Putting events in Revelation in chronological order?

[iamlamad]

The tribulation is over before the gathering. Then the wrath of God begins.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

You are mistaken. You have put the signs of Matthew 24 with the signs of Rev. 6 and THEY ARE DIFFERENT SIGNS that will come a two DIFFERENT TIMES, and for TWO DIFFERENT PURPOSES.

The signs shown at the 6th seal are the signs for the coming Day of the Lord, as Joel 2 shows us. Here the moon will be visible and will appear red.

The sign shown in Matthew 24 is a completely different sign for the coming of Our Lord with the armies of heaven. In this sign there is TOTAL DARKNESS. No red moon - no - no moon at all! It will not be seen. Neither will there be any light for any star, and the sun will not give its light either. Matthew is talking about TOTAL darkness.

The gathering for the rapture will take place before the 6th seal sign.
The gathering in Matthew 24 will come after the 7th vial that ends the week.

 

[iamlamad]

when the day of the Lord occurs, the great tribulation will be finished - for the elect only. They are gathered. the great tribulation continues on for the people who follow the antichrist & false prophet.

Sorry, but this is myth. John shows us that the Day of the Lord (His wrath) will begin at the 6th seal. The days of GT will not begin for another 3 1/2 years! So you timing is way way off.

John's (and Paul's) chronology:
5th seal: martyrs of the church age: still happening and the number still climbing.

Rapture of the church as per 1 thes. 4 & 5

6th seal and beginning of the Day of the Lord.
...also Paul's "sudden destruction" which will be the 6th seal earthquake.

7th seal: the 70th week will officially begin.

 

[iamlamad]

why mangle the time line? the 1st time-frame mentioned is the 42 months... then the 1260 days (which is tied to the 2nd woe & 2 witnesses!

you are mangling the timeline because you have a locked-in, preconceived notion of how it is supposed to go down

WOW! You have hit the nail squarely on the head here! Great job!

Preconceived glasses are so amazing, keeping people from reading scripture correctly.

 

[iamlamad]

the 6th Trumpet war has just occurred in Rev 9

Rev 10
5 And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven 6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

now it transitions back in time
​

8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me again, saying, “Go, take the scroll that is open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.”​

No, not even. It is no "transition back in time." Verse 7 is only prophesying what will happen WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds - but it has not sounded yet in chapter 10.​

 

[BABerean2]

You are mistaken. You have put the signs of Matthew 24 with the signs of Rev. 6 and THEY ARE DIFFERENT SIGNS that will come a two DIFFERENT TIMES, and for TWO DIFFERENT PURPOSES.

The signs shown at the 6th seal are the signs for the coming Day of the Lord, as Joel 2 shows us. Here the moon will be visible and will appear red.

The sign shown in Matthew 24 is a completely different sign for the coming of Our Lord with the armies of heaven. In this sign there is TOTAL DARKNESS. No red moon - no - no moon at all! It will not be seen. Neither will there be any light for any star, and the sun will not give its light either. Matthew is talking about TOTAL darkness.

The gathering for the rapture will take place before the 6th seal sign.
The gathering in Matthew 24 will come after the 7th vial that ends the week.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is one of several passages, which is a vision of the Second Coming of Christ.

He also returns at the end of chapter 11, with the 7th trumpet, and "the time of the judgment of the dead".

He returns in the "harvest" of chapter 14.

He returns "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16.

He returns in chapter 19.

All of these prove that the book is not in chronological order.

.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev 11

Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

3 And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”​

now it has 'caught back up to' where it was before - the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, end of 2nd woe

​

I disagree. There is no catching up because in chapter 10 John went into an "intermission." You could all it a parenthesis. In chapter 11:1 He is out of that intermission for verses 1-3. But verses 11:4 - 11:13 are a parenthesis. It is John taking us down the last half of the week for the two witnesses only. In 11:14 He is right back to real-time and the 7th trumpet sounds.

The timing is this:

11:1-2 are showing is that the man of sin has just arrived in Jerusalem with his Gentile armies. (I suspect Muslim armies.) He arrives probably 3 1/2 days before he will enter the temple and declare he is god. This event will divide the week, so it is the abomination that Jesus mentioned. The 7th trumpet will sound to mark that exact time in heaven.

11:3: the two witnesses show up (because the man of sin showed up) 3 1/2 days before the exact midpoint, and begin their testimony. As Daniel shows us, they testify for 1260 days, taking them to just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. They lay dead for those 3 1/2 days, then are raised up at the 7th vial - with all the Old Testament saints. The earthquake in Rev. 11 is the same earthquake as shown at the 7th vial.

John's chronology then is as follows:
11:1-2: the city will be trampled for 42 months.
11:3: the two witness suddenly show up and begin their testimony.
(Parenthesis)
11:14 - 11:15: the 7th trumpet sounds, marking the midpoint.
12:6: those in Judea begin to flee.
12:7 The war in heaven begins.​

 

[Revealing Times]

There is no GAP, the 70 Weeks of Daniel prophecy Daniel 9:23-27represented a period of time of 490 consecutive years...The Messiah arrived to begin His testimony [Jesus on a donkey entering Jerusalem] as predicted after the 69 TH WEEK....

There IS A GAP in all things Israel for almost 2000 years. Lets look at the two pictures that God painted for us of Israel. One was a Statue Dan. ch. 2 the other was Five Beasts of Dan. ch. 7. Both show us a picture Israel's full life-span as God sees Israel.

Ezekiel's prophecy of "Dead Men's Bones" is the key to understanding this gap in Israel life-span in my opinion. This also matches with the Prophecy Jeremiah gave and with the understanding of this prophecy Gabriel gave unto Daniel.

1.) The Statue JUMPS (GAP) from the Legs of Iron (Rome) to the Feet and 10 toes of Iron & Clay (Anti-Christ and his Kings)

2. The picture of the Beasts JUMPS (GAP) from the Fourth Beast (Iron Kingdom) to the Fifth Beast and his 10 Kings (Daniel 7:11 calls THE MAN a Beast, there are 5 Beasts in Daniel)

3. The 70 week prophecy as told to Daniel by Gabriel specifically divides the prophecy up into three distinct prophesies, on purpose, God doesn't do things without reasons. There are three different prophecies, one comes at the end of time after Israel has been reborn as a nation.

When Rome dispersed Israel all over the world, the Rome ceased being a Beast, that was the "Mortal Wound" of Rev. 13, because of the Seven Beast Heads six were in the past, only the Seventh, the Anti-Christ who Conquers Jerusalem to become the LAST BEAST, is a future Beast. Thus God saw Israel as DEAD......NOT ALIVE.......They were as Dead Men's Bones unto Him for almost 2000 years, then God breathed life back into them and those Dead men's bones came alive again, thus we can now have the Last Beast that rules over Israel, thus the GAP !!

Ezekiel 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest. 4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. 5 Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. 7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

So God saw Israel's life-span as shown via the Statue....5 Beasts.....70 weeks Prophecy as being from Babylon to Rome........GAP Israel is no more, they are dead unto God........Israel is REBORN some 2000 years later in 1948. Its not really a Gap as God sees it, God is looking at Israel via their full life-span as He sees them, He saw them as DEAD MEN'S BONES for 2000 years, God turned His back on Israel and the Church Age was born, when the time of the Gentiles is come full (Rapture) Israel will be back on the clock as per the 70th Week of punishment which is designed to bring them unto repentance. (10 Toes....10 Kings......70th Week....LAST BEAST all suddenly converge at one moment in time !! I wonder why? God planned it that way.

 

[iamlamad]

this is the way it should go:

start the 42 months
great tribulation (during the 7 seals) (during the seals & at the 5th seal, the elect that are killed are taken to heaven to protect them from the 'hour of tribulation'

MYTH! The 7 seals are sealing the document that is most of the Revelation book! You will to open the book before all 7 seals are opened. Sorry, but that is impossible. What we read after the 7th seal in chapter 8 is what is written INSIDE the scroll. NONE of it can happen until all 7 seals are opened.

THEREFORE, no trumpet will be given to any angels until all 7 seals are opened. Next, the days of great tribulation CANNOT and will not begin until the last half of the week, as shown near the end of chapter 12. Why try rearranging John's God given Chronology? It is not necessary.

As for the 5th seal, you are simply not understanding the book!

The 5th seal is CHURCH AGE. It is the martyrs of the church age. Without a doubt, Stephen was one of them. If they were 70th week martyrs, no need for them to ask "how long." They would know they just had to wait out the 7 years. But Stephen and others that Saul had killed? They had NO IDEA how long it would be until judgment. So they asked. And I believe they were told they must wait for the very last of their kind - the last church age martyr. And that martyr would come just before the rapture ends the church age.

OF COURSE they go to heaven, because they are born again and then murdered. As Paul said, "absent from the body is present with the Lord."

 

[iamlamad]

why didn't the saints get removed/ told to come up here? they weren't holy enough to get 'whisked away' with the 2 witnesses?

and please don't say that they are 'tribulation saints' which is offensive on many levels

We don't really have to say they are tribulation saints: John has done that well by using the word "Remnant" in chapter 12. there is only one reason for him to use that word: the main load was taken out before the week began. All that is left is a remnant...a small, left over portion.

What do you mean, "come up here?" Are you hinting at Rev. 4:1? Sorry, that was JOHN being called up. Anyone imagining that is a reference to the rapture is must imagining myths. That was John called up around 95 AD so we would have this book to study.

Your timing on WHEN the two witnesses are caught up is also faulty. They will be caught up at the 7th vial that ends the week. That is when ALL the Old Testament saints rise. How many times did Jesus tell them, "on the last day?"
1st seal - 32 AD: the gospel is to be taken to the nations.
2-4 seals - the devil's attempts to halt the advance of the gospel.
Also opened around 32 AD.
5th seal
rapture
6th seal
7th seal
1 - 6 trumpets
the man of sin shows up in Jerusalem with Gentile armies.
The two witnesses show up and begin testifying.
The 7th trumpet sounds
Those in Judea begin to flee
The war in heaven begins.

This is John's God given chronology. there is no need to rearrange it.

 

[iamlamad]

5 months prior to the end of the 42 months (ie, 7 seals great tribulation is shortened by 5 months.
the elect (that were not killed) come out of the 'great tribulation' & are gathered at the day of the Lord/ start of 7 trumpets/ end 7 seals Revelation 7:13-14

This is myth that cannot be backed up by scripture.

There is no such thing as "the 7 seals great tribulation." Myth.
The seals seal the document and it cannot be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments, then the vial judgments UNTIL all 7 seals are opened. And John does not arrive at the midpoint of the week until the 7th trumpet, and the days of great tribulation are in the LAST HALF of the week, after the false prophet shows up, and after the image and mark are created. Why are you rearranging? There is no need, for John wrote Revelation in perfect order.
The "end" of the days of great tribulation will be some unknown time after a few of the vials have been poured out. God will use the vials to "shorten" those days of GT.

Did you just not notice that the beheaded people only begin to show up in heaven in chapter 15? That means the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not even start until after chapter 14.

The 70th week and time of Jacob's trouble will end at the 7th vial that ends the week. But Jesus will not return then. It will be time for he marriage and supper in heaven.

 

[iamlamad]

6th Trumpet war starts at the end of the 42 months, this battle leads to the son of perdition/ Lucifer being crowned the messiah who will then confirm the Mosaic covenant on Yom Kippur. This event starts the 2 witnesses 1260 day period/ 2nd woe. Lucifer, the son of perdition, the false prophet will make a statue of his father, the beast during the initial 42 months.

More myth. Quit rearranging! The 6th trumpet judgment will come towards the end of the first 42 months. It will be before the midpoint of the week (7th trumpet). This battle leads to nothing: it ENDS. One 3rd of earth's population is wiped out. Then, after it is finished and the horsemen go back to where they came from, it is time for the 7th trumpet which will be the final woe.

John tells us exactly when the two witnesses show up: exactly 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. They will testify for most of the last half of the week.

No no no! It is the False Prophet that gives the Beast the idea of an image. Did you not read?

Rev. 13:
1 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

So this image will be erected some unknown time after the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. We don't know the time between the revealing of the antichrist to the time the false prophet will show up.

 

[iamlamad]

the beast from the sea/ mortally head wounded individual from the initial 42 months continues on as 'the beast'. The 'antichrist' dies at the 42 month marker. His kingdom doesn't die. that's why it is 'the beast & false prophet' that get thrown into the lake of fire at the end, it never says 'antichrist & false prophet'.

In the first half of the week, it is the man of sin, NOT YET REVEALED as the Beast of chapter 13. It is probable that during the first half he takes out three of ten kings and becomes the 8th leader of the remaining 7 kingdoms.

AT the midpoint, when he declares he is god, he is then revealed as the Beast. As the Beast he is given 42 months of authority. I suspect his 42 months will begin some unknown time after the 42 months of authority will begin. If you will notice, John does not ever call the Beast "antichrist" in Revelation. The Antichrist man does not die. He is very much alive when caught with the False prophet and cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Douggg]

you want to say that the 42 months happen after the 2nd woe/ 1260 days, after the 2 witnesses are gone, but who are the saints that are being warred on in Revelation 13?

No, I do not say the 42 months happen on a timeline after the second woe takes place. The second woe is the sixth trumpet which happens at the end to the seven years, at the end of the 42 months..

The saints that are being warred against in Revelation 13 are worldwide and them in Israel who haven't fled into the wilderness in time.
____________________________________________________________________________

Please take another look at Revelation 11:1 - 13. Everything about the two witnesses, John is not seeing in a vision, but is being told about by the angel.

After the angel gets through talking to John, John hears the seventh trumpet sound. So he informs the reader the second woe is past - the woe in Revelation 9. And the third is about to be revealed.

The angel telling John about the two witnesses - it would be like if you were in your living room and someone talking to you - telling you about something..

Right as the person finishes, you suddenly hear the door bell ring and go to see who is at the door, the third woe. The previous two woes were the door bell ringing earlier - before the person in your living room starts telling you about something.

What the person is telling you about - is not part of what is going on at the front door, and the woes.

The two witnesses are not part of the second woe. The second woe is a third of mankind being killed, by the massive armies.

 

[iamlamad]

No, I do not say the 42 months happen on a timeline after the second woe takes place. The second woe is the sixth trumpet which happens at the end to the seven years, at the end of the 42 months..

The saints that are being warred against in Revelation 13 are worldwide and them in Israel who haven't fled into the wilderness in time.

Douggg, I have to disagree. The 6th trumpet happens between the 5th and 7th , and the 7th is the midpoint of the week. Please don't rearrange!

The 6th trumpet will come late in the FIRST 42 months.

 

[Riberra]

Your timing on WHEN the two witnesses are caught up is also faulty. They will be caught up at the 7th vial that ends the week.

The two witnesses will be caught up at the end of the 2ND WOE ....just before the 7Th Trumpet.
Revelation 11:7-14

Revelation 11:15 the 7Th trumpet [Third WOE]

In clear the two witnesses will not be there during the 42 months reign of the beast who will begin not long after the 7 th trumpet [the Third Woe]

Have you ever wondered what make the woman to flee in the wilderness JUST FEW MOMENT BEFORE SATAN WILL BE CAST OUT OF HEAVEN ?

Hint: the killing of the two witnesses will reveal who is the Beast Who Cometh Out of The Bottomless Pit who is the AC that the whole Earth shall wonder Revelation 17:8....that Satan will empower [Revelation 13:3-5],when Satan will be cast out of Heaven...

If you want to know whom in Jerusalem -is- [the woman] will flee in the wilderness after the resurrection of the two witnesses :look at that group who gave glory to the God of Heaven.

Revelation 11:13
13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and there were killed in the earthquake seven thousand persons: and the rest were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, I have to disagree. The 6th trumpet happens between the 5th and 7th , and the 7th is the midpoint of the week. Please don't rearrange!

The 6th trumpet will come late in the FIRST 42 months.

Okay, to disagree.
Many people disagree with me. All the time...

The events found in each of the trumpets go on a timeline - not the trumpets themselves.

The events of trumpets 1-6 are linear on the timeline. Trumpet 7 announces events that will go before, during, and after the events of trumpets 1-6.

 

[iamlamad]

The two witnesses will be caught up at the end of the 2ND WOE ....just before the 7Th Trumpet.
Revelation 11:7-14

Revelation 11:15 the 7Th trumpet

In clear the two witnesses will not be there during the 42 months reign of the beast.

Have you ever wondered what make the woman to flee in the wilderness JUST FEW MOMENT BEFORE SATAN WILL BE CAST OUT OF HEAVEN ?

Hint the killing of the two witnesses will reveal who is the Beast Who Cometh Out of The Bottomless Pit who is the AC that the whole Earth shall wonder ....that Satan will empower ,when Satan will be cast out of Heaven...

You are mistaken! They only begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the midpoint! Their testimony is for the LAST half of the week.

What you miss is that 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis with NO BEARING on Chronology. I know it at first appears they are raised before the 7th trumpet, but in reality they are raised just before the 7th vial that ends the week.

I am well aware of where the 7th trumpet is. But the verses before that are a parenthesis. The truth is, they are there BECAUSE the Beast is there. That is when they testify.

Look, John gives us FIVE events that countdown to the end, two in days, two in months and one in years. And they ALL are for the last half of the week. John did not have () to mark out parenthesis. We discover them by study and prayer. The first five verses of chapter 12 are also a parenthesis.

The truth is, the war and the fleeing begin at the same time, for the trigger for both is the 7th trumpet. The woman flees because she sees the abomination. The war is because Satan loses the kingdoms of the world and no longer has any legal hold to earth. So Michael goes after him to cast him down.

 

[iamlamad]

Okay, to disagree.
Many people disagree with me. All the time...

The events found in each of the trumpets go on a timeline - not the trumpets themselves.

The events of trumpets 1-6 are linear on the timeline. Trumpet 7 announces events that will go before, during, and after the events of trumpets 1-6.

Ha ha! You are funny! The truth is, the EVENTS of a trumpet take place when that trumpet is sounded. You cannot separate the events from the trumpet! No wonder many people disagree!

 

[Riberra]

You are mistaken! They only begin their testimony 3 1/2 days before the midpoint! Their testimony is for the LAST half of the week.

The 1,260 days of their testimony are TIMED WITH THE PLAGUES of TRUMPET 1 TROUGH TRUMPET 6 which end with them being killed [Revelation 11:7]by the Beast Who have ascendeth out of the Bottomless Pit [opened at the 5TH Trumpet Revelation 9.]

The proof that the two witnesses will not prophecy during the 42 months reign of the Beast are the 3 flying angels that God will send mentioned in Revelation 14:6-12 at the beginning of the instauration of the 42 months reign of the Beast ,one angel to preach the Gospel , a second ..,and the third to to warn people to NOT TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST in Revelation 14:6-12

Revelation 14:6-12
6 And I saw another angel flying in mid heaven, having the Everlasting Gospel to proclaim unto them that dwell on the earth, and unto every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he saith with a great voice, Fear God, and give him glory; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.

8 And another, a second angel, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that hath made all the nations to drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand, 10 he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name.

12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[iamlamad]

The 1,260 days of their testimony are TIMED WITH THE PLAGUES of TRUMPET 1 TROUGH TRUMPET 6 which end with them being killed [Revelation 11:7]by the Beast Who have ascendeth out of the Bottomless Pit [opened at the 5TH Trumpet Revelation 9.]

The proof that the two witnesses will not prophecy during the 42 months reign of the Beast are the 3 flying angels that God will send mentioned in Revelation 14:6-12 at the beginning of the instauration of the 42 months reign of the Beast ,one angel to preach the Gospel , a second ..,and the third to to warn people to NOT TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST in Revelation 14:6-12

Why is it you have this urge to rearrange John's book? WHERE does John see the two witnesses? It is AFTER the mention of the 42 months of trampling.

Will you rearrange the 42 months to the first half of the week too?

I must ask you, do you understand a parenthesis?

Your proof is no proof at all! So what if angels are preaching the gospel? They can cover far more people that just two witnesses. That is no proof.

Question:
Is the 42 months of trampling fulfilled in verse 2? In other words, is verse 3 now 42 months AFTER verse 2?

In chapter 12, is 12:7, 1260 days AFTER 12:6?

In chapter 12, verse 14, is verse 15, 3 1/2 years AFTER verse 14?

In chapter 13, is verse 6, 42 months AFTER verse 5?