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17 and 18 are just visions inside those happenings so to speak.

day 1.................day 1185 great tribulation begins................1335 days..............Jesus returns.

The great tribulation begins when the image of the beast is setup to be worshiped.

Chapter 6 is the entire 7 years.

Chapter 7 is the sealing right before the great tribulation, and a picture of them martyred during the great tribulation.

Chapter 8 is the first four trumpets, the plagues by the two witnesses, after the great tribulation begins.

Chapter 7 is the woes, signaled by the last three trumpets of the great tribulation.

Chapter 10 is a vision of the 7thunders, to announce the time for the prosecution of Satan has come when the seven trumpet sounds, signaling the third woe Satan cast down to earth, during the great trilublation.

Chapter 11 is about two witnesses mostly, during the first 1260 days. The last 75 days of which are during the great tribulation.

Chapter 12 establishes the basis for the 7 year timeline. On which, Satan will be cast down to earth for the time, time, half times, during the great tribulation.

Chapter 13, is the beast rule during the great tribulation with the two witnesses no longer on the earth.

Chapter 14 is about the 144,000 who do not not worship the beast nor his image during the great tribulation.

Chapter 15 and 16 is about the vials of wrath of God poured out during the great tribulation.

Chapter 17 is about the major players. The ten kings and 7 kings, the beast, the great harlot. historic and future.

Chapter 18 is about the downfall of Satan's kingdom.

 

[Douggg]

1. Rev. 11 shows the two-witnesses whose 1260 days starts before the Middle of the week and ends at the 2nd Woe.

RT, the second woe is back in Revelation 9, the killing of a third of mankind. The two witnesses are independent of the woes. The two witnesses don't kill a third of mankind, nor is it in the text in Revelation 11 about a third of mankind being killed.

You are not reading Revelation 11 correctly. John does not see a vision of the two witnesses. He is told all about the two witnesses. The angel talking about the Two witnesses STOPS in 11:13.

Verse 11:14 is not a CONTINUATION of the two witnesses of the angel speaking.

Instead of the angel talking to John, John in verse 14 begins to speak to the reader, continuing from Revelation 9, which has the second woe, because John tells us he hears the 7th trumpet sound.

The angel speaking to John in red. John speaking to the reader, US, in blue.


1.And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

_____________________________________________________________

I try to present other possibilities when appropriate, so it could be argued that as the angel is talking to John, John begins to see the two witnesses doing what the angel is telling him about. And in verse 11, John sees the spirit of life enter the two witnesses and John sees them hearing the voice to come up hither and sees the great earthquake in verse 13 take place.

Regardless, the second woe is the killing of a third of mankind, not the two witnesses.

 

[BABerean2]

I must ask you, do you understand a parenthesis?

Yes.

A parenthesis is what the Dispensationalist uses to twist the scripture to make his doctrine work.

If we have the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the "time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18 the Dispensationalist claims it is a "parenthesis".

Otherwise, he would have to admit that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

He does the same thing when Christ returns "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16.



.

 

[iamlamad]

Why do you rearrange John's book to say that they will be killed before the 7 TH VIAL in Revelation 16 ?
...
Thus The 1,260 days of their testimony have to begin 1,260 days before the 7 Th Trumpet....

I am not rearranging. I am understanding. You are not.

Questions to be answered:
Is 11:3 - 42 months later than 11:2?
Is 12:7 - 1260 days after 12:6?
Is 13:6 42 months after 13:5?

The answer is NO NO NO! When John mentions a number, such as 1260, the countdown will BEGIN in the verse of mention. So in Rev. 11:3 that is the time the 1260 days countdown will BEGIN, not end! God is consistent, not confused. Revelation is a REVEALING not a confusing.

Chapters 11 through 14 are MIDPOINT chapters. The timing in John's narrative is at the midpoint. The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.

All five of these mentions of time countdowns are for the LAST half of the week. They all run parallel to each other.

Is 13:15-16 midpoint events? NO! But they are written at the midpoint as a parenthesis.

In two cases out of 5, John chooses to take us on a side journey down the path in the first case, of the two witnesses, to show us what will happen to them later in the last half of the week.

In the second case, John does the same thing, showing us what the Beast and False Prophet will be doing during the second half of the week.

You are missing the parenthesis: (...)
Rev 11:
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
...
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.)
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; ...

For TIMING and CHRONOLOGY, follow the red letters and jump over the parenthesis in green! This is the intent of the Author!

For chronology:
Rev. 11:1
11:2
11:3
Parenthesis
11:14
11:15

Until you understand where John wrote parenthesis you will never understand John's chronology.

|--------> 42 months of trampling
|--------> 1260 days of testifying
MIDPOINT ABOMININATION
|--------> 1260 days of fleeing
|--------> 3.5 years of protection
|--------> 42 months of authority

The "|" is the starting point of all 5 countdowns, but it is a staggered start. These 5 counts will not begin on the same day.

John shows us 5 parallel time channels to the end, all running parallel or simultaneously. All for the last half of the week.

Until you get this down, you will always be mistaken on John's chronology.

 

[Riberra]

I am not rearranging. I am understanding. You are not.

Questions to be answered:
Is 11:3 - 42 months later than 11:2?
Is 12:7 - 1260 days after 12:6?
Is 13:6 42 months after 13:5?

The answer is NO NO NO! When John mentions a number, such as 1260, the countdown will BEGIN in the verse of mention. So in Rev. 11:3 that is the time the 1260 days countdown will BEGIN, not end! God is consistent, not confused. Revelation is a REVEALING not a confusing.

Chapters 11 through 14 are MIDPOINT chapters. The timing in John's narrative is at the midpoint. The exact midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet.


All five of these mentions of time countdowns are for the LAST half of the week. They all run parallel to each other.



Is 13:15-16 midpoint events? NO! But they are written at the midpoint as a parenthesis.

In two cases out of 5, John chooses to take us on a side journey down the path in the first case, of the two witnesses, to show us what will happen to them later in the last half of the week.

No ...what John tell us is that at some point in time the court of the Temple will be trampled by the Gentiles during 42 months....>surely making reference to when the Beast will take power for 42 months [Revelation 13:3-5] not long after that he will have killed two witnesses [Revelation 11:7]

In the second case, John does the same thing, showing us what the Beast and False Prophet will be doing during the second half of the week.

Your problem is that you are unable to identify that the Beast who ascend out of the Bottomless Pit as soon that the Bottomless pit will be opened at the 5 Th Trumpet [Revelation 9] is the Beast /ANTICHRIST [Revelation 9:11]that the whole Earth shall wonder [Revelation 13:3-5] [Revelation 17:8]...who will take power after that he will have killed the two witnesses Revelation 11:7...The killing of the two witnesses before the 7 Th Trumpet [mid point] will make him the most popular "man" in the world ....

Note that we will never heard any of the 7 Tribulation trumpets that will sound in Heaven....only the events associated with each of these 7 Tribulation Trumpets will tell us the period of Tribulation we will be in ..., if we have the misfortune to be ALIVE during those times ...

 

[sdowney717]

Ah! this is easy: just read it as given! It is written in Chronological order.

However, it is not quite that simple! John has some parentheses, but did not use any marks to show them. AT least two of these parentheses were history to John, events that happened before John saw the vision. Then, other parentheses are future to the time John was seeing this vision. The only way to detect these is by study, prayer and praying much in the Holy Spirit.

And example of a parenthesis that most people miss.

Rev. 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The writing above that is in red is written as a parenthesis. For chronology, read the blue:

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

John is right at the midpoint here in chapter 11, and in chapters 11 through 13 will write about (and begin each count) 5 different events that will happen just before, right at, and just after, the exact midpoint.

The 42 month count begins in verse 2. The 1260 day count begins in verse 3. The next two counts will begin in chapter 12. The two witnesses begin there testimony right where John first sees them, which is just 3 1/2 days before the man of sin will enter the temple and the abomination will take place. They testify for 1260 days, which will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. they are killed and lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then rise up at the 7th vial, when all the Old Testament saints rise. The earthquake when the two rise, is the same earthquake as at the 7th vial.

If people don't recognize verses 4-13 as a parenthesis, they imagine the two witnesses testify in the first half of the week. What John does is take the reader down a side journey of the last half of the week, with only the two witnesses. Then he snaps right back to the exact point he left off: just before the midpoint.

In chapter 12, we see another parenthesis: the first five verses.

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

For chronology, we would read:

Rev 11:
15 And the seventh angel sounded [exact midpoint marked] ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshiped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

In chapter 13, John repeats what he did in 11: he writes the chronological verses, then goes into a parenthesis for the rest of the chapter; another "side journey" down the last half of the week with the two Beasts. But again, in chapter 14, is right back on chronology, shortly after the midpoint.

If you think chronological order is so certain, then you become a post trib rapturist, because of Rev 16, the sixth bowl is poured out, then Christ says He is still yet to come as a THIEF.
He only comes as a thief to those who are not expecting Him to come.
Note this is also the time they are gathered to the battle of Armageddon, long long past a pre trib rapture position.
Furthermore you must become one regardless of it being linear timeline or not, simply because those events are occurring and Christ has not yet come.

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

 

[iamlamad]

No ...what John tell us is that at some point in time the court of the Temple will be trampled by the Gentiles during 42 months....>surely making reference to when the Beast will take power for 42 months [Revelation 13:3-5] not long after that he will have killed two witnesses [Revelation 11:7]

First, when John mentions any timing that covers 3.5 years, we know that he is near the midpoint of the week in his narrative. (That is, people with a little common sense know)

Next, we know he is speaking of an event that will START at or near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Paul tells us that at the time God decrees, (the one restraining taken out of the way) the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god.

We know from Daniel 9:27 that some event stops the daily sacrifices, and that event will divide the week into two equal halves; hense we say "the midpoint."

From deduction, we know that if ANYONE other than the High Priest enters the most holy place in the temple, the temple is defiled and the daily sacrifices must cease. Therefore, we know that when the man of sin enters the temple, the sacrifices will stop. It will be the abomination.

So, YES, some point in time the daily sacrifices will cease, and the city of Jerusalem and the outer court of the temple will be trampled by Gentiles.

Perhaps you have not made the connection: when the man of sin declares he is god, he will have opened himself up for possession and he will be possessed by Satan. He will then be called the BEAST of Revelation 13.

However, the 42 months of trampling will begins slightly before the 42 months of authority.

You are mistaken on the time the two witnesses will be killed. You still have not understood John's parenthesis.

 

[iamlamad]

Your problem is that you are unable to identify that the Beast who ascend out of the Bottomless Pit as soon that the Bottomless pit will be opened at the 5 Th Trumpet [Revelation 9] is the Beast /ANTICHRIST [Revelation 9:11]that the whole Earth shall wonder [Revelation 13:3-5] [Revelation 17:8]...who will take power after that he will have killed the two witnesses Revelation 11:7...The killing of the two witnesses before the 7 Th Trumpet [mid point] will make him the most popular "man" in the world ....

This is conjecture, imagination and human reasoning! Oh, and confusion added!

STOP trying to rearrange! John tells us of the 42 months of trampling. This is the very first mention of an event that will start at the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

In your theory, the very next verse must back up 3 1/2 years to the start of the week for the two witnesses to begin. WRONG!

Understand (or do you best; TRY) that this is like a history book written in advance, with clear chronology. God is not trying to confuse us.

If verses 1 and 2 are speaking of an event (RIGHT THEN) that will start a countdown to the end, as the 42 months is, then the next verse will be at the same time. And it is.

What is the TIME at 11:3? Do you know? You should know, for John tells us. It is VERY CLOSE to the midpoint of the week. (the 7th trumpet marks the exactly midpoint.) This is just a few verses before the 7th trumpet will sound. In fact, it is 3.5 days before the 7th trumpet will sound - which is the very time the man of sin will enter the temple.

The next REAL-TIME event will be the 7th trumpet, NOT the two witnesses doing anything. Verses 11:4 to 11:13 are a parenthesis with NO BEARING on Chronology. John takes us on a side journey in a parenthesis down the last half of the week with the two witnesses. But in verse 14 snaps right back to midpoint when the 7th trumpet sounds.

It appears then to the causual reader that the death of the two witnesses comes before the 7th trumpet. If that were true, then they only testified for 3 days! It is NOT true, because those verses are written as a parenthesis.

Please show us a timeline that includes all five mentions of the 3/5 years as shown in Revelation. A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[Riberra]

First, when John mentions any timing that covers 3.5 years, we know that he is near the midpoint of the week in his narrative. (That is, people with a little common sense know)

Next, we know he is speaking of an event that will START at or near the midpoint and go to the end of the week.

Paul tells us that at the time God decrees, (the one restraining taken out of the way) the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is god.

We know from Daniel 9:27 that some event stops the daily sacrifices, and that event will divide the week into two equal halves; hense we say "the midpoint."

It is a mistake to believe that Daniel 9:23-27 have something to do with Revelation 13.

(That is, people with a little common sense know)


Revelation 13 is related to the Little Horn of Daniel 7...[a time ..and times and half a time (3 1/2 years)]

From deduction, we know that if ANYONE other than the High Priest enters the most holy place in the temple, the temple is defiled and the daily sacrifices must cease. Therefore, we know that when the man of sin enters the temple, the sacrifices will stop. It will be the abomination.

That was done when the Roman Army which were an abomination for the Jews defiled the temple in 68 AD before destroying it and the City in 70 AD.

 

[iamlamad]

If you think chronological order is so certain, then you become a post trib rapturist, because of Rev 16, the sixth bowl is poured out, then Christ says He is still yet to come as a THIEF.
He only comes as a thief to those who are not expecting Him to come.
Note this is also the time they are gathered to the battle of Armageddon, long long past a pre trib rapture position.
Furthermore you must become one regardless of it being linear timeline or not, simply because those events are occurring and Christ has not yet come.

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Did you notice that nowhere in chapter 16, where the 70th week ends, do we find His coming? No, His coming is in chapter 19. This shows us that the time of His coming will be unknown. It will be unknown for His 2nd coming FOR His saints (pretrib), and it will be unknown for His 3rd coming WITH His saints. (However, one coming will be in glory and power and every eye will see Him, while in another coming He will be hidden in a cloud.)

Do you imagine that the devil can gather the combined armies of the world instantly? No, it will take TIME to bring them all to Israel. The time the events in chapters 17 and 18 take place!

As usual, a posttrib argument is no argument at all.

 

[iamlamad]

It is a mistake to believe that Daniel 9:23-27 have something to do with Revelation 13.

(That is, people with a little common sense know)


Revelation 13 is related to the Little Horn of Daniel 7.


That was done when the roman army which were an abomination for the Jews defiled the temple in 68 AD before destroying it and the City in 70 AD.

What you still don't know, is that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is the little horn of Daniel 7.

Sorry, but your imagination is running wild again. NO "man of sin" entered the temple in 70 AD and declared he was god. And no "false prophet" showed up a while later and convinced the people to erect an image and place it in the most holy place in the temple. They couldn't because the temple was torn down! Adnd no "mark" was established then either. See how silly some theories are? You really do need to learn the word FUTURE and what it means.

 

[Riberra]

What you still don't know, is that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is the little horn of Daniel 7.

No the "he" was Jesus using the Roman Army to destroy the Temple and the City in 70 AD ...which fulfilled the last part of Daniel 9:27.
and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.

Sorry, but your imagination is running wild again. NO "man of sin" entered the temple in 70 AD and declared he was god. And no "false prophet" showed up a while later and convinced the people to erect an image and place it in the most holy place in the temple. They couldn't because the temple was torn down! Adnd no "mark" was established then either. See how silly some theories are? You really do need to learn the word FUTURE and what it means.

As i said Daniel 9:27 have nothing to do with the future little horn of Daniel 7 who is the Beast of Revelation 13 that the whole Earth shall wonder ...who shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit mentioned in Revelation 17:8

 

[iamlamad]

No the "he" was Jesus using the Roman Army to destroy the Temple and the City in 70 AD ...which fulfilled the last part of Daniel 9:27.
and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.


As i said Daniel 9:27 have nothing to do with the future little horn of Daniel 7 who is the Beast of Revelation 13 that the whole Earth shall wonder ...who shall ascend out of the Bottomless Pit mentioned in Revelation 17:8

Yes, you said it, but that does not make it truth. It is NOT truth.

 

[Riberra]

Yes, you said it, but that does not make it truth. It is NOT truth.

Daniel 9:23-27 have been entirely fulfilled in the time of Jesus and the apostles [the prophesied Messiah who was to come after the 69 TH Week]

 

[Truth7t7]

I see those that FLEE to the Wilderness as being Israel, although they have accepted the Messiah Jesus by this time. But the Remnant Church is not protected, she is killed off, she is the Martyrs under the Alter in the 5th Seal.

I don't believe they will be preaching, nor do I think there is 144,000 who are preachers, I think the 144,000 are those in the WILDERNESS, its just a number of FULLNESS...12 X 12 X 12. All Israel.

The Beast rules for 42 months but he does it through the 21 plagues/judgments.

I see the remnanat Church and the 144,000 as the same group of believers during the tribulation "Church"

 

[tranquil]

The tribulation is over before the gathering. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. There will be a pretribulation rapture for church and a prewrath rapture for the 12 tribes.

The great tribulation is partially or entirely started in the seals. At the 6th seal it is ended. Then the tares are gathered by the false prophet and the elect are physically gathered not whisked away.

The false prophet gets to rule the tares for 1260 days. The delay of punishment leads the tares into thinking that they are safe and correct in their choice of messiah.

 

[Riberra]

I see those that FLEE to the Wilderness as being Israel, although they have accepted the Messiah Jesus by this time. But the Remnant Church is not protected, she is killed off, she is the Martyrs under the Alter in the 5th Seal.

I don't believe they will be preaching, nor do I think there is 144,000 who are preachers, I think the 144,000 are those in the WILDERNESS, its just a number of FULLNESS...12 X 12 X 12. All Israel.

The Beast rules for 42 months but he does it through the 21 plagues/judgments.

The 144,000 is the ONLY GROUP CITED AS BEING REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH
They are SEEN IN HEAVEN [Revelation 14:1-5]while God will send 3 FLYING ANGELS on the Earth at the beginning of the implementation of the MARK....one of the 3 flying angels will warn people to not take the Mark nor worship the Beast[Revelation 14:6-12].