Putin's War? or Russian Orthodox war? or both?

[BobRyan]

Russian politics can be very confusing.

1. Is the War in Ukraine -- really done on behalf of the Russian Orthodox church?


Explainer: How is the Russia-Ukraine war linked to religion?

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

"The Orthodox Primate of Moscow and All Russians offered prayers on Sunday for the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, invoking the concept of a Russian “fatherland” inclusive of Ukraine, while insisting on the ecclesiastical authority of Moscow over Kyiv’s Church leaders."​

2. Or is the RO - a "victim" with a gift from Putin that they dare not say no to?

3. Or is it that Putin and the RO are co-conspirators/partners approving of all this killing of innocent men, women and children in Ukraine?

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

"Kirill’s intervention will likely be interpreted by many Ukrainian Christians and Church-watchers as a tacit endorsement of Putin’s justification for invading Ukraine."

"Putin said the existence of an independent Ukraine is an “anti-Russian project,” propped up by outside Western forces."​

Which is it?

Well both branches of the Orthodox church actually IN Ukraine oppose Putin.
Ukraine: Orthodox United Against Putin

So both the Moscow centered Orthodox church in Ukraine (considered a "denomination" of the Russian Orthodox church) and the Ukraine Orthodox church oppose Putin's war.

But clearly the Russian Orthodox Church does not claim openly to oppose it - do they have a choice? Are they co-conspirators pursuing the same agenda?.

=========== here we see various Orthodox churches condemning the war

But does the RO have a position stated as opposing the war?

========================

Putin and the RO "seem" to be claiming that Ukranians are all Russians -- how is it then that those supposedly "Russian" civilian men women and children are getting bombed-into oblivion by Russia's targeting of civilians? is this the message "woe to those who dare to be called Russian by Putin and/or the RO" ????

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Apparently there is clergy beginning to state the grievances with Patriarch Kirill.
Orthodox Clerics Call For Stop To War In Ukraine In Rare Challenge To Russian Government

this is the translated copy:

APPEAL OF THE CLERGY OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH FOR RECONCILIATION AND AN END TO THE WAR
We, priests and deacons of the Russian Orthodox Church, each on his own behalf, appeal to all on whom the fratricidal war in Ukraine depends for reconciliation and an immediate ceasefire.
We send this appeal after the Sunday of Last Judgment and on the eve of the Sunday of Forgiveness.
The Last Judgment awaits every man. No earthly authority, no doctors, no guards will protect us from this judgment. Concerned for the salvation of each person who considers himself a child of the Russian Orthodox Church, we do not wish him to appear before this judgment, bearing the heavy burden of motherly curses. We recall that the blood of Christ, shed by the Savior for the life of the world, will be received in the sacrament of communion by those who give murderous orders, not to life, but to eternal torment.
We grieve for the ordeal to which our brothers and sisters in Ukraine have been undeservedly subjected.
We recall that each person's life is a priceless and unique gift from God, and therefore we wish all soldiers, both Russian and Ukrainian, to return to their homes and families unharmed.
We bitterly think of the chasm that our children and grandchildren in Russia and Ukraine will have to overcome in order to begin to be friends again, to respect and love one another.
We respect man's divine freedom, and believe that the people of Ukraine should make their choice on their own, not at the point of view of automatic weapons, without pressure from the West or the East.
In anticipation of Forgiveness Sunday, we remind you that the gates of heaven will be opened to everyone, even those who have sinned heavily, if they ask for forgiveness from those whom they have offended, insulted, despised, or killed by their own hands or at their behest. There is no other way than forgiveness and mutual reconciliation.
"The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the earth; and now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand," said God to Cain, who was jealous of his younger brother. Woe to any man who realizes that these words are addressed to him personally.
No nonviolent call for peace and an end to war should be forcibly rejected and considered as a violation of the law, for this is the divine commandment, "Blessed are the peacemakers.
We call upon all warring parties to dialogue, because there is no alternative to violence. Only the ability to listen to the other can give hope for a way out of the abyss into which our countries have been thrown in just a few days.
Let ourselves and all of us enter Lent in a spirit of faith, hope and love.
Stop the war.

from here:ОБРАЩЕНИЕ СВЯЩЕННОСЛУЖИТЕЛЕЙ РУССКОЙ ПРАВОСЛАВНОЙ ЦЕРКВИ С ПРИЗЫВОМ К ПРИМИРЕНИЮ И ПРЕКРАЩЕНИЮ ВОЙНЫ​

 

[timothyu]

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

 

[archer75]

Patriarch Kirill will never go against this.

Ever.

This is not being fought for the ROC. It is being fought to assuage the ego of a man who feels helpless because he never formed an identity of his own.

 

[HTacianas]

Russian politics can be very confusing.

1. Is the War in Ukraine -- really done on behalf of the Russian Orthodox church?


Explainer: How is the Russia-Ukraine war linked to religion?

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

"The Orthodox Primate of Moscow and All Russians offered prayers on Sunday for the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, invoking the concept of a Russian “fatherland” inclusive of Ukraine, while insisting on the ecclesiastical authority of Moscow over Kyiv’s Church leaders."​

2. Or is the RO - a "victim" with a gift from Putin that they dare not say no to?

3. Or is it that Putin and the RO are co-conspirators/partners approving of all this killing of innocent men, women and children in Ukraine?

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

"Kirill’s intervention will likely be interpreted by many Ukrainian Christians and Church-watchers as a tacit endorsement of Putin’s justification for invading Ukraine."

"Putin said the existence of an independent Ukraine is an “anti-Russian project,” propped up by outside Western forces."​

Which is it?

Well both branches of the Orthodox church actually IN Ukraine oppose Putin.
Ukraine: Orthodox United Against Putin

So both the Moscow centered Orthodox church in Ukraine (considered a "denomination" of the Russian Orthodox church) and the Ukraine Orthodox church oppose Putin's war.

But clearly the Russian Orthodox Church does not claim openly to oppose it - do they have a choice? Are they co-conspirators pursuing the same agenda?.

=========== here we see various Orthodox churches condemning the war

But does the RO have a position stated as opposing the war?

The Russian Orthodox Church is in a precarious position right now. There is an unspoken agreement between the Church and the Russian government that goes "you stay out of my business and I'll stay out of yours". That has worked out well for a number of years now. After decades of oppression under the Soviet government, the Russian Church has now thrived under Putin.

Another factor involved is that Patriarch Kiril despises the West. And for good reason. It is the Western world flooding Russia with inappropriate contentography, glorification of sexual immorality, homosexuality and all those other things the West is bombarding the world with.

Now, we have the Russian Church generally at peace with its own government while at the same time its government is engaged in a war against a culture it despises. Where should the Russian Church go from here?

 

[timothyu]

Where should the Russian Church go from here?

Well obviously not back to God.

 

[HTacianas]

Well obviously not back to God.

The Russian Church has been "back to God" since its founding. The Church has never left God and God has never left the Church.

 

[wing2000]

Now, we have the Russian Church generally at peace with its own government while at the same time its government is engaged in a war against a culture it despises. Where should the Russian Church go from here?

If the church claims to be representing Jesus Christ, there is no question on where they should be going.

 

[wing2000]

Russian politics can be very confusing.

1. Is the War in Ukraine -- really done on behalf of the Russian Orthodox church?


Explainer: How is the Russia-Ukraine war linked to religion?

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

"The Orthodox Primate of Moscow and All Russians offered prayers on Sunday for the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, invoking the concept of a Russian “fatherland” inclusive of Ukraine, while insisting on the ecclesiastical authority of Moscow over Kyiv’s Church leaders."​

2. Or is the RO - a "victim" with a gift from Putin that they dare not say no to?

3. Or is it that Putin and the RO are co-conspirators/partners approving of all this killing of innocent men, women and children in Ukraine?

Moscow patriarch prays for unity of ‘single space’ of Russia and Ukraine

"Kirill’s intervention will likely be interpreted by many Ukrainian Christians and Church-watchers as a tacit endorsement of Putin’s justification for invading Ukraine."

"Putin said the existence of an independent Ukraine is an “anti-Russian project,” propped up by outside Western forces."​

Which is it?

Well both branches of the Orthodox church actually IN Ukraine oppose Putin.
Ukraine: Orthodox United Against Putin

So both the Moscow centered Orthodox church in Ukraine (considered a "denomination" of the Russian Orthodox church) and the Ukraine Orthodox church oppose Putin's war.

But clearly the Russian Orthodox Church does not claim openly to oppose it - do they have a choice? Are they co-conspirators pursuing the same agenda?.

=========== here we see various Orthodox churches condemning the war

But does the RO have a position stated as opposing the war?

IMO, Putin is using the Russian Orthodox Church to consolidate his power and control over Russians. And the Church is a willing participant.

 

[HTacianas]

If the church claims to be representing Jesus Christ, there is no question on where they should be going.

Then why don't you state where that is.

 

[timothyu]

IMO, Putin is using the Russian Orthodox Church to consolidate his power and control over Russians. And the Church is a willing participant.

No different than the about face from the Kingdom the church made in Constantine's time.

 

[timothyu]

The Church has never left God and God has never left the Church.

The governance of man is not the governance of God. The two are in conflict.

 

[HTacianas]

The governance of man is not the governance of God. The two are in conflict.

You keep saying things without really saying much at all. To clear this up, if you were the Patriarch of Moscow, how would you go about this?

 

[timothyu]

To clear this up, if you were the Patriarch of Moscow, how would you go about this?

I would leave the self serving ways of man to those of the flesh and return the church to the ways of the Kingdom, thus eliminating divisiveness among man and within the churches over things of a worldly nature. Would the Adversary do that or prefer to keep the way things operate now?

 

[HTacianas]

I would leave the self serving ways of man to those of the flesh and return the church to the ways of the Kingdom, thus eliminating divisiveness among man and within the churches over things of a worldly nature. Would the Adversary do that or prefer to keep the way things operate now?

How about a few concrete steps. I'm certain that you mean everything you've said but we need a few realistic goals.

 

[timothyu]

How about a few concrete steps. I'm certain that you mean everything you've said but we need a few realistic goals.

The only realistic goals were never in the makeup of original Christianity. Realistic goals concerning the ways of mankind are not meant to be part of the faith because mankind's self serving ways are not the ways of God or of the Kingdom. I say that because the thread tries to involve Christianity in man's conflicts. Realistically the religion can take neither side but remain neutral like say the Red Cross. If churches seek to gain because of war they serve the Adversary, not God.

In the meantime the world hopes the Oligarchs pull an Ides of March with little Caesar.