Purveyor of Confusion

[cvanwey]

(1) 100% accuracy. (2) I am not talking about re-copying. Original manuscripts were written over a span of 1500 years by a number of different authors, yet there is enough consistency to call it one book. (3) Prominent writings include that of historian Flavius Josephus (93 AD), Roman senator Tacitus (116 AD), Roman governor Pliny the Younger (112 AD), Roman historian Suetonius (121 AD), Greek author Lucian (165 AD), as well as the Babylonian Talmud (70-500 AD). All writings affirm the existence of a man named Jesus who was thought of as a messiah by many in the Jewish community.

1) All prophecy is 100% accurate you say? Interesting? Care to test this?
2) The people whom wrote the NT, already knew and likely read the OT. In regards to the NT, no, we do not have the originals. And like I stated prior, even if we did, why does an original publication guarantee the said events actually happened?
3) I'm aware of these authors. None of them were alive to witness the said claimed miracles. This is partially why I asked you for dates. They simply wrote about what some earlier deceased people believed. Furthermore, as I've told others, I have no problem reconciling the existence of a man whom was born, lived, preached, made some claims, and was killed. Eye witness attestation to such said miracles, is a whole new ball game, however. This is why I asked, and exactly what these extra-Biblical sources claim?

I do not specialize in apologetics so if you are someone who is interested in professionally written discourses then I would recommend C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, or Ravi Zacharias.

I too am not a professional 'counter-apologist'. I hope you continue to engage in the above, however? You have made some assertions/claims worth exploring.

There are thousands of manuscripts that provide historical proof of the Old/New Testament and millions of people who have been impacted by the Bible. Nobody knows who your great great grandfather is.

My concern is what can be proven. Again, if we start by focusing on the NT, none of them are the originals. Hence, we have copies of copies. The NT has 27 Books. To state we have 1,000's, is a testament to demonstrate these are all copies of copies. Otherwise, you would state we have 27 originals, with external eye witness source attestation and corroboration of many/most/all said/claimed miracles.

And sure, no one knows my great grand parents. But this does not mean I cannot demonstrate the necessity of their existence

And sure, a Book of claims, when believed, will impact accordingly.

I believe in one God with many names, who can reveal Himself in many ways. As a Christian I meet God through the person of Jesus. I cannot speak for other religions but I'm sure they have good reason to believe what they believe.

If these opposing believers, 'have good reason' to believe what they believe, why are they wrong, and you are right?

Neither does God need you to make excuses for Him.

Doesn't seem like you addressed my response here? You merely followed up one blank assertion, with another.

Again, we slap a label on a force called 'gravity'. If trust and hope are important, as you eluded to prior, seems as though if I know what gravity does, my trust and hope for this force will be substantiated -- time and time again.

However, God presents assertions and claims, in the Bible. And yet, the best I can seem to hope for or trust within, is that 'I'll know the truth after I die?'

Couldn't anyone make this claim about any asserted entity?

No worries, it was not rude. I'm aware of what science is. It does little to answer many of life's deepest questions.

To state, 'life's deepest questions', is subjective. Ask a cosmologist, and their 'deepest question(s)' may or may not have already been answered to their satisfaction.

People believe God because they would rather not live their whole lives settling for the fact that they are just atoms and there is no meaning to it at all.

Are you admitting that 'people' invoke the 'necessity' for a God to give their lives meaning, with or without any rational justification to do so?

The existence, or lack of existence for a God, does not mean that humans cannot still induce 'meaning' to things, items, other animals, insects, or humans. Maybe you can look at it the other way around? Maybe the fact that life is short, maybe it is more 'meaningful' to 'treasure' what we have, in the moment, since it is temporary?

Case/point, would you call your 'home' 'just a bunch of lumbar, nails, and concrete? We apply meaning to things, whether it be our pets (which, to my understanding, do not ascend to heaven), keepsakes, etc...

But to get to the heart of your response, do 'feelings' reliably demonstrate truth?

Indeed that is what the Pagans believed. You were a Christian for many years so I am sure you know where God stands on child sacrifice.

I think you might have missed my point here

If all are saved by grace, then anything/everything which happens before-hand, really would not matter.

Eternity is forever - sorry for the tautology, but it's necessary to explain here....

God institutes grace for all humans. This means, eventually, and ultimately, we all end up in the same place. Hence, it really does not matter what you do prior to this 'time.' In the end, we all end up in God's intended arena anyhow. And under such a scenario, does your current life really have any real value? I would think not...

And further, the only 'meaning' one might conclude, is that once you are born, or even conceived, your fate/path is already ultimately sealed. Whether it be immediately, or 20 billion years from now, you end up in God's heaven all-the-same.

Thus, again under your assertion, WHY CARE OR FOLLOW ANYTHING about what the Bible asserts about morality, worship, works, etc? The Bible states to keep the Commandments. The question is, why would I NEED to? The Bible states to believe. Again, WHY would I need to? The Bible states to treat others the way you want to be treated. Again, WHY do I need to?

'Grace' negates the necessity for all of this......

We do not have to wait until heaven to be made anew (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Doesn't matter... Under the assertion of grace, we all ultimately get there anyways. And furthermore, as the Bible also states, in the end, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess.

And like I also stated prior, once you transcend into heaven, you are no longer you. You no longer presumably possess the desire for 'sin'. Hence, just send everyone there now anyways.

A. You are the one that asked me to pray for you, sir. B.

Yes. An intercessory prayer request to demonstrate God's existence was requested. One for which you either have not done, or God will not abide.

Feel free to do as little as you'd like. But like I said you do not have to wait until heaven to partake in the Kingdom of God (Luke 17:21). The party is already happening but no one will force you to have fun.

Well, I tried this method for decades, and I experienced no such party. If grace is true, then please see above, as I have addressed all of this

Sir you do not need anyone's permission to run amuck. The question is not if you can but rather why you would want to. The only person you are hurting in that situation is yourself.

I feel you are still missing my point. If grace exists, it does not matter. What we do beforehand, really does not matter --- other than possibly acting as a delay to the ultimate final eternal destination. In the end, you and I both end up in the same place. Which, again, begs the question, why keep the Commandments, adhere to the golden rule, help others, give to the poor, etc?

Heaven or hell/good or evil/self-love or self-destruction are not just eschatological options. People are presented with these choices every day and you would be surprised how often we choose the wrong option. You demonstrated this beautifully when even in the face of unconditional love, your first thought was to "run amuck".

Nothing in this response addressed what I stated. Criminal law, taxation, and Christianity are ALL compulsory.

- If I break a law, and are caught, I get punished
- If I do not pay my taxes, and are caught, I get punished
- If I do not abide by God's law, I get punished

You do not have free will to opt out of punishment. And no one, in their right mind, would actively choose punishment. And even if they do, would likely not choose to remain in punishment for eternity.

These (3) systems present an A or B option. A, abide by the rule, or B, receive punishment.

Free will might be more apt to going to an ice cream parlor, and being able to choose to stay and eat the ice cream there, take it to go, decide to instead get a milk shake, change your mind when you get there and leave, order a sandwich if they serve them, etc ---- All-the-while, none of these choices would result in punishment. You have free reign to go there, not go there, go somewhere else, decide to leave prematurely while you are there, etc; and NOT be subject to an implied consequence, against your will, if you do not adhere the way authority dictates.

So, in Christianity, if all are NOT actually saved by grace, and it should turn out that God judges all by faith and/or works, it would appear Christianity is somewhat coercive in nature, like taxes

(1) Sir it looks like you are the one that has decided to put yourself through such a process; "Hence, if I decide to run amuck for now, my destination goal might merely first take a few detours before getting there " (2) Please refer to the definition of free will; "the ability to act at one's own discretion." (3) You will just have to find out when you get there.

<answer key>

1) If grace is true, then nothing precluding it really matters, so what's the point? There really isn't one.
2) Free will has no relevance in God's landscape. He says it Himself, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. God is watching, as all preemptive actions happen exactly the way He already knew they would.
3) We all end up in the same place anyways, free from sin apparently. Without having any desire to sin. Otherwise, I doubt it would be called heaven. God should just place every human there, whom He knows will ever exist, and simply cut to the chase. Everything prior is superfluous.

Adam and Eve along with all of humanity have demonstrated repeatedly how we have the free will to not oblige by God's rules.

'Abide by my rules', or be punished, is not the classic definition of free will.

But fortunately, under your assertion, none of this matters

2/3 of these are not questions.

Sorry! Let me edit/reduce accordingly:

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?
-Can you will yourself to believe the moon is made of cheese? If not, please demonstrate how belief is a choice?

 

[dcalling]

Essentially, in a round-about way, you are asserting the 1st Commandment is the most important. Okay. Seems as though you are attempting to establish a hierarchy or ranking system...

Does this mean the 4th Commandment is more important than the 6th Commandment?

Different people got different options, so don't know about other laws, but Jesus said Love God with all is the most important of the laws, not me.

Then why list it as a law for Christians to follow at all? It might as well tell Christians, 'don't grow wings without my permission.'

That is not a law to follow.
Examples of laws to be followed: Honor your parents, don't murder.
The blasphemy against Holy spirit section is just knowledge that is fun to know, example God created man and woman or blasphemy against Holy spirit won't be forgiven.

 

[cvanwey]

Different people got different options, so don't know about other laws, but Jesus said Love God with all is the most important of the laws, not me.

Sure they do. Just like [your] opinion that a true Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit I'll repeat my question now.

Does this mean the 4th Commandment is more important than the 6th Commandment?

And remember, I'm not asking you for your opinion. I'm essentially asking what is God's opinion? You seem to know what His highest ranking law seems to be... Thus, it would seem perfectly reasonable to ask the question above. He provides an entire Book of assertions. If you are ill equipped to answer this basic question, just think what might happen if I were to ask you something remotely involved?

That is not a law to follow.

According to God, yes it is: "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name"

Examples of laws to be followed: Honor your parents, don't murder.

You, again, are incorrect. It is a law: Exodus 20:7: “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”

The blasphemy against Holy spirit section is just knowledge that is fun to know, example God created man and woman or blasphemy against Holy spirit won't be forgiven.

I would agree that a 'creation story' may be purely 'informational'. But a 'thou shall not' command is different. God tells readers not to 'take His name in vain', not to 'blaspheme', not to 'speak against'. God tells His readers they will not be forgiven. God leaves questions unanswered, while issuing a grave threat. One for which many fear they have committed, or fear maybe one of their loved ones have committed. I doubt this is a 'fun to know' piece of information for many readers.

 

[dcalling]

Sure they do. Just like [your] opinion that a true Christian cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit I'll repeat my question now.

Does this mean the 4th Commandment is more important than the 6th Commandment?

And remember, I'm not asking you for your opinion. I'm essentially asking what is God's opinion? You seem to know what His highest ranking law seems to be... Thus, it would seem perfectly reasonable to ask the question above. He provides an entire Book of assertions. If you are ill equipped to answer this basic question, just think what might happen if I were to ask you something remotely involved?

I know His highest ranking law because Jesus said it in Matthew 22:37. The Bible didn't say about the rest.

According to God, yes it is: "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name"

Yes that is a law. But Jesus also stated blaspheme God and blaspheme holy spirit is different, as I stated again and again.

You, again, are incorrect. It is a law: Exodus 20:7: “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”



I would agree that a 'creation story' may be purely 'informational'. But a 'thou salt not' command is different. God tells readers not to 'take His name in vain', not to 'blaspheme', not to 'speak against'. God tells His readers they will not be forgiven. God leaves questions unanswered, while issuing a grave threat. One for which many fear they have committed, or fear maybe one of their loved ones have committed. I doubt this is a 'fun to know' piece of information for many readers.

see above.

 

[cvanwey]

Yes that is a law. But Jesus also stated blaspheme God and blaspheme holy spirit is different, as I stated again and again.

Yes, they ARE different. One is forgivable, and one is not.

 

[cvanwey]

I know His highest ranking law because Jesus said it in Matthew 22:37. The Bible didn't say about the rest.

Yes He does: "39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

see above.

'Above' does not address my inquiry. God issues a threat, and does nothing to clarify. Blasphemy is not clarified. You admitted it yourself; much of it is all subject to 'opinion.' And God seems not to want to clarify this threat. And yet, seems to clarify 'less important' rules and instruction(s). This leaves many in fear of permanent punishment, regardless of anything else done there-after.

 

[dcalling]

Yes He does: "39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

Agreed.

'Above' does not address my inquiry. God issues a threat, and does nothing to clarify. Blasphemy is not clarified. You admitted it yourself; much of it is all subject to 'opinion.' And God seems not to want to clarify this threat. And yet, seems to clarify 'less important' rules and instruction(s). This leaves many in fear of permanent punishment, regardless of anything else done there-after.

How many? Are you concerned? I am not

 

[cvanwey]

How many? Are you concerned? I am not

And neither is God. And yet, some assert that many have committed this eternal sin, for which there is no forgiveness. Some yearn for loved ones, which they feel are never forgiven. And God cares not to elaborate. All-the-while, offers elaboration with less 'important' instruction. Odd....

 

[Kylie]

No it isn´t a logical conclusion that parts were added over years because when one is born of THE SPIRIT and can understand the hidden TRUTHS of GOD, one is amazed at how all those signs , spoken through the prophets, (who could not fully understand all that they were saying), were speaking of and pointing to all the hidden truths and realities found in CHRIST...

The BIBLE is a well fitted puzzle...it is a TESTIMONY and WITNESS of JESUS...

No, it's a collection of stories of often indetermined authorship, none of which can be confirmed as eyewitness accounts and were written many years after the events they describe and were often added to, altered or loosely translated to form the English versions we have today.

 

[agapelove]

1) All prophecy is 100% accurate you say? Interesting? Care to test this?
2) The people whom wrote the NT, already knew and likely read the OT. In regards to the NT, no, we do not have the originals. And like I stated prior, even if we did, why does an original publication guarantee the said events actually happened?
3) I'm aware of these authors. None of them were alive to witness the said claimed miracles. This is partially why I asked you for dates. They simply wrote about what some earlier deceased people believed. Furthermore, as I've told others, I have no problem reconciling the existence of a man whom was born, lived, preached, made some claims, and was killed. Eye witness attestation to such said miracles, is a whole new ball game, however. This is why I asked, and exactly what these extra-Biblical sources claim?

(1) Glad to. (2) OT texts like the Psalms and the Proverbs were written by a handful of different authors over a span of generations. There are also books of prophecies and historical accounts like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Kings, etc all written at a time when the only canon available was the Torah. The official Old Testament canon we know today from the Septuagint was not fixed until about 50CE. (3) The Gospels are eye-witness attestations to such said miracles but for some reason they are unacceptable forms of evidence to you. You shouldn't forget that most of the people who witnessed Jesus' ministry were bottom of the barrel people (fishermen, tax collectors, prostitutes-- they could neither read nor write). Some extra-biblical quotes include:

"Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome..
Tacitus, Annals

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
Pliny the Young, Epistulae X.96

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews
​

This quote is controversial because the original writings were extremely fragmented, but many believe this early Greek historian, Thallus, was describing either literally or figuratively what happened on the day Christ was crucified.

On the whole world there pressed a fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.
Thallus, History​

These are just some that I quickly found. If you are interested in reading more I believe all the sources are available on the internet.

My concern is what can be proven. Again, if we start by focusing on the NT, none of them are the originals. Hence, we have copies of copies. The NT has 27 Books. To state we have 1,000's, is a testament to demonstrate these are all copies of copies. Otherwise, you would state we have 27 originals, with external eye witness source attestation and corroboration of many/most/all said/claimed miracles.

Not so. The NT was compiled from 6,000 different fragments of Greek manuscripts to make up the 27 books.

If these opposing believers, 'have good reason' to believe what they believe, why are they wrong, and you are right?

Where did I say they were wrong and I am right?

Again, we slap a label on a force called 'gravity'. If trust and hope are important, as you eluded to prior, seems as though if I know what gravity does, my trust and hope for this force will be substantiated -- time and time again.

However, God presents assertions and claims, in the Bible. And yet, the best I can seem to hope for or trust within, is that 'I'll know the truth after I die?'

Couldn't anyone make this claim about any asserted entity?

I'm afraid your obsession with the afterlife might be what's preventing you from seeing how God is presently working.

Are you admitting that 'people' invoke the 'necessity' for a God to give their lives meaning, with or without any rational justification to do so?

The existence, or lack of existence for a God, does not mean that humans cannot still induce 'meaning' to things, items, other animals, insects, or humans. Maybe you can look at it the other way around? Maybe the fact that life is short, maybe it is more 'meaningful' to 'treasure' what we have, in the moment, since it is temporary?

Case/point, would you call your 'home' 'just a bunch of lumbar, nails, and concrete? We apply meaning to things, whether it be our pets (which, to my understanding, do not ascend to heaven), keepsakes, etc...

But to get to the heart of your response, do 'feelings' reliably demonstrate truth?

It is HUMAN INSTINCT to assign meaning to things therefore religion is a survival mechanism. Anthropology has proven that the concept of "God" has advanced humanity in ways where government and technology and science cannot. Some people cannot find meaning in accepting that this life is all there is, are they wrong? Is there objective meaning to life? Do you know what is beyond this life?

I think you might have missed my point here

If all are saved by grace, then anything/everything which happens before-hand, really would not matter.

Eternity is forever - sorry for the tautology, but it's necessary to explain here....

God institutes grace for all humans. This means, eventually, and ultimately, we all end up in the same place. Hence, it really does not matter what you do prior to this 'time.' In the end, we all end up in God's intended arena anyhow. And under such a scenario, does your current life really have any real value? I would think not...

And further, the only 'meaning' one might conclude, is that once you are born, or even conceived, your fate/path is already ultimately sealed. Whether it be immediately, or 20 billion years from now, you end up in God's heaven all-the-same.

Thus, again under your assertion, WHY CARE OR FOLLOW ANYTHING about what the Bible asserts about morality, worship, works, etc? The Bible states to keep the Commandments. The question is, why would I NEED to? The Bible states to believe. Again, WHY would I need to? The Bible states to treat others the way you want to be treated. Again, WHY do I need to?

'Grace' negates the necessity for all of this......

I think you might have missed MY point. Saved by grace is not salvation from some future punishment that God will put you through. It is salvation from the state that human beings put themselves in, ie. "RUNNING AMUCK". When we sin we make ourselves vulnerable to self destruction, then we externalize that destruction and the world falls apart in a vicious cycle. Jesus calls us to love one another because He's redeemed us, reminding us that that's not who we are and that's not what we were made for. If you cannot see a point in commandments like "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal" then I'm afraid you are the one perpetuating hell for yourself and others around you.

But it "doesn't matter" right? Because we have the promise that one day all will be well. That day will not come until all people willingly face their own sin and repent. I can try to illustrate it like this: if you knew that you wouldn't die, but could still feel pain and sustain injuries, would you willingly throw yourself off a cliff? Obviously NO! So why ask what is the point of following anything in the Bible? The commandments are there to protect you!

I feel you are still missing my point. If grace exists, it does not matter. What we do beforehand, really does not matter --- other than possibly acting as a delay to the ultimate final eternal destination. In the end, you and I both end up in the same place. Which, again, begs the question, why keep the Commandments, adhere to the golden rule, help others, give to the poor, etc?

You do NOT have to! Don't do any of it if giving to the poor and helping others APPALLS you so much! Jesus explains that this is how we can help expand the Kingdom of God and begin experiencing it HERE and NOW in the Spirit. Try taking the advice if you wish to "experience God" so badly. Or not. Continue in a life of a sin if you wish because you are right, we will both end up in the same place... THE GRAVE. Do you wish to come to the end of your life and realize you did absolutely NOTHING worthy? When Heaven comes one of us will feel wholeness and joy, while the other will feel shame and regret. (No offense intended I am just answering your questions.)

Nothing in this response addressed what I stated. Criminal law, taxation, and Christianity are ALL compulsory.

- If I break a law, and are caught, I get punished
- If I do not pay my taxes, and are caught, I get punished
- If I do not abide by God's law, I get punished

You do not have free will to opt out of punishment. And no one, in their right mind, would actively choose punishment. And even if they do, would likely not choose to remain in punishment for eternity.

These (3) systems present an A or B option. A, abide by the rule, or B, receive punishment.

Free will might be more apt to going to an ice cream parlor, and being able to choose to stay and eat the ice cream there, take it to go, decide to instead get a milk shake, change your mind when you get there and leave, order a sandwich if they serve them, etc ---- All-the-while, none of these choices would result in punishment. You have free reign to go there, not go there, go somewhere else, decide to leave prematurely while you are there, etc; and NOT be subject to an implied consequence, against your will, if you do not adhere the way authority dictates.

Not a comparison. The difference is if you break a law, you are punished by the state. If you do not pay your taxes, you are punished by the IRS. If you do not abide by God's law you are punishing yourself. When will you understand that God is not the angry tax man, keeping track of your dues.

Knowing you will be hungover tomorrow do you have the free will to drink or not to drink? You have free will to decide which punishments are worth the reward and which are not.

So, in Christianity, if all are NOT actually saved by grace, and it should turn out that God judges all by faith and/or works, it would appear Christianity is somewhat coercive in nature, like taxes

Well I do not believe God is coercive in nature, take this concern up with people who do.

1) If grace is true, then nothing precluding it really matters, so what's the point? There really isn't one.
2) Free will has no relevance in God's landscape. He says it Himself, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. God is watching, as all preemptive actions happen exactly the way He already knew they would.
3) We all end up in the same place anyways, free from sin apparently. Without having any desire to sin. Otherwise, I doubt it would be called heaven. God should just place every human there, whom He knows will ever exist, and simply cut to the chase. Everything prior is superfluous.

(1) That's quite a depressing view friend I hope you can find some meaning in anything I've shared in this post. (2) Foreknowledge is not the absence of free will. (3) We do not go to Heaven, Heaven comes down to us. The Bible tells us Jesus must reign until all are under His feet and then He will establish Heaven on Earth. We're not waiting on God, God is waiting on us, and He has all of eternity.

Sorry! Let me edit/reduce accordingly:

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?
-Can you will yourself to believe the moon is made of cheese? If not, please demonstrate how belief is a choice?

Not sure what further specific evidence you are looking for....? Please specify. Again I have modified my statement for you-- You can make choices that affect your belief. If I really wanted to believe the moon was made of cheese I could choose to go through shock therapy, or hypnosis.

 

[dcalling]

And neither is God. And yet, some assert that many have committed this eternal sin, for which there is no forgiveness. Some yearn for loved ones, which they feel are never forgiven. And God cares not to elaborate. All-the-while, offers elaboration with less 'important' instruction. Odd....

People do have their own ways of interpret God, for example the Amish don't use modern tools, or most Christians eat pork. The important thing is, we know we need God to save us and we have faith that if one truly love God above all, he will be saved.

 

[cvanwey]

(1) Glad to.

Okay. I'm afraid this may require an entirely new topic though... Remains to be seen...? Give me your best Bible prophecy, for starters?

(2) OT texts like the Psalms and the Proverbs were written by a handful of different authors over a span of generations. There are also books of prophecies and historical accounts like Jeremiah, Isaiah, Kings, etc all written at a time when the only canon available was the Torah. The official Old Testament canon we know today from the Septuagint was not fixed until about 50CE.

This does not address the meat of my concern. (slightly paraphrased) "Like I stated prior, even if we did have the originals, why does an original publication guarantee the said events actually happened?"

(3) The Gospels are eye-witness attestations to such said miracles but for some reason they are unacceptable forms of evidence to you. You shouldn't forget that most of the people who witnessed Jesus' ministry were bottom of the barrel people (fishermen, tax collectors, prostitutes-- they could neither read nor write). Some extra-biblical quotes include:

You are making a claim for which I doubt you can substantiate. We really do not know who wrote the original Gospels?.?....?. We simply do not have them. And even if we did, I doubt they would have autographed their works. All we know is that we have copies of copies. The absolute earliest dating back to 'Papyrus P52'. And this fragment was well into the second century.

And yes, I'm aware that most of the 'claimed' eye witnesses were mere peasants - of no formal education. Which begs a basic question...

If God's intent was to present His power to eye witnesses, wouldn't it be more prudent and/or convincing to present His miracles to the literate population? You know, the ones with abilities to write them down...

All we have is later historians writing of what a sect of earlier and present people, of the day, believed. They wrote this from years/decades/centuries of oral tradition(s).

"Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome..
Tacitus, Annals

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.
Pliny the Young, Epistulae X.96

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews
​

This quote is controversial because the original writings were extremely fragmented, but many believe this early Greek historian, Thallus, was describing either literally or figuratively what happened on the day Christ was crucified.

On the whole world there pressed a fearful darkness, and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.
Thallus, History​

These are just some that I quickly found. If you are interested in reading more I believe all the sources are available on the internet.

Yes, I'm aware of these authors. None of them were alive during Jesus' time. Hence, they cannot be 'eye witnesses' to miracles, now can they? Again, all they are reporting, is what some earlier people believed. And further, just for starters, there's probable argumentation that the 'golden paragraph', from Josephus, may have been a forgery anyways - (not that it really matters however). It's literary style does not match the rest of his publication.

Not so. The NT was compiled from 6,000 different fragments of Greek manuscripts to make up the 27 books.

None of these are originals. Unless, you consider 100-200 year(+) fragments, from the time of the claimed events, the 'originals'???? And furthermore, if God's intent was to perform miracles, for people to write about, seems quite odd that He made absolutely no efforts to assure the 'originals' are preserved?

And like I stated prior, there looks to exist no external 'eye witness' and/or 'corroborated' reports of said miracles....

Where did I say they were wrong and I am right?

So you admit someone like say... a Hindu... has just as much evidence and justification for their beliefs, as you have for yours? But you instead maybe just flipped a coin to decide which one you actually believe, since the claims are in opposition to one another?

I'm afraid your obsession with the afterlife might be what's preventing you from seeing how God is presently working.

The title of [this] thread involves 'salvation'. And again, if God's contact is THIS subtle, sounds like a pretty impotent God?`And like I stated prior, seems as though the 'go-to' answer often becomes... "God works in mysterious ways,' and 'we will find out after we die.' For which I again repeat... couldn't any believer make these generic and blanket claim(s) for ANY God(s)?

It is HUMAN INSTINCT to assign meaning to things therefore religion is a survival mechanism. Anthropology has proven that the concept of "God" has advanced humanity in ways where government and technology and science cannot. Some people cannot find meaning in accepting that this life is all there is, are they wrong? Is there objective meaning to life? Do you know what is beyond this life?

- I agree with the statement in bold red.
- 'Objective meaning' is likely whatever each of us impose.
- I have absolutely no clue what happens after death. But if I was to bet on it, I'd say nothing...?

I think you might have missed MY point. Saved by grace is not salvation from some future punishment that God will put you through. It is salvation from the state that human beings put themselves in, ie. "RUNNING AMUCK". When we sin we make ourselves vulnerable to self destruction, then we externalize that destruction and the world falls apart in a vicious cycle. Jesus calls us to love one another because He's redeemed us, reminding us that that's not who we are and that's not what we were made for. If you cannot see a point in commandments like "Thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal" then I'm afraid you are the one perpetuating hell for yourself and others around you.

But it "doesn't matter" right? Because we have the promise that one day all will be well. That day will not come until all people willingly face their own sin and repent. I can try to illustrate it like this: if you knew that you wouldn't die, but could still feel pain and sustain injuries, would you willingly throw yourself off a cliff? Obviously NO! So why ask what is the point of following anything in the Bible? The commandments are there to protect you!

MY POINT is that some day, all will experience eternal bliss/no more sin/no ability or want for sin. Prior to transition into the heavenly realm, ALL will 'sin', according to God, regardless of whether it be deliberate, accidental, or maybe even to commit a 'lesser' sin to save against a 'greater sin.'

THUS, if no human has the ability to sin in heaven, because you are no longer you, just immediately send everyone there now. All will sin, regardless of how hard one tries not to, Christian or no Christian.

Hence, what is the point of prior trial and tribulation????

You do NOT have to! Don't do any of it if giving to the poor and helping others APPALLS you so much! Jesus explains that this is how we can help expand the Kingdom of God and begin experiencing it HERE and NOW in the Spirit. Try taking the advice if you wish to "experience God" so badly. Or not. Continue in a life of a sin if you wish because you are right, we will both end up in the same place... THE GRAVE. Do you wish to come to the end of your life and realize you did absolutely NOTHING worthy? When Heaven comes one of us will feel wholeness and joy, while the other will feel shame and regret. (No offense intended I am just answering your questions.)

You missed what I've stated two or three times now. The Bible states:

"10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

God is essentially saying, that some day, I will bow to Him, as He truly likes. So again, what's the point of any trial and tribulation? If my knee is someday bowing, and my tongue is someday confessing to Him, as my savior is inevitably and ultimately going to come, then everything prior becomes an unnecessary act in futility.

Not a comparison. The difference is if you break a law, you are punished by the state. If you do not pay your taxes, you are punished by the IRS. If you do not abide by God's law you are punishing yourself. When will you understand that God is not the angry tax man, keeping track of your dues.

Knowing you will be hungover tomorrow do you have the free will to drink or not to drink? You have free will to decide which punishments are worth the reward and which are not.

If I work on the Sabbath, I'm punishing myself? I'm 'punishing' myself no more or less than any other day of the week. God set up this rule, not me. If I break God's law, God will punish me.

God is the rule maker, and the rule enforcer. You break His rule, He punishes you. He laid forth the ground rules. If I do not agree, too bad. There exists no escape. I cannot choose to live in another state or country, to avoid a law I do not like.

And to answer your comparison, in this sense, you kind of don't have free will Sure, you can choose whether or not you want to drink, and presumably, no one is going to force you to drink one way or another. However, you cannot 'choose' not to have a headache the next day, if you do drink. Hence, one could argue that you may sometimes willingly choose to drink, knowing you are going to suffer the next day. but maybe you knew the fun of that night outweighs the suffrage of the next day, which is temporary. But in Christianity, seems as though, if others are right, and YOU are wrong, your incorrect choices could land you an eternity of suffrage.?.?.?

Well I do not believe God is coercive in nature, take this concern up with people who do.

Oh, you mean God? He is the one whom delivers the threat, or innuendo.

"18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

"15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe"

(1) That's quite a depressing view friend I hope you can find some meaning in anything I've shared in this post. (2) Foreknowledge is not the absence of free will. (3) We do not go to Heaven, Heaven comes down to us. The Bible tells us Jesus must reign until all are under His feet and then He will establish Heaven on Earth. We're not waiting on God, God is waiting on us, and He has all of eternity.

1) As stated prior, we all find our own 'meaning'. But if we are all already ultimately saved, and all end up in eternal bliss and free from sin, than everything prior is arbitrary.
2) You've missed my point here. According to God, we all ultimately choose God, and He already knows this. In this model, free will is irrelevant.
3) This does not change anything about what I stated prior. Everything prior is superfluous.

Not sure what further specific evidence you are looking for....? Please specify. Again I have modified my statement for you-- You can make choices that affect your belief. If I really wanted to believe the moon was made of cheese I could choose to go through shock therapy, or hypnosis.

- I guess you seem to think prophecy and eye witness attestation are strong pieces? We can start there.
- And as I told you prior, without some catalyst, you cannot will a belief change. You have demonstrated my point profoundly. --- 'Shock therapy' and 'hypnosis' would qualify as a catalyst You cannot simply will a change, however.

 

[cvanwey]

People do have their own ways of interpret God, for example the Amish don't use modern tools, or most Christians eat pork. The important thing is, we know we need God to save us and we have faith that if one truly love God above all, he will be saved.

And like I've told you, many times now... Maybe one of His measures of true faith, is to place Luke 14:33 into practice? Again, why does this assertion not apply to you? Maybe your faith is seen as weak? Maybe you are not a true Christian? Maybe talk is cheap?

Let's use your own 'blasphemy' analogy against you

"A true Christian would never own hardly any possessions. A true Christian would give it all up to follow Him." Maybe the Amish are MORE faithful than you?

 

[dcalling]

And like I've told you, many times now... Maybe one of His measures of true faith, is to place Luke 14:33 into practice? Again, why does this assertion not apply to you? Maybe your faith is seen as weak? Maybe you are not a true Christian? Maybe talk is cheap?

Let's use your own 'blasphemy' analogy against you

"A true Christian would never own hardly any possessions. A true Christian would give it all up to follow Him." Maybe the Amish are MORE faithful than you?

OK so you finally changed your topic.
And as I told you many times now, who should I renounce my belongings to? Definitely not you (You seems to have a very short memory, as this topic has been answered multiple times. I will save this post position so if it every come up again I will redirect you back here)

In the Bible there are many people who has wealth, some has a lot, and God still loves them, because they value God above all their wealth. If God told me to give any of my wealth to anyone, I will do it.

Yes maybe the amish is more faithful than me, does not matter as I know there are many more people more faithful than me. For now I am content to do my 10% to God as required

 

[cvanwey]

OK so you finally changed your topic.

No I did not. You back-peddled out of it.... I'm simply following you. If you don't believe me, please re-look at the thread entire.

And as I told you many times now, who should I renounce my belongings to? Definitely not you (You seems to have a very short memory, as this topic has been answered multiple times. I will save this post position so if it every come up again I will redirect you back here)

And as I told you, long ago, you can burn them for all I care. The POINT is that if you have possessions, God does not consider you a follower. Please keep this response handy

In the Bible there are many people who has wealth, some has a lot, and God still loves them, because they value God above all their wealth. If God told me to give any of my wealth to anyone, I will do it.

He did tell you. Luke 14:33 How do you know this verse is not about you????

Yes maybe the amish is more faithful than me, does not matter as I know there are many more people more faithful than me. For now I am content to do my 10% to God as required

The question remains, is God content with [your] level of faith??? If we are to base it upon Luke 14:33, then probably not

 

[dcalling]

No I did not. You back-peddled out of it.... I'm simply following you. If you don't believe me, please re-look at the thread entire.

don't have time, post it if you want to.

And as I told you, long ago, you can burn them for all I care. The POINT is that if you have possessions, God does not consider you a follower. Please keep this response handy

I answered you multiple times. see below

He did tell you. Luke 14:33 How do you know this verse is not about you????

Well, in the literal sense is only for Jesus' 12 disciples, when Jesus is still alive, that they give up all and followed him. After Jesus is gone, you can't follow him in person any more, all you need to do is make sure you don't value all your belongings above God. as I said multiple times.

The question remains, is God content with [your] level of faith??? If we are to base it upon Luke 14:33, then probably not

See above. But again, since we are all sinners, our level of faith will never be good enough, and we are saved through Grace by faith

 

[cvanwey]

don't have time, post it if you want to.

I find this response, less-than-accurate. You refuse, even when I give you the post numbers. And furthermore, you have no problem responding shortly after I reply.

Well, in the literal sense is only for Jesus' 12 disciples, when Jesus is still alive, that they give up all and followed him. After Jesus is gone, you can't follow him in person any more, all you need to do is make sure you don't value all your belongings above God. as I said multiple times.

As answered, long ago... The Bible does not list the context, for the 'here and now', via Luke 14:25-33. This passage, as well as many others, are for the readers to read. That's it. Just like all other passages, for which in some of them, you decide to take as literal, for [you] still today.

See above. But again, since we are all sinners, our level of faith will never be good enough, and we are saved through Grace by faith

If no one's faith is good enough, and grace saves all, then maybe you can begin to join in on my conversation with 'agapelove'. Oh, wait a minute, I could even give you the post numbers, but that still won't suffice

 

[dcalling]

I find this response, less-than-accurate. You refuse, even when I give you the post numbers. And furthermore, you have no problem responding shortly after I reply.

You reply pretty fast too but does not want to post your content.

As answered, long ago... The Bible does not list the context, for the 'here and now', via Luke 14:25-33. This passage, as well as many others, are for the readers to read. That's it. Just like all other passages, for which in some of them, you decide to take as literal, for [you] still today.

All you need to do is make sure you don't value all your belongings above God. as I said multiple times.
When Jesus is not here, does given my property to you increase the domain of God on this earth? All my property belongs to God.

If no one's faith is good enough, and grace saves all, then maybe you can begin to join in on my conversation with 'agapelove'. Oh, wait a minute, I could even give you the post numbers, but that still won't suffice

I said saved through grace by faith. I didn't say grace saves all.

 

[cvanwey]

You reply pretty fast too but does not want to post your content.

I gave you the post number on a silver platter. I also do not state I don't have time, but then continue to respond.

All you need to do is make sure you don't value all your belongings above God. as I said multiple times.
When Jesus is not here, does given my property to you increase the domain of God on this earth? All my property belongs to God.

The verse states to 'give up everything' or you cannot be a follower. The verse does not state to give everything to the poor, or to someone else. The verse does not speak about a metaphorical sense, in that you need to retain possessions, as long as you make sure not to value them above Jesus. In this context, the Chapter is speaking about the cost of being a follower. Furthermore, the verse does not speak about a very specific time, in a very specific place. The verse is there for all readers to read. See below...

I said saved through grace by faith. I didn't say grace saves all.

Great, then again, how do you know Luke 14:25-33 does not apply to you?

Again, talk is very cheap. Actions speak louder than words. Maybe the fact that you retain possessions, means your faith is weak for Jesus? Maybe He does not deem you a true follower? Maybe the Amish are on to something?

 

[dcalling]

I gave you the post number on a silver platter. I also do not state I don't have time, but then continue to respond.

unless you give me an easy way to lookup via a click I don't have time to page through and find that post.

The verse states to 'give up everything' or you cannot be a follower. The verse does not state to give everything to the poor, or to someone else. The verse does not speak about a metaphorical sense, in that you need to retain possessions, as long as you make sure not to value them above Jesus. In this context, the Chapter is speaking about the cost of being a follower. Furthermore, the verse does not speak about a very specific time, in a very specific place. The verse is there for all readers to read. See below...

Exactly, so all is given up to God. You do know the 12 disciples all wear clothes do you?

Great, then again, how do you know Luke 14:25-33 does not apply to you?

Again, talk is very cheap. Actions speak louder than words. Maybe the fact that you retain possessions, means your faith is weak for Jesus? Maybe He does not deem you a true follower? Maybe the Amish are on to something?

See above. I am pretty sure Amish also have properties, they just don't use modern tools.
It almost seems you are desperate to sew confusion