Purgatory

J_B_

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So the Catholics got it wrong?

Essentially yes, but as several have been trying to explain, it didn't happen all at once. It was a very gradual process, and it's hard to pinpoint exactly where things went wrong.

[edit] So I, for one, am trying to answer as gently as possible. Everybody makes mistakes. It doesn't mean Catholics are hopelessly lost.
 
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Valletta

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It is difficult to put a date and name to it. It evolved. Hence my mention of the book by the historian Peter Brown.

As for the actual form of the doctrine as you know it today, it did not come about before the second millenium and was not finalized until the council of Trent.

We have to differentiate several aspects:

- the idea that the souls after death still have to undergo some sort of progress / cleansing. Not the souls of the evil ones - who go to hell - or the really saintly ones - who go directly and immediately to heaven - but the souls of the "normal" ones who believe but still sin. The ideas that the souls of those people - the majority - would have to undergo some cleansing or progress after death before they can join the saints in heaven, this idea came up really early. Definitely fourth century.

- the idea that the church on earth can help those souls in the intermediate state also came up early.

- the idea that rich people can and should use their money for example to create monestaries so that the monks can pray for them after their death came up in Gaul (France) in about 600
Purgatory is a teaching handed down from Jesus through the Apostles and popes. The Jewish practice of praying for the dead (which supports purgatory) is documented in the OT. Luther's new religion did not include purgatory and so he dropped Maccabees from his version of Holy Scripture (Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from his version of the Bible, for example, Revelation remains.). The practice of Jews praying for the dead is also documented in other books during OT times, and Jews still pray for the dead today. Maccabees were kept within the physical bindings of the King James for historical purposes until the 1800s. A lot Protestants have a misunderstanding of the history of Catholic doctrine. A Council may bring up various theological points for a variety of reasons, such as great heresy taking place or real questions about specific details. That does not mean one should assume that is where the teaching first occurred or was first accepted. Theologians debated questions over the centuries, in the case of purgatory for example, did we know whether it is a state or a place? Back in the early 200s Tertullian
said:
"This place, the Bosom of Abraham, though not in Heaven, and yet above hell, offers the souls of the righteous an interim refreshment until the end of all things brings about the general resurrection and the final reward." (Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:34, before 220 A.D.)

"Indeed she [a widow] prays for his [her husband's] soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection [Heaven]. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the Sacrifice [i.e., has a Mass said for him]." (Tertullian, On Monagomy, 212 A.D.)
 
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prodromos

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Purgatory is a teaching handed down from Jesus through the Apostles and popes.
No, its a purely Western development. It is not found in the Oriental Orthodox Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church. It fails the test of Vincent of Lerins, "Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all."
 
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Valletta

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No, its a purely Western development. It is not found in the Oriental Orthodox Church, or the Eastern Orthodox Church. It fails the test of Vincent of Lerins, "Moreover, in the Catholic Church itself, all possible care must be taken, that we hold that faith which has been believed everywhere, always, by all."
Do you believe in prayers for the dead?
Do you believe in a state after death that is not Heaven nor hell?
 
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prodromos

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Do you believe in prayers for the dead?
Do you believe in a state after death that is not Heaven nor hell?
We believe that those who have died receive a foretaste of where they are headed. We also believe that their fate is not set in stone until the day of judgement. We also do not pretend to know the state of anyone's soul unless God has revealed their sainthood, so out of love for our dearly departed we pray that God will have mercy on them, confident that our prayers will not be for nought.
We do not believe in a treasury of merits. We do not believe that those who are already destined for heaven suffer in any way. We do not believe in anything resembling the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Clear?
 
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Till Schilling

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Purgatory is a teaching handed down from Jesus through the Apostles and popes.

This is what you want to believe but it is most likely false. The historical evidence of doctrinces and beliefs contained in the writings we have from the first 1000 years of the church do not show this. Plus as has been pointed out to you the Greek (and Syriac etc) part of the church does not know it.

Re your other points please note that a practice of praying for the deceased does not imply a belief in purgatory. The doctrines of

1) purgatory as a place for temporal punishment, as well as
2) the whole theory of differentiating between eternal and temporal punishment and
3) the connected doctrine of indulgences

are only found in the Roman church, have no real backing in the writings of the early church and definitely no backing in Scriptures. In fact these doctrines directly contradict Scriptures. Jesus took the punishment for sins and therefore God forgives freely all sin out of grace and no further expiation is necessary.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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We believe that those who have died receive a foretaste of where they are headed. We also believe that their fate is not set in stone until the day of judgement. We also do not pretend to know the state of anyone's soul unless God has revealed their sainthood, so out of love for our dearly departed we pray that God will have mercy on them, confident that our prayers will not be for nought.
We do not believe in a treasury of merits. We do not believe that those who are already destined for heaven suffer in any way. We do not believe in anything resembling the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Clear?
That sounds very Lutheran actually. Heaven is where the faithful wait for the resurrection and the final judgement, and is the first part of our eternal reward. All will be judged. For us, our prayers for the dead and a confirmation of our faith in God's promises of mercy and eternal life.
 
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Till Schilling

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That sounds very Lutheran actually. Heaven is where the faithful wait for the resurrection and the final judgement, and is the first part of our eternal reward. All will be judged. For us, our prayers for the dead and a confirmation of our faith in God's promises of mercy and eternal life.

Honestly I think that there are huge differences. To the extent that they can almost be seen as two different religions.

prodmos wrote:

“We also believe that their fate is not set in stone until the day of judgement.”

The Orthodox - at least some of them - believe in forgiveness of sins after death. Or differently put: they believe in change after death

In fact salvation for the Orthodox is a process of transformation. Through the stages of purification and illumination until the final stage theosis. And they believe that this process continues after death. And can and should be aided by the prayers of the believers still alive on earth.

In this spirit the monks on Mount Athos a couple of years after death inspect the remains, mainly the bones of a deceased. If it is of light colour and all the soft tissue us gone they belief this person has reached theosis. If it is of dark colour they conclude that the person has not yet reached theosis and must intensively be praid for.

judge for yourself how close this is to protestant understanding of the future of souls.
 
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Valletta

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This is what you want to believe but it is most likely false. The historical evidence of doctrinces and beliefs contained in the writings we have from the first 1000 years of the church do not show this. Plus as has been pointed out to you the Greek (and Syriac etc) part of the church does not know it.

Re your other points please note that a practice of praying for the deceased does not imply a belief in purgatory. The doctrines of

1) purgatory as a place for temporal punishment, as well as
2) the whole theory of differentiating between eternal and temporal punishment and
3) the connected doctrine of indulgences

are only found in the Roman church, have no real backing in the writings of the early church and definitely no backing in Scriptures. In fact these doctrines directly contradict Scriptures. Jesus took the punishment for sins and therefore God forgives freely all sin out of grace and no further expiation is necessary.
The Catholic Church does not teach that purgatory is necessarily a place--the Bible does not specify.
Matthew 5:25-26 :
25 Be reconciled with your adversary quickly, while you are still on the way with him, lest perhaps the adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you will be thrown in prison.
26 Amen I say to you, that you shall not go forth from there, until you have repaid the last quarter.
CPDV
1 Corinthians 3:11–15:
{3:11} For no one is able to lay any other foundation, in place of that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus.
{3:12} But if anyone builds upon this foundation, whether gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble,
{3:13} each one’s work shall be made manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it will be revealed by fire. And this fire will test each one’s work, as to what kind it is.
{3:14} If anyone’s work, which he has built upon it, remains, then he will receive a reward.
{3:15} If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer its loss, but he himself will still be saved, but only as through fire.
{3:16} Do you not know that you are the Temple of God, and that the Spirit of God lives within you? CPDV

Pope St. Gregory the Great, who died in 590 A.D. said:
"They who had the perfection of a good will in confession of sin after death pass by Purgatorial pain to life, if they may not have a sufficient amount of love to wash away their sins: and hence St. Paul says:
They are saved as so by fire.
But let the sinner who has deserved to be saved by fire there. supply by affliction of the flesh here that detect of ardent love which he knows he wants."

"But, however, it must be believed that there is a Purgatorial fire for some light faults before judgment ... but we must believe that this can only happen in the case of small and very small sins."

Saint Augustine said: "Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment" (The City of God 21:13 [A.D. 419]).

St. Caesar 470 A.D. - 543 A.D:

"If we neither return thanks to God in tribulation, nor redeem sins with good works, we shall stay in the Purgatorial fire until the above-named small sins be consumed like wood, hay and stubble ... But some one says:

I don't mind how long I stay there if at length I shall arrive at eternal life.

Let no one say this dearest brethren, because that Purgatory fire shall be severer than any punishment that can be either thought of, or seen, or felt in this world. How can anyone know whether he is about to pass through that fire for days and months or perhaps even for years?"

St. Cyprian of Carthage 200 A.D. - 258 A.D.

"It is one thing to hope for forgiveness, and another to enter into eternal glory; one thing to be cast into prison and not to go out from thence until the last farthing is paid, and another immediately to receive the reward of faith and virtue; one thing to be tortured for sins by long-lasting pains and purged by fire, and another to have already expiated sin [here below] by martyrdom."

"It is one thing to be cast into prison not to be released until the last farthing is paid, and another thing through the ardor of faith immediately to attain to the reward."
 
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Albion

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Good post, Dan. The key part of the article (below) doesn't seem at all hateful, and it does correctly present the church's teaching on Purgatory until it became common in recent years within Roman Catholicism to describe "Purgatory" as nothing more than a quick re-orientation session.

"Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that those who are saved by grace through faith have to suffer for their sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation."
 
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Valletta

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Good post, Dan. The key part of the article (below) doesn't seem at all hateful, and it does correctly present the church's teaching on Purgatory until it became common in recent years within Roman Catholicism to describe "Purgatory" as nothing more than a quick re-orientation session.

"Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that those who are saved by grace through faith have to suffer for their sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation."
I've seen that site before, so much misinformation, but I just went and read the first sentence. First, this "Catholic Encylopedia" was put together by some guys, five or so as I recall, long long ago. I am sure they were sincere and tried their best. But in fact, purgatory is NOT necessarily a place, it could be a place or just a state--the Bible does not specify. Again, anyone who wants to know real Catholic teaching should check the Catholic Catechism.We know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven, and the purifying fire spoken of in Corinthians below is what Catholics call purgatory.
1 Corinthians 3:11–15:
For no one is able to lay any other foundation, in place of that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. But if anyone builds upon this foundation, whether gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble, each one’s work shall be made manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it will be revealed by fire. And this fire will test each one’s work, as to what kind it is.
If anyone’s work, which he has built upon it, remains, then he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer its loss, but he himself will still be saved, but only as through fire.
 
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Albion

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I've seen that site before, so much misinformation, but I just went and read the first sentence.
We don't need to dispute the pro or anti nature of that page. I certainly isn't a hate source. But the part of that article I quoted was very much to the point and accurate, if read without prejudice one way or the other. So that is what really matters here.

But in fact, purgatory is NOT necessarily a place, it could be a place or just a state--the Bible does not specify.
I think we all know this. It, like heaven and hell, are called "places" in the afterlife because there is no perfect way to describe these states of being. it's not as though the map can locate them and there is no reason to argue over this aspect of the issue.

Again, anyone who wants to know real Catholic teaching should check the Catholic Catechism.We know that nothing unclean can enter Heaven,
That's why God sent his Son to die for us, so that we would be saved through him--because it was impossible for anyone to be saved on his own efforts. The idea that someone who is among the saved in Christ must still suffer for some or all of those same sins in the afterlife is a notion that is clearly without Scriptural basis and contradicts the main message of the Gospel.

1 Corinthians 3:11–15:
For no one is able to lay any other foundation, in place of that which has been laid, which is Christ Jesus. But if anyone builds upon this foundation, whether gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble, each one’s work shall be made manifest.
For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it will be revealed by fire. And this fire will test each one’s work, as to what kind it is.

continuing that Bible passage:
If anyone’s work, which he has built upon it, remains, then he will receive a reward.
If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer its loss,

but he himself will still be saved,
but only as through fire.

The message here is not that the saved must nevertheless suffer through what your church has called a state or place (Purgatory) that is as bad as Hell...except that it isn't forever as Hell is.

On the contrary, this passage is all about the rewards that will be given to those who are saved. Following a judgment of the person's deeds, some will receive more and some less. Not all will receive the same rewards, although the people in that situation are those who have been saved.
 
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FaithT

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We don't need to dispute the pro or anti nature of that page. I certainly isn't a hate source. But the part of that article I quoted was very much to the point and accurate, if read without prejudice one way or the other. So that is what really matters here.


I think we all know this. It, like heaven and hell, are called "places" in the afterlife because there is no perfect way to describe these states of being. it's not as though the map can locate them and there is no reason to argue over this aspect of the issue.


That's why God sent his Son to die for us, so that we would be saved through him--because it was impossible for anyone to be saved on his own efforts. The idea that someone who is among the saved in Christ must still suffer for some or all of those same sins in the afterlife is a notion that is clearly without Scriptural basis and contradicts the main message of the Gospel.



continuing:




The message here is not that the saved must nevertheless suffer through what your church has called a state or place (Purgatory) that is as bad as Hell...except that it isn't forever as Hell is.

On the contrary, this passage is all about those who are saved. And the issue is the rewards (other than salvation itself) which have been promised to those who are already assured of salvation. Not all will receive the same rewards.

Thanks Albion. As a former Catholic, and new Lutheran LCMS your post was very informative. As a Catholic I was constantly taught to “look it up in the catechism” or that something was “Tradition.”
 
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Valletta

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We don't need to dispute the pro or anti nature of that page. I certainly isn't a hate source. But the part of that article I quoted was very much to the point and accurate, if read without prejudice one way or the other. So that is what really matters here.


I think we all know this. It, like heaven and hell, are called "places" in the afterlife because there is no perfect way to describe these states of being. it's not as though the map can locate them and there is no reason to argue over this aspect of the issue.


That's why God sent his Son to die for us, so that we would be saved through him--because it was impossible for anyone to be saved on his own efforts. The idea that someone who is among the saved in Christ must still suffer for some or all of those same sins in the afterlife is a notion that is clearly without Scriptural basis and contradicts the main message of the Gospel.



continuing that Bible passage:



The message here is not that the saved must nevertheless suffer through what your church has called a state or place (Purgatory) that is as bad as Hell...except that it isn't forever as Hell is.

On the contrary, this passage is all about the rewards that will be given to those who are saved. Following a judgment of the person's deeds, some will receive more and some less. Not all will receive the same rewards, although the people in that situation are those who have been saved.
"As bad as hell" is a fabrication. The Church says no such thing, read the passages I quote from the Bible and take the time to learn the understanding of the Church for almost two thousand years.
 
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Valletta

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Thanks Albion. As a former Catholic, and new Lutheran LCMS your post was very informative. As a Catholic I was constantly taught to “look it up in the catechism” or that something was “Tradition.”
The Catechism is made available for Catholics and non-Catholics, it goes into depth about Catholic teaching. As you should know, there are many many Bible references. "Tradition" is a misused term by many anti-Catholics, "Sacred Tradition" consists of the teachings of Jesus as passed down through the Apostles and Popes. The Bible is huge part of Sacred Tradition. When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible, any text that was not considered 100 percent in keeping with the teaching of Jesus as passed down through the Apostles was rejected. All Bibles consisted of 73 books from the time the Church decided in the 300s up until the Reformation. Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from the Bible. For example, Revelation remains. Luther was able to get Maccabees dropped from Protestant versions of the Bible, since Maccabees details the historical practice of Jews praying for the dead. Praying for the dead implies purgatory.
 
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Albion

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"As bad as hell" is a fabrication.
Sorry, but no. That is exactly what it taught millions of its members. I realize that the word "bad" might be interpreted in different ways by different readers, so if there is any doubt about that, the Catholic Church taught that the suffering in Purgatory was the same as that of Hell, except of course that it's temporary, unlike that experienced in Hell. It may also be that the souls in Purgatory are aware of this difference. None of that is real, for there really isn't any Purgatory, but that was how this Roman Catholic belief was explained to members of the Catholic Church.

As noted before, the push is now on to downplay Purgatory, redefining it as simply an adjustment period one goes through before entering Heaven.

So now I'll leave this discussion.
 
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Valletta

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Sorry, but no. That is exactly what it taught millions of its members. I realize that the word "bad" might be interpreted in different ways by different readers, so if there is any doubt about that, the Catholic Church taught that the suffering in Purgatory was the same as that of Hell, except of course that it's temporary, unlike that experienced in Hell. It may also be that the souls in Purgatory are aware of this difference. None of that is real, for there really isn't any Purgatory, but that was how this Roman Catholic belief was explained to members of the Catholic Church.

As noted before, the push is now on to downplay Purgatory, redefining it as simply an adjustment period one goes through before entering Heaven.

So now I'll leave this discussion.
There is a huge difference in knowing that you will be with God for eternity and knowing you will be separated from God for eternity. But as I've said, purgatory is simply a name for the purification before Heaven. Catholics believe nothing unclean can enter Heaven.
 
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The Catechism is made available for Catholics and non-Catholics, it goes into depth about Catholic teaching. As you should know, there are many many Bible references. "Tradition" is a misused term by many anti-Catholics, "Sacred Tradition" consists of the teachings of Jesus as passed down through the Apostles and Popes. The Bible is huge part of Sacred Tradition. When the Catholic Church chose the 73 books of the Bible, any text that was not considered 100 percent in keeping with the teaching of Jesus as passed down through the Apostles was rejected. All Bibles consisted of 73 books from the time the Church decided in the 300s up until the Reformation. Luther was able to get some, but not all of the books he wanted dropped from the Bible. For example, Revelation remains. Luther was able to get Maccabees dropped from Protestant versions of the Bible, since Maccabees details the historical practice of Jews praying for the dead. Praying for the dead implies purgatory.
 
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