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Well said, jess. According to the model given to us by Christ, leadership and submission are exactly the same thing. That's the whole point: leadership by example, and mutual submission. And that is where any attempt to provide moral backing for culturally-founded gender roles hits a wall and breaks into pieces.
I agree with the idea that "a marriage should be a partnership with both husbands and wives giving and taking in the relationship," however, submission on the part of the wife goes right along with that. Also, you really have to be aware of what your definition of submission is.
Biblical submission is not:
-Being quiet
-Withholding opinions
-Mindlessly following and obeying
-Tirelessly serving
-Applicable to non-Christians
Biblical submission is:
-Trusting
-Following leadership
-Applicable only to believers
And just to provide the other side of things...
Biblical headship/leadership is not:
-Domineering/over-powering
-Self-serving
-Beligerent
-Lazy
-Passive
Biblical headship/leadership is:
-Servanthood
-Selfless
-Responsible
-Caring and gentle
-Courageous
-Christ-centered
Two things are incredibly important here:
1. This applies in a Christian context. Women have no reason to follow the leadership of men who are not truly Christ-following Christians. Does this mean that non-Christian men can't be good husbands? No. But it does mean that their leadership is lacking, even if it's good.
2. It is absolutely not the job of the man to play Holy Spirit and make sure the wife is fulfilling her role as wife. And it is absolutely not the job of the woman to play Holy Spirit and make sure the husband is fulfilling his role as husband. Is it okay to approach them and challenge them to be better? Not at all. But the man should be always mainly concerned about loving and serving his wife while the woman should be always mainly concerned about loving and serving her husband. (And how they love and serve the other will look different because *spoiler alert* men and women are different.)
Yep, and I can understand where you're (well, other guys too) coming from as well. Maybe it's the wording that some men use "I'm a man therefore I have authority over you" that really gets to me. I was raised in a family of very strong and sometimes opinionated women, so I can get rankled by hearing that...
How does it look different? And what, if any, are the substantive, spiritual differences behind how it looks? How, in fact, could any such difference exist once one recognizes that Christian leadership and Christian submission are the same thing?
I'm curious: how would you react if someone said the same thing, except about race instead of sex? Like if I said, "God created Race X to have authority over Race Y and to be the leader"? Would you react like a crime was committed against humanity?Good lord... It's kind of annoying when you act like a crime is being committed against humanity and it's up to you to stop it.
Because men and women are different. Men are primarily satisfied within the context of marriage in different ways than women are primarily satisfied.
I'm curious: how would you react if someone said the same thing, except about race instead of sex? Like if I said, "God created Race X to have authority over Race Y and to be the leader"? Would you react like a crime was committed against humanity?
But now you're talking biology. I'm talking about spiritual differences, as in responsibility and privilege.
Bible says wives submit to husbands, not the other way around. This is a spiritual and practical obligation that the wife performs differently than the husband.
Races of humanity are totally equal in terms of their duties and responsibilities on earth. Genders of humanity are equal in dignity and worth, but not in terms of their duties and responsiblities. Men and women are asked by God to do different things because they are created to do different things.How is it different?
Well, you could say the responsibilities are the same from a bird's eye view. The husband and wife should love and respect each other. But the way those responsibilities are carried out looks very different. And the differences between men and women really are not just biological.
Says who? There are plenty of southern preachers prior to the mid-twentieth century who would dispute that.Races of humanity are totally equal in terms of their duties and responsibilities on earth.
So if there was a Bible verse that said that one race was to lead and another to follow, you would have no problem with that?Men and women are asked by God to do different things because they are created to do different things.
So, answer my original question then. How do they look different? What spiritual differences are there that cause the difference in the way they look?
(I'm going to tell you up front though, I don't believe in such spiritual differences. Both man and woman are made in God's image, and God is One God.)
So? They're bigots with no biblical basis for their belief. What's your point anyways?Says who? There are plenty of southern preachers prior to the mid-twentieth century who would dispute that.
Well, I would hesitate to develop a whole understanding of something like that based off of one verse. I would rather read the one verse in light of the whole work of Scripture, but in general, if that principle was laid out in Scripture, I would be challenged to address and agree with it. But that isn't in Scripture, sooooo....So if there was a Bible verse that said that one race was to lead and another to follow, you would have no problem with that?
God is also three Persons, each with distinct roles
Spiritually, men are called primarily to provide leadership.
They are also called to provide for their families financially
They are called to lay down their lives for the family. This is a different type of submission than the submission that wives are called to.
Spiritually, women are called primarily to be helpers and to submit to their husbands' leadership.
And as you might notice, you can't just separate spiritual traits from physical, emotional, and mental traits, because they're all tied together.
And some can (and have) say the same thing about your belief. Of course, Paul addresses this issue in Galatians, where the Jews thought that Gentiles couldn't have table fellowship with everyone else (different roles). Paul argues against that, yet in that same epistle, Paul asserts the equality of men and women in the same place that he does Jews and Gentiles, so you probably wouldn't want to rely on that.So? They're bigots with no biblical basis for their belief.
That the arguments you're using follow the exact same formula as those who asserted that one race was above another.What's your point anyways?
I think I'll let that speak for itself--the Divine Command Theory at its worst.Well, I would hesitate to develop a whole understanding of something like that based off of one verse. I would rather read the one verse in light of the whole work of Scripture, but in general, if that principle was laid out in Scripture, I would be challenged to address and agree with it.
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