Purveyor of Confusion

[Kylie]

It would not be an issue if you had decided to read the rest of my post.

The Bible says otherwise.

 

[Kylie]

Where does it say that Moses saw God face to face and it meant that and only that ... ?

Exodus 33:11.

It also states very clearly that they spoke like friends. I generally speak to my friends face to face. Don't you? I can't remember the last time I spoke to my friends face to face via proxy. Not even sure how that would be possible.

 

[agapelove]

The Bible says otherwise.

Feel free to keep beating the dead horse.

 

[Kylie]

Feel free to keep beating the dead horse.

Do you also say that to all the Biblical literalists out there?

And I know you're going to continue coming up with excuses for why the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

 

[agapelove]

Do you also say that to all the Biblical literalists out there?

And I know you're going to continue coming up with excuses for why the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

If you assume everything I say is going to be an excuse then why are you here continuing this conversation?

 

[Kylie]

If you assume everything I say is going to be an excuse then why are you here continuing this conversation?

Why do you think I am here for you? I'm also here to point out the ridiculousness of how you have to go through some quite amazing stretches of logic to make sure the Bible remains consistent. Isn't it far more rational to conclude that the texts have had parts added over the years and thus aren't entirely consistent?

 

[miknik5]

Have you read the BIBLE from beginning to end?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Exodus 33:11.

It also states very clearly that they spoke like friends. I generally speak to my friends face to face. Don't you? I can't remember the last time I spoke to my friends face to face via proxy. Not even sure how that would be possible.

Is that ALL that chapter 33 states about the nature of "speaking with God face to face"?

Of course, the answer is "no, it's not," but I'm readily providing you the appropriate answer so as not to be sly and tricky about it, nor descend to the level of getting into a tirade over your insistence to hold your own ground. Rather, I'm simply going to suggest that this answer you're giving me here demonstrates that you're, at this point, in need of becoming educated about the hermeneutics involved in handling, reading and understanding the semantic complexities in ancient Jewish thought and literature.

So, rather than land into you and tell you flat out that you're wrong, and being that you likely simply haven't had the opportunity yet to become better educated, I'm just going to direct you to reading almost anything by the Jewish scholar, Jacob Neusner, among other pertinent sources.

Time to do yourself a favor, Kylie. It would be the logical thing to do.

 

[agapelove]

Why do you think I am here for you? I'm also here to point out the ridiculousness of how you have to go through some quite amazing stretches of logic to make sure the Bible remains consistent. Isn't it far more rational to conclude that the texts have had parts added over the years and thus aren't entirely consistent?

Nobody is forcing you to hit reply on my posts. You are wasting your own time and effort arguing about something that has been settled. Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's an "amazing stretch of logic". Not sure if you've noticed but I've expressed numerous times in this thread that the Bible doesn't appear entirely consistent-- you are making no new discoveries here.

 

[cvanwey]

it doesn´t matter, as I SAID before and say AGAIN, every outward denomination of every outward structure of every outward church, is the outward profession, before the eyes of men, of who and how and what we say we worship in community with others

But GOD sees the INWARD profession...

And that INWARD profession and confession before the eyes of GOD is what matters...HE sees where men can´t see and HE knows who has that TRUE CONFESSION upon which the TRUE INWARD CHURCH would be built...upon the ONE and ONLY FOUNDATION laid.

If men, within these many outward denominational churches, are on THAT ONE FOUNDATION, then that is sufficient., for within every denomination there will always be those who know who and what they worship, and those who don´t...

And most importantly, GOD isn´t fooled...it doesn´t matter what men see...it is what GOD sees...HE knows who belongs to HIM in, by and through HIS SON

Okay, great. Only God knows. You don't. Got it.

God inspires, writes, and/or co-authors a Book. People form many many many denominations around this Book. Maybe 100's... Maybe 1,000's.... Many of whom think there's in the 'right' interpretation. Many of whom feel their 'INWARD' beliefs are sound and pure - (regardless of what they are..). And yet, many follow a differing 'FOUNDATION'. -- Again, due to the shear number of denominations developed.

The gist here, is that most think they are right, likely including you. And yet, little unity on practically anything written within this Book?

You likely have genuine belief, and likely so does the person next to you. However, the two of you may conflict; enough so to where God tells at least one of you two, that you were wrong. Seems as though that maybe God was not clear enough in His intended communication. If many can make an earnest mistake, which earns them a lifetime of separation from the God for which they claim they love.

 

[miknik5]

Okay, great. Only God knows. You don't. Got it.

God inspires, writes, and/or co-authors a Book. People form many many many denominations around this Book. Maybe 100's... Maybe 1,000's.... Many of whom think there's in the 'right' interpretation. Many of whom feel their 'INWARD' beliefs are sound and pure - (regardless of what they are..). And yet, many follow a differing 'FOUNDATION'. -- Again, due to the shear number of denominations developed.

The gist here, is that most think they are right, likely including you. And yet, little unity on practically anything written within this Book?

You likely have genuine belief, and likely so does the person next to you. However, the two of you may conflict; enough so to where God tells at least one of you two, that you were wrong. Seems as though that maybe God was not clear enough in His intended communication. If many can make an earnest mistake, which earns them a lifetime of separation from the God for which they claim they love.

Guess what?

THE FOUNDATION is sufficient....anything after that is temporal, material, subject to change, error and decay...

It is the difference between THE CHURCH...and manmade yeast added where manmade yeast is not needed.

Thankfully, those who have grown up into THE HEAD are able to discern every wind of manmade yeast from THE FOUNDATION...and as such, stand fast and firm in their most HOLY FAITH...with their feet planted firmly on the FOUNDATION and they will not allow any sand to come between their feet and THAT FOUNDATION....

 

[miknik5]

I know you don't understand...but those who do, will understand....

 

[cvanwey]

Christianity is the only religion with historical evidence including proof of prophecy, consistency in manuscripts written hundreds of years apart, and nonbiblical accounts of Jesus.

I would love to take a look at this evidence. But before we do, can we lay forth some very basic ground rules?

1. What attribute(s) ideally constitutes a successful 'prophecy'?
2. How does re-copying the same story, over and over, verify that the unlocated original document is real? And furthermore, just because the located original says something, that it had to happen like the original was written?
3. Please list some of the biggest non-biblical accounts of Jesus, when they were written, who wrote them, and exactly what they claim?

There is no shortage of evidence for Christian apologetics— overwhelmingly more than any evidence for your great great grandmother I am sure.

And yet, seems as though we may have more solid evidence that my great great grandfather existed, verses some of the claims from the Bible. Please see above...

Personally, the thousands of testimonies of changed lives are enough evidence for me.

What about the many from opposing religions, and their testimonials? Do you ignore those, or maybe accept them too, or, maybe you discard them as mistaken/other?

God never works in the way I intended or expected. He is far beyond my imagination.

I could make this blanket statement/assertion about virtually anything. This gets us no close to 'truth.' Again, please see what I stated about 'gravity.' Namely:

1. For gravity, I do not need to make excuses. My trust in this force is reliable and consistent.
2. This force, in and of itself, makes no claims. But God apparently does....

Actually yes. I feel I appreciate and live life more fully when I attribute life to God. I credit Him for the cloud layers in beautiful sunsets and Him for the neurons in humans emotions like love and joy. I am not sure that science alone can ever satisfy human wonder but feel free to settle for whatever explanations you want.

Science is a means/method of explaining phenomenon. I don't think the intent of science, is to make you feel 'good' or 'bad' about something; but only to explain it...

Sounds to me like you need to assign 'God' with the things you enjoy. In another words, and not to sound rude, but... 'God exists because feelings.' But as we know, feelings are not an accurate way to discern truth; unless by accident or chance.

I am talking about what God desires after salvation.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Good works is not about attending church or reading your Bible. It is about looking out for the least of these. It is about being moved by God to care for the poor, needy and oppressed, whether they are dying children or mentally handicapped, because the Kingdom of God is dedicated to them. God does not build a home for the homeless out of thin air, He calls each of us to do our part in "preparing" the Kingdom of God, so that it may one day be delivered back to Him. This is how God will restore creation. I am not sure how you got to the conclusion of sacrificing babies.

If the criteria is already met, 'grace', then all eventually go to heaven. Seems as though, under your assertions of thought, that the ones more-so 'blessed', are the ones whom are not capable of disappointing God. The ones whom disappoint God less, require less or no 'purification' beforehand. Seems logical then, to just conceive, then immediately destroy. Saves God work, since all humans are ultimately saved by grace anyways.

And again, once you are finally in God's intended heaven, you are no longer you anyways. You are transformed anew. The rest, beforehand, is then just a side-show. The ending goal, for everyone, is and will be the same, regardless of how long it takes --- as eternity is a long time...

Please see my above response.

I did, and my previous response still stands unchallenged:

A: Eternity is a long time. If I'm eventually going to end up where God wants me, due to 'grace', then it really does not matter about your 'hope' for me, right?
B: My point here is that, according to God, every knee will bow, because God will unveil His presence to all, in a way no one can deny. THUS, I do not need to 'prepare' for anything
C: See A: and B:

That is a rather immature way to look at things, cvanwey.

I am sure that your own mother/father is a very gracious person, who probably loves you unconditionally. Knowing this, do you "run amuck"? In the end it is you that has to come to terms with your own sin, shame, and repentance.

No sir. It's a practical way to look at things. Under your assertion(s), it does not matter...

I'm an unbeliever. Hence, if what you state IS true, then I will be revealed of the one true God after I die. And at some point, God will shake me up enough, where I will fall into place, ultimately like all the others. Hence, if I decide to run amuck for now, my destination goal might merely first take a few detours before getting there

But yea, I already KNOW my parents exist, which makes your analogy null and void

God's universal salvation plan does not violate free will. People 'ultimately ending up where He wants them' is not the same thing as them being forced to go there against their will. God allows us to accept our salvation in our own way.

And ultimately, all go to God anyways. So it really does not matter. If there is only one game in town, or one scenario for which to navigate after death, (i.e.) heaven and hell, whom in their 'right mind' would actively choose hell? And even if they did, you think they would opt to stay there eternally? Please lookup the basics about 'freewill'. I'll start:

"the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

In the mean time, I will post my questions again, for either you or someone else to address:

1. WHY put humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?
2. What sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down?
3. In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?

Like I said sir God respects your free will, so it will be in your time.

Much like taxes and criminal law, under the basic definition of freewill, Christianity does not apply either. God is the rule maker.

All three systems are instead more-so compulsory in nature.

I feel I have addressed these points extensively throughout the course of our discussion; including my testimonies of how I personally encounter God, my consensus that faith is not uniform, and the idea you can make choices that affect your beliefs. If you feel I have not adequately addressed your concerns then please ask more specific questions.

You are doing great! Like I also said, you fulfilled your end of the bargain long ago! These are all follow up questions. Feel free to take a stab at them, or not

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?

- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.

- And no, belief is not a choice Otherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.

 

[cvanwey]

I know you don't understand...but those who do, will understand....

Is this a tautology, or a deepity?

 

[cvanwey]

I give you a lot of examples as well. What basic logic are you talking about?

If you have to ask again, then I care not to repeat, yet again.

The most important commandment for a Christian is to Love God with all your heart/soul/mind,

Essentially, in a round-about way, you are asserting the 1st Commandment is the most important. Okay. Seems as though you are attempting to establish a hierarchy or ranking system...

Does this mean the 4th Commandment is more important than the 6th Commandment?

such person can't curse God.

Then why list it as a law for Christians to follow at all? It might as well tell Christians, 'don't grow wings without my permission.'

Once you put God first, it won't change.

Sure it can. I gave you examples.... Hint, belief is not a choice...

 

[miknik5]

Is this a tautology, or a deepity?

No, it´s just my own phraseology of Isaiahś prophecy of making the hearts of the people fat...

 

[Kylie]

Have you read the BIBLE from beginning to end?

Yes.

 

[agapelove]

I would love to take a look at this evidence. But before we do, can we lay forth some very basic ground rules?

1. What attribute(s) ideally constitutes a successful 'prophecy'?
2. How does re-copying the same story, over and over, verify that the unlocated original document is real? And furthermore, just because the located original says something, that it had to happen like the original was written?
3. Please list some of the biggest non-biblical accounts of Jesus, when they were written, who wrote them, and exactly what they claim?

(1) 100% accuracy. (2) I am not talking about re-copying. Original manuscripts were written over a span of 1500 years by a number of different authors, yet there is enough consistency to call it one book. (3) Prominent writings include that of historian Flavius Josephus (93 AD), Roman senator Tacitus (116 AD), Roman governor Pliny the Younger (112 AD), Roman historian Suetonius (121 AD), Greek author Lucian (165 AD), as well as the Babylonian Talmud (70-500 AD). All writings affirm the existence of a man named Jesus who was thought of as a messiah by many in the Jewish community.

I do not specialize in apologetics so if you are someone who is interested in professionally written discourses then I would recommend C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, Josh McDowell, or Ravi Zacharias.

And yet, seems as though we may have more solid evidence that my great great grandfather existed, verses some of the claims from the Bible. Please see above...

There are thousands of manuscripts that provide historical proof of the Old/New Testament and millions of people who have been impacted by the Bible. Nobody knows who your great great grandfather is.

What about the many from opposing religions, and their testimonials? Do you ignore those, or maybe accept them too, or, maybe you discard them as mistaken/other?

I believe in one God with many names, who can reveal Himself in many ways. As a Christian I meet God through the person of Jesus. I cannot speak for other religions but I'm sure they have good reason to believe what they believe.

I could make this blanket statement/assertion about virtually anything. This gets us no close to 'truth.' Again, please see what I stated about 'gravity.' Namely:

1. For gravity, I do not need to make excuses. My trust in this force is reliable and consistent.
2. This force, in and of itself, makes no claims. But God apparently does....

Neither does God need you to make excuses for Him.

Science is a means/method of explaining phenomenon. I don't think the intent of science, is to make you feel 'good' or 'bad' about something; but only to explain it... Sounds to me like you need to assign 'God' with the things you enjoy. In another words, and not to sound rude, but... 'God exists because feelings.' But as we know, feelings are not an accurate way to discern truth; unless by accident or chance.

No worries, it was not rude. I'm aware of what science is. It does little to answer many of life's deepest questions. People believe God because they would rather not live their whole lives settling for the fact that they are just atoms and there is no meaning to it at all.

If the criteria is already met, 'grace', then all eventually go to heaven. Seems as though, under your assertions of thought, that the ones more-so 'blessed', are the ones whom are not capable of disappointing God. The ones whom disappoint God less, require less or no 'purification' beforehand. Seems logical then, to just conceive, then immediately destroy. Saves God work, since all humans are ultimately saved by grace anyways.

Indeed that is what the Pagans believed. You were a Christian for many years so I am sure you know where God stands on child sacrifice.

And again, once you are finally in God's intended heaven, you are no longer you anyways. You are transformed anew. The rest, beforehand, is then just a side-show. The ending goal, for everyone, is and will be the same, regardless of how long it takes --- as eternity is a long time...

We do not have to wait until heaven to be made anew (2 Corinthians 5:17).

A: Eternity is a long time. If I'm eventually going to end up where God wants me, due to 'grace', then it really does not matter about your 'hope' for me, right?
B: My point here is that, according to God, every knee will bow, because God will unveil His presence to all, in a way no one can deny. THUS, I do not need to 'prepare' for anything
C: See A: and B:

A. You are the one that asked me to pray for you, sir. B. Feel free to do as little as you'd like. But like I said you do not have to wait until heaven to partake in the Kingdom of God (Luke 17:21). The party is already happening but no one will force you to have fun.

I'm an unbeliever. Hence, if what you state IS true, then I will be revealed of the one true God after I die. And at some point, God will shake me up enough, where I will fall into place, ultimately like all the others. Hence, if I decide to run amuck for now, my destination goal might merely first take a few detours before getting there
But yea, I already KNOW my parents exist, which makes your analogy null and void

Sir you do not need anyone's permission to run amuck. The question is not if you can but rather why you would want to. The only person you are hurting in that situation is yourself.

And ultimately, all go to God anyways. So it really does not matter. If there is only one game in town, or one scenario for which to navigate after death, (i.e.) heaven and hell, whom in their 'right mind' would actively choose hell? And even if they did, you think they would opt to stay there eternally? Please lookup the basics about 'freewill'. I'll start: "the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."

Heaven or hell/good or evil/self-love or self-destruction are not just eschatological options. People are presented with these choices every day and you would be surprised how often we choose the wrong option. You demonstrated this beautifully when even in the face of unconditional love, your first thought was to "run amuck".

In the mean time, I will post my questions again, for either you or someone else to address:
1. WHY put humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?
2. What sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down?
3. In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?

(1) Sir it looks like you are the one that has decided to put yourself through such a process; "Hence, if I decide to run amuck for now, my destination goal might merely first take a few detours before getting there " (2) Please refer to the definition of free will; "the ability to act at one's own discretion." (3) You will just have to find out when you get there.

Much like taxes and criminal law, under the basic definition of freewill, Christianity does not apply either. God is the rule maker.

Adam and Eve along with all of humanity have demonstrated repeatedly how we have the free will to not oblige by God's rules.

You are doing great! Like I also said, you fulfilled your end of the bargain long ago! These are all follow up questions. Feel free to take a stab at them, or not
- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?
- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.
-And no, belief is not a choice Otherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.

2/3 of these are not questions.

 

[cvanwey]

Have you read the BIBLE from beginning to end?

Yes

 

[miknik5]

Why do you think I am here for you? I'm also here to point out the ridiculousness of how you have to go through some quite amazing stretches of logic to make sure the Bible remains consistent. Isn't it far more rational to conclude that the texts have had parts added over the years and thus aren't entirely consistent?

No it isn´t a logical conclusion that parts were added over years because when one is born of THE SPIRIT and can understand the hidden TRUTHS of GOD, one is amazed at how all those signs , spoken through the prophets, (who could not fully understand all that they were saying), were speaking of and pointing to all the hidden truths and realities found in CHRIST...

The BIBLE is a well fitted puzzle...it is a TESTIMONY and WITNESS of JESUS...