Purveyor of Confusion

[Kylie]

Ma’am your argument is that Moses literally saw God’s face and that Jacob literally wrestled with God. How can people who do not believe God EXISTS help support that argument?

The only logic you are defeating here is your own.

No, and you may have realised this earlier if you noted my religion is marked as "atheist" and thus I do not believe that Moses nor anyone else has ever seen God, be it face to face or in any other way.

My argument is that the Bible claims that Moses did something which elsewhere in the Bible is described as impossible, and thus, the Bible is contradictory. We can not trust that it contains an accurate account of anything unless we can verify the claims it makes from an external source.

 

[miknik5]

And I ASK again... Probably three times now... How many denominations are there?

And further still, if truth is universal, shouldn't there at least exist majority agreement?

it doesn´t matter, as I SAID before and say AGAIN, every outward denomination of every outward structure of every outward church, is the outward profession, before the eyes of men, of who and how and what we say we worship in community with others

But GOD sees the INWARD profession...

And that INWARD profession and confession before the eyes of GOD is what matters...HE sees where men can´t see and HE knows who has that TRUE CONFESSION upon which the TRUE INWARD CHURCH would be built...upon the ONE and ONLY FOUNDATION laid.

If men, within these many outward denominational churches, are on THAT ONE FOUNDATION, then that is sufficient., for within every denomination there will always be those who know who and what they worship, and those who don´t...

And most importantly, GOD isn´t fooled...it doesn´t matter what men see...it is what GOD sees...HE knows who belongs to HIM in, by and through HIS SON

 

[agapelove]

No, and you may have realised this earlier if you noted my religion is marked as "atheist" and thus I do not believe that Moses nor anyone else has ever seen God, be it face to face or in any other way.

Ma’am I believe that is what I have been trying to tell you all along.

My argument is that the Bible claims that Moses did something which elsewhere in the Bible is described as impossible, and thus, the Bible is contradictory. We can not trust that it contains an accurate account of anything unless we can verify the claims it makes from an external source.

If your main argument is that the Bible contains contradictions then I believe I already verified this 10 pages back. I have tried to show how this particular “contradiction” can be resolved but you wish to read the text at face value.

“I have not eaten in ages!”
“I have not eaten since breakfast!”

A person who does not understand context, figure of speech, tone, language, and writing style will obviously view these two statements as contradictory. Am I suddenly a liar?!

Please, go ahead and try to “verify” with an external source whether or not Moses and Jacob saw God. You will not be able to find any that can either confirm or deny.

 

[Kylie]

Ma’am I believe that is what I have been trying to tell you all along.

You don't believe that anyone anywhere at any time has ever seen any part of God?

If your main argument is that the Bible contains contradictions then I believe I already verified this 10 pages back. I have tried to show how this particular “contradiction” can be resolved but you wish to read the text at face value.

“I have not eaten in ages!”
“I have not eaten since breakfast!”

A person who does not understand context, figure of speech, tone, language, and writing style will obviously view these two statements as contradictory. Am I suddenly a liar?!

Please, go ahead and try to “verify” with an external source whether or not Moses and Jacob saw God. You will not be able to find any that can either confirm or deny.

Ah yes, because the term "ages" has such a precise definition.

 

[agapelove]

You don't believe that anyone anywhere at any time has ever seen any part of God?

No. No one can literally see God. Or else you will die according to Exodus.

Ah yes, because the term "ages" has such a precise definition.

Ah yes, because “face to face” is a precise statement as well.

“I came face to face with a problem.”

Tell me Kylie what does the problem’s face look like?

 

[Kylie]

No. No one can literally see God. Or else you will die according to Exodus.

Moses saw God. And he didn't die according to Genesis.

In any case, lots of people saw God according to the Bible. Isaiah 6:1, Job 42:5, Amos 9:1, Exodus 24:10-11, Judges 13:22. Moses even saw God's posterior: Exodus 33:20-23

Ah yes, because “face to face” is a precise statement as well.

“I came face to face with a problem.”

Tell me Kylie what does the problem’s face look like?

A problem is not an individual. If I told you I came face to face with an individual, would you assume it was metaphorical? Of course not.

 

[agapelove]

Moses saw God. And he didn't die according to Genesis.

In any case, lots of people saw God according to the Bible. Isaiah 6:1, Job 42:5, Amos 9:1, Exodus 24:10-11, Judges 13:22. Moses even saw God's posterior: Exodus 33:20-23

A problem is not an individual. If I told you I came face to face with an individual, would you assume it was metaphorical? Of course not.

Neither is GOD an individual, my friend. We can not perfectly identify Him using words. We call God Father but He is neither WOMAN OR MAN. Our attempts at stuffing God into a box “ie. a man with a face” will only BREAK your box.

This is exactly what I was trying to show with gravity. We can understand how to TALK ABOUT gravity but never fully understand what gravity IS. Same with parallel universes, TIME, colors, feelings, LIFE, dreams, black holes, EMOTIONS, etc etc etc.

We can SEE God in everyday experiences and people but we do not ever literally SEE God. “Seeing God” is a common phrase.

You are working hard to force the figurative to be literal when you really do not have to. I understand your point, just not the best example.

 

[Kylie]

Neither is GOD an individual, my friend. We can not perfectly identify Him using words. We call God Father but He is neither WOMAN OR MAN. Our attempts at stuffing God into a box “ie. a man with a face” will only BREAK your box.

This is exactly what I was trying to show with gravity. We can understand how to TALK ABOUT gravity but never fully understand what gravity IS. Same with parallel universes, TIME, colors, feelings, LIFE, dreams, black holes, EMOTIONS, etc etc etc.

We can SEE God in everyday experiences and people but we do not ever literally SEE God. “Seeing God” is a common phrase.

You are working hard to force the figurative to be literal when you really do not have to. I understand your point, just not the best example.

So God taking a visible form is something he can't do?

 

[agapelove]

So God taking a visible form is something he can't do?

Show me where I said that, please. God can do whatever He wants. If He wants to pay me a visit as a cockroach He is welcome to.

In the OT God reveals Himself through a burning bush, a pillar of fire, prophets, and miracles (parting of the Red Sea, plagues, raining manna). All of these are visible things but we cannot say that God is literally a burning bush, a pillar of fire, an ocean split in half, or a piece of manna from the sky.

God later reveals Himself in the NT through Jesus Christ, who is the "fullest revelation of God" because He was human, and we learned the most about God through Christ. God chose to make Himself known as an average-looking, low-class carpenter which is NOT what people expected (breaking boxes). JC is God in flesh but God is not literally flesh (He is Spirit).

When I say no one can literally see God I mean no one can see Him in His full, unapproachable form, until the consummation of things, when we join Him in all its glory and honor (1 John 3:2).

 

[Kylie]

Show me where I said that, please. God can do whatever He wants. If He wants to pay me a visit as a cockroach He is welcome to.

In the OT God reveals Himself through a burning bush, a pillar of fire, prophets, and miracles (parting of the Red Sea, plagues, raining manna). All of these are visible things but we cannot say that God is literally a burning bush, a pillar of fire, an ocean split in half, or a piece of manna from the sky.

God later reveals Himself in the NT through Jesus Christ, who is the "fullest revelation of God" because He was human, and we learned the most about God through Christ. God chose to make Himself known as an average-looking, low-class carpenter which is NOT what people expected (breaking boxes). JC is God in flesh but God is not literally flesh (He is Spirit).

When I say no one can literally see God I mean no one can see Him in His full, unapproachable form, until the consummation of things, when we join Him in all its glory and honor (1 John 3:2).

"...but we do not ever literally SEE God."

 

[agapelove]

"...but we do not ever literally SEE God."

I notice you do not read posts before you respond. Not a very good way to defeat illogic.

 

[Kylie]

I notice you do not read posts before you respond. Not a very good way to defeat illogic.

I notice that you do not actually respond to the issues raised in posts.

 

[cvanwey]

Sir you cannot compare your faith in God to your faith in Australia or your great great grandmother. Several hundred years ago a man saw an apple fall and decided to call it gravity. Then the world said "Okay sure", accepted it as reality, and came up with formulas and equations to better understand it.

Why not? My amount of 'faith' in anything is basically proportionate to the amount of evidence which exists to demonstrate as such. Hence, the claimed God of the Bible, leaves me virtually faithless. And one of the reasons I have concluded as such, is that the claims do not match with my reality.

Truth is we know NOTHING ABOUT GRAVITY STILL, only how to think about it.

EVEN IF this were true, I can put gravity to the test, time and time again. I can rely upon it, time and time again. I do not need to make excuses, if it does not work the way I expected or intended. If you can do this with [your] believed upon 'God', please demonstrate? The term 'gravity' is a label we humans slap upon it. This force, in and of itself, makes no claims. God apparently does

God is not a stone-hearted king sitting far far away on his giant throne in outer space. Was God impotent when he chose to manifest Himself as a low-class carpenter from Nazareth? The Jews thought so! They were expecting a MESSIAH. Was God impotent when he allowed this low-class carpenter to be spat on, kicked, pierced, and CRUCIFIED? They sure thought so! (Matthew 27:42)

The root of your disappointment is your expectations of a fantasy Messiah showing up when really God is found in the least expected places of your life-- outside of prayer, outside of church, outside of Christian Forums!

Please see above in red.

Because that is where I found him, brother! I remember feeling crushed after church every week because everyone else was hands raised, on their knees, eyes closed looking like they had been POSSESSED by the Holy Spirit. I said "Why not me too, God?" I surrendered my expectations of what God was suppose to feel and look like and I started seeing Him clearly in my mother's love, in the innocence of children, in music, sunsets, laughter, friendships, kindness from strangers. I don't know your life but I really hope you don't have to squint, tilt your head, or really concentrate, to think of similar experiences.

Apparently, it looks as if you decided to instead reconcile human emotion, human actions, and explained natural phenomenon as 'God'? Please see above in red.

Not sure where you conjured up this argument. What was it that I said gave you the impression God has something against still-borns, infants, children, mentally handicapped, etc etc??? Quite the opposite.

Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. -- Matthew 5:3-10

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. -- Matthew 20:16

The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' -- Matthew 25:40

In post #722, you stated:

"God is preparing creation to be ready to stand in the full presence of God, but we are not yet ready. I will pray for you but I hope that you will allow yourself to open your heart up to God again. I hope that your time here on CF is not for nothing."

1. So, if He is preparing creation, HOW would this apply to still-borns, dead infants, dead children, etc? Are you saying that the ones we mourn are the 'lucky ones'? If so, then maybe humans should just abort every pregnancy? If we love our children as much as God, seems like a small sacrifice to assure our offspring end up where they need to go, without first being subjected to a plausible 'purification' processes.
2. And why does anyone NEED to prepare? Once you transcend from where-ever, to heaven, you are no longer you anyways.

A. He will not. I hope you are living your best life as a skeptic.
B. No one can force you to. Like you said, I cannot force you to love someone. Likewise nothing could force me to love and listen to my mother when I was a teenager. It was only years later that I realized the depth of her affection, which then began to transform me. I will probably never fully know the depth of her affection until I have children of my own one day.
C. If I could go back to my teenage self and say "STOP. LOVE YOURSELF AND LOVE YOUR MOM." I totally would, would have saved myself a lot of heartbreak.

A: Eternity is a long time. If I'm eventually going to end up where God wants me, due to 'grace', then it really does not matter about your 'hope' for me, right?
B: My point here is that, according to God, every knee will bow, because God will unveil His presence to all, in a way no one can deny. THUS, I do not need to 'prepare' for anything
C: See A: and B:

Yes cvanwey, live your life... to the fullest! That is really what God wants (John 10:10).

And if it does not align with God's wishes, God's grace will place me where He wants me anyways. Hence, 'Jesus' already solved all the issues. Humans can run amuck. At worst, we will have to endure some temporary 'cleansing process'.

Yes, God truly does work in mysterious ways!

Please see above in red.

But I did ask some actual questions, for which you did not address:

1. WHY put such humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?
2. What sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down?
3. In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?

The idea of hell is detestable to me so God chose to speak to me in a different language. There are some that find the idea of 'everyone's in' to be detestable so God speaks their language. The Father knows each child's language. In the end, when we are all grown up in Heaven, we will all sit around laughing about how immature we all were.

God told you this, or you found this in the Bible?

You -past tense- searched for God or are you still searching for God? I am happy to do my part in discipling others and I'm sorry if I've misinterpreted your responses, but if this is going to continue as an argument of whether God is confusing or not then I believe I've submitted. God being confusing is not a reason for you to not try. Gravity is confusing but I don't reject the idea of it.

As stated prior, I don't need to search - (past or present). According to [you], God will present to me in His time. God will correct me, in His time. I will submit, in God's time. In the end, we all end up in heaven anyways. And like I stated prior, eternity is a LONG time. Hence, it really does not matter, according to your philosophy.

You have already fulfilled the intent of this post, by acknowledging the point of this thread

But my purpose here is to also shed further light, as to why people have come to the conclusions they reach. It's not so much for the ones directly engaging/posting, as your conclusions have likely been made; but instead for others to read them. It's quite rare to change someones mind, in a direct debate

So, if you wish, please address my prior points. If not, so-be-it :

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?

- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.

- And no, belief is not a choice Otherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.

 

[cvanwey]

When conversation perpetually goes backwards in 'progress', it might just be time to 'stick a fork in it.'

I won't do your work for you either

POST #620. My work has been provided like 4 times now....

I have question regarding this as well, so won't pretend I am an expert on this.

If you have such question, then why feel intercessory prayer works at all?

It is not a true scotsman fallacy, as I showed you again and again . someone who curses God is definitely not a real Christian, as a real one loves God beyond anything else in this world.

So in your example, YEC or OEC, does not matter if he/she takes the Bible literally, if he/she cursed God, he/she is not a real Christian. In my example, when Bohr argues against Einstein, even when Einstein win, he still has faith in his own argument, and even after Einstein was supposedly disprove by experiments, others continued to have faith in Einstein and might have hope to debunk the other side.

Please see the definition I provided. Please also see the many examples I laid forth, time and time again. If you are not getting it, or refuse to acknowledge, I'm not going to exhaust even more efforts/examples, to demonstrate.

 

[agapelove]

I notice that you do not actually respond to the issues raised in posts.

It would not be an issue if you had decided to read the rest of my post.

When I say no one can literally see God I mean no one can see Him in His full, unapproachable form.

 

[agapelove]

Why not? My amount of 'faith' in anything is basically proportionate to the amount of evidence which exists to demonstrate as such. Hence, the claimed God of the Bible, leaves me virtually faithless. And one of the reasons I have concluded as such, is that the claims do not match with my reality.

Christianity is the only religion with historical evidence including proof of prophecy, consistency in manuscripts written hundreds of years apart, and nonbiblical accounts of Jesus. There is no shortage of evidence for Christian apologetics— overwhelmingly more than any evidence for your great great grandmother I am sure.

Personally, the thousands of testimonies of changed lives are enough evidence for me.

EVEN IF this were true, I can put gravity to the test, time and time again. I can rely upon it, time and time again. I do not need to make excuses, if it does not work the way I expected or intended. If you can do this with [your] believed upon 'God', please demonstrate? The term 'gravity' is a label we humans slap upon it. This force, in and of itself, makes no claims. God apparently does

God never works in the way I intended or expected. He is far beyond my imagination.

Apparently, it looks as if you decided to instead reconcile human emotion, human actions, and explained natural phenomenon as 'God'? Please see above in red.

Actually yes. I feel I appreciate and live life more fully when I attribute life to God. I credit Him for the cloud layers in beautiful sunsets and Him for the neurons in humans emotions like love and joy. I am not sure that science alone can ever satisfy human wonder but feel free to settle for whatever explanations you want.

"God is preparing creation to be ready to stand in the full presence of God, but we are not yet ready. I will pray for you but I hope that you will allow yourself to open your heart up to God again. I hope that your time here on CF is not for nothing."

1. So, if He is preparing creation, HOW would this apply to still-borns, dead infants, dead children, etc? Are you saying that the ones we mourn are the 'lucky ones'? If so, then maybe humans should just abort every pregnancy? If we love our children as much as God, seems like a small sacrifice to assure our offspring end up where they need to go, without first being subjected to a plausible 'purification' processes.
2. And why does anyone NEED to prepare? Once you transcend from where-ever, to heaven, you are no longer you anyways.

I am talking about what God desires after salvation.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Good works is not about attending church or reading your Bible. It is about looking out for the least of these. It is about being moved by God to care for the poor, needy and oppressed, whether they are dying children or mentally handicapped, because the Kingdom of God is dedicated to them. God does not build a home for the homeless out of thin air, He calls each of us to do our part in "preparing" the Kingdom of God, so that it may one day be delivered back to Him. This is how God will restore creation. I am not sure how you got to the conclusion of sacrificing babies.

A: Eternity is a long time. If I'm eventually going to end up where God wants me, due to 'grace', then it really does not matter about your 'hope' for me, right?
B: My point here is that, according to God, every knee will bow, because God will unveil His presence to all, in a way no one can deny. THUS, I do not need to 'prepare' for anything
C: See A: and B:

Please see my above response.

And if it does not align with God's wishes, God's grace will place me where He wants me anyways. Hence, 'Jesus' already solved all the issues. Humans can run amuck. At worst, we will have to endure some temporary 'cleansing process'.

That is a rather immature way to look at things, cvanwey.

I am sure that your own mother/father is a very gracious person, who probably loves you unconditionally. Knowing this, do you "run amuck"? In the end it is you that has to come to terms with your own sin, shame, and repentance.

But I did ask some actual questions, for which you did not address:
1. WHY put such humans through such a process, if they are going to ultimately end up where He wants them anyways?
2. What sort of 'loving God', would set back, and watch it all happen, knowing with infallible certainty, exactly the way it was going to go down?
3. In the end, they all end up in heaven anyways. What does the human gain, after being in heaven? Do humans sit around, and compare stories of what God put them through before they got there?

God's universal salvation plan does not violate free will. People 'ultimately ending up where He wants them' is not the same thing as them being forced to go there against their will. God allows us to accept our salvation in our own way.

God told you this, or you found this in the Bible?

Just what I've chosen to believe.

As stated prior, I don't need to search - (past or present). According to [you], God will present to me in His time. God will correct me, in His time. I will submit, in God's time. In the end, we all end up in heaven anyways. And like I stated prior, eternity is a LONG time. Hence, it really does not matter, according to your philosophy.

Like I said sir God respects your free will, so it will be in your time.

So, if you wish, please address my prior points. If not, so-be-it :

- What 'evidence' specifically have I been given, and should follow, for God?

- The title of the thread demonstrates how we have absolutely no unity among the believers AND non-believers. When you read the pages of the Bible, we have a multitude of 'confirmed' renditions. You are a testament to this; and a contributor.

- And no, belief is not a choice Otherwise, simply WILL yourself to believe the opposite of something you currently truly belief, without reason.

I feel I have addressed these points extensively throughout the course of our discussion; including my testimonies of how I personally encounter God, my consensus that faith is not uniform, and the idea you can make choices that affect your beliefs. If you feel I have not adequately addressed your concerns then please ask more specific questions.

 

[dcalling]

When conversation perpetually goes backwards in 'progress', it might just be time to 'stick a fork in it.'

The feeling is mutual.

POST #620. My work has been provided like 4 times now....

Same here, I started to copy/paste my answers but that is no use. You can't just give a post #, either give a link that I can click or paste content.

If you have such question, then why feel intercessory prayer works at all?

What you do with things you don't understand? Try them out and wait.

Please see the definition I provided. Please also see the many examples I laid forth, time and time again. If you are not getting it, or refuse to acknowledge, I'm not going to exhaust even more efforts/examples, to demonstrate.

Same here. I told you someone who don't love God with all (i.e. put God first) is not a real Christian that is saved. A real Christian is Christ like, put God as #1. It does not matter what they call themselves, or if they can remember the whole Bible, or born into a Christian family.

The moment they curse God, you know such person is not saved. You just can't get it

 

[cvanwey]

The moment they curse God, you know such person is not saved. You just can't get it

Oh, I got what you were saying, the very first time. It just does not align with basic logic. I gave you many examples, I also told you why the verses are then like parsley, and I also provided a sound definition; and it is [you] whom "just can't get it"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No, and you may have realised this earlier if you noted my religion is marked as "atheist" and thus I do not believe that Moses nor anyone else has ever seen God, be it face to face or in any other way.

My argument is that the Bible claims that Moses did something which elsewhere in the Bible is described as impossible, and thus, the Bible is contradictory. We can not trust that it contains an accurate account of anything unless we can verify the claims it makes from an external source.

Where does it say that Moses saw God face to face and it meant that and only that ... ?

 

[dcalling]

Oh, I got what you were saying, the very first time. It just does not align with basic logic. I gave you many examples, I also told you why the verses are then like parsley, and I also provided a sound definition; and it is [you] whom "just can't get it"

I give you a lot of examples as well. What basic logic are you talking about?

The most important commandment for a Christian is to Love God with all your heart/soul/mind, such person can't curse God. Once you put God first, it won't change.