Purgatory

[MarkRohfrietsch]

And Lutherans don’t give Last Rites, correct? Do they do anything if a member of their church is dying? For example, if I were to become deathly ill, would my pastor take an emergency call and come be by my side to say prayers over me, like a priest?

While some clergy may not; many do. My Pastor included.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I’d usually have to say a combination of prayers - Our Father, Hail Mary and or Glory Be. I don’t see how reciting rote, memorized prayers that I’ve said literally hundreds (thousands?) of times will save me from Hell.

From hell? No; it will develop a prayerful mind-set, and spiritual meditation is good for one's soul.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So if Heaven forbid, an emergency would arise in the middle of the night I can feel free to call him? Their website has an after hours emergency number.

Yes.

 

[FaithT]

I'm not sure we'd call it Last Rites, but Lutheran Pastors certainly do and have an obligation to care for their congregation, and part of this is visiting the sick at the hospital, people homebound, and members on their death bed, where we pray, can have Confession and Absolution, and the Eucharist.

How does a Lutheran pastor give the Eucharist to the homebound or those in the hospital? Doesn’t the Host cease to be Jesus after communion after worship is over? Does the Pastor confect the Eucharist at ones bedside, or what?

 

[prodromos]

Where did the CC come up with praying to Saints, and especially Mary?

All the ancient Churches seek the intercession of the Saints. It isn't just the Catholic Church.

 

[Daniel9v9]

All the ancient Churches seek the intercession of the Saints. It isn't just the Catholic Church.

Respectfully, it's not found at all in the earliest Church. There's no mention of it in the Apostolic Fathers or the Didache. It's a later development.

 

[Daniel9v9]

How does a Lutheran pastor give the Eucharist to the homebound or those in the hospital? Doesn’t the Host cease to be Jesus after communion after worship is over? Does the Pastor confect the Eucharist at ones bedside, or what?

Yes, we can and we do have brief Eucharistic services in the person's home or at the hospital. Bread and wine can be consecrated wherever there's a need! God's grace is ordinarily in church, but it's not bound to the church!

I'm not sure how common or preferred it is, but it's also possible to bring the consecrated bread and wine from church to people's homes or the hospital. My understanding of it is that this is a perfectly fine historical practice for people in need, but that we are inclined to avoid it because of the risk of losing or spilling the elements on the way.

What is consecrated remains consecrated. It doesn't cease to be the body and blood of Christ when the service ends, for God's promise and gift do not expire.

 

[prodromos]

Respectfully, it's not found at all in the earliest Church. There's no mention of it in the Apostolic Fathers or the Didache. It's a later development.

If it was something unique to one of the ancient Churches, you could argue that it was a novel doctrine, but since it is common to all you basically have to claim that all of christendom had fallen into error in that regard.
There is no question of its validity in Eastern Orthodoxy. We live it on a daily basis and have countless miracles throughout the history of the Church which demonstrate its truth.

 

[FaithT]

Yes, we can and we do have brief Eucharistic services in the person's home or at the hospital. Bread and wine can be consecrated wherever there's a need! God's grace is ordinarily in church, but it's not bound to the church!

I'm not sure how common or preferred it is, but it's also possible to bring the consecrated bread and wine from church to people's homes or the hospital. My understanding of it is that this is a perfectly fine historical practice for people in need, but that we are inclined to avoid it because of the risk of losing or spilling the elements on the way.

What is consecrated is remains consecrated. It doesn't cease to be the body and blood of Christ when the service ends, for God's promise and gift do not expire.

Ok, your last paragraph makes more sense than what I wrote. Thanks for the correction!

 

[FaithT]

Yes, we can and we do have brief Eucharistic services in the person's home or at the hospital. Bread and wine can be consecrated wherever there's a need! God's grace is ordinarily in church, but it's not bound to the church!

I'm not sure how common or preferred it is, but it's also possible to bring the consecrated bread and wine from church to people's homes or the hospital. My understanding of it is that this is a perfectly fine historical practice for people in need, but that we are inclined to avoid it because of the risk of losing or spilling the elements on the way.

What is consecrated is remains consecrated. It doesn't cease to be the body and blood of Christ when the service ends, for God's promise and gift do not expire.

In my Church, before Covid, the wine was put into tiny, individual plastic cups on a tray-like thing and so were the Hosts. What do they do with the consecrated Hosts and wine that aren’t consumed? In the Catholic Church they return everything to the tabernacle but we don’t have one. So where does everything go?

 

[Daniel9v9]

In my church, before Covid, the wine was put into tiny, individual plastic cups on a tray-like thing and so were the Hosts. What do they do with the consecrated Hosts and wine that aren’t consumed? In the Catholic Church they return everything to the tabernacle but we don’t have one. So where does everything go?

Ideally, any leftovers should be consumed by the Pastor - not because he's special, or that it somehow gives more grace, but simply so that they're not wasted or misused. There should really never be a situation where there is too much for the Pastor to consume. Of course, others may help to consume it, but the point is that we don't want to waste or throw away the elements. Neither do we lock them away to worship them or parade them around. They are to be consumed, for that's what our Lord says: Take eat, take drink.

There is perhaps a way to discard with the elements in a manner that is a bit more dignified than just throwing them in the bin, and that would be to burn them. This could perhaps be done with individual plastic cups that contain drops. (This is one of the reasons why I prefer a cup!) This idea is from Exodus 12, where God commands that all leftovers must be burned, so there is nothing left.

Basically, we just want to follow the institution as it is and with reverence, and be comforted with God's gift for us. So on one hand, we recognise that the Eucharist is serious stuff - it's the body and blood of Christ -, but on the other, we don't want to add to the Sacrament by creating extra rules around it. It is the Gospel, only in tangible form, so we receive it with simplicity and thanksgiving.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

How does a Lutheran pastor give the Eucharist to the homebound or those in the hospital? Doesn’t the Host cease to be Jesus after communion after worship is over? Does the Pastor confect the Eucharist at ones bedside, or what?

In some traditions (more liberal) others take pre-consecrated elements to the sick and homebound; however, in our tradition, what happens to the body and blood of our Lord is a mystery, and it may or may not remain present outside of the context of the Eucharistic celebration; therefore all the remaining elements are consumed following the distribution. Pastor uses a shorter form (Missa Brevis) at the bedside or in the residence of the homebound person. We have always taught that without the elements or the Words of our Lord, there is no communion, and that the promise of Christs words in the Sacrament need to be heard by the recipients as well. Likewise, since it is a mystery, like Baptism, so we only baptize once, we will not reconsecrate the elements from a previous service at a later time. This is why we consume them all... Christs own words command us to "take and eat", "take and drink"; nowhere does he tell us to reserve it or to venerate it outside of the context of the Mass or to save it for later.

 

[Till Schilling]

Do you mean the CC started it as a way to make money? If so, what’s your source? I’m not doubting you (see my post above), just wondering.

The historian Peter Brown wrote a book titled "The Ransom of the Soul: Afterlife and Wealth in Early Western Christianity" describing well the development. Even though his study does only cover the years 200 - 700. Before the development of purgatory. But the development of linking one's standing in the other world with one's donations of money happened already during that early period. However, the intention was initially positive: to support the poor! The abuses of funds would have come later.

 

[FaithT]

The historian Peter Brown wrote a book titled "The Ransom of the Soul: Afterlife and Wealth in Early Western Christianity" describing well the development. Even though his study does only cover the years 200 - 700. Before the development of purgatory. But the development of linking one's standing in the other world with one's donations of money happened already during that early period. However, the intention was initially positive: to support the poor! The abuses of funds would have come later.

So when and how did the idea of purgatory begin? Who came up with it?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Early on Christians wondered what happened after death. Irenaeus wrote in "Against Heresies", "The preservation of our bodies is confirmed by the resurrection and ascension of Christ: the souls of the saints during the intermediate period are in a state of expectation of that time when they shall receive their perfect and consummated glory." As time went on, various church fathers wrote about this intermediate state. These include Cyprian, Chrysostom and Augustine. The Eastern church, as is our practice, just simply says that after death, those who are counted among the sheep, continue to grow in our relationship with God.

The Western church, however, kept developing doctrines for souls after death and thus purgatory was the answer.

 

[J_B_]

Early on Christians wondered what happened after death. Irenaeus wrote in "Against Heresies", "The preservation of our bodies is confirmed by the resurrection and ascension of Christ: the souls of the saints during the intermediate period are in a state of expectation of that time when they shall receive their perfect and consummated glory." As time went on, various church fathers wrote about this intermediate state. These include Cyprian, Chrysostom and Augustine. The Eastern church, as is our practice, just simply says that after death, those who are counted among the sheep, continue to grow in our relationship with God.

The Western church, however, kept developing doctrines for souls after death and thus purgatory was the answer.

Yeah, some mysteries are best left alone. Think of the the wonder of discovery we will have when we can sit with God and talk about it in the life to come.

I didn't start out in the Lutheran church, but came to it as a teenager. I've loved it ever since, but one thing I found distasteful were the aspersions hurled at the RCC (and the abundant amount Lutherans received from the RCC). It's not nearly as bad now, some 40 years later, but as a result, I didn't get a clear picture of the RCC (or the EO) until I began my history degree.

It is very illuminating to walk the historical path of the church and see how many of these ideas started off as valid questions and, often, were given perceptive answers. It was only by the tiniest baby steps - drip by drop, that things slowly went astray - and it's hard to find fault in those early nuances.

It made me realize - if I had been there, I would have accepted much of it. I wouldn't have been a stalwart for the faith. It also made me realize that when I roll my eyes at all the silly things those Byzantines argued about, it wasn't as trivial as my first impression concluded.

 

[Till Schilling]

So when and how did the idea of purgatory begin? Who came up with it?

It is difficult to put a date and name to it. It evolved. Hence my mention of the book by the historian Peter Brown.

As for the actual form of the doctrine as you know it today, it did not come about before the second millenium and was not finalized until the council of Trent.

We have to differentiate several aspects:

- the idea that the souls after death still have to undergo some sort of progress / cleansing. Not the souls of the evil ones - who go to hell - or the really saintly ones - who go directly and immediately to heaven - but the souls of the "normal" ones who believe but still sin. The ideas that the souls of those people - the majority - would have to undergo some cleansing or progress after death before they can join the saints in heaven, this idea came up really early. Definitely fourth century.

- the idea that the church on earth can help those souls in the intermediate state also came up early.

- the idea that rich people can and should use their money for example to create monestaries so that the monks can pray for them after their death came up in Gaul (France) in about 600

 

[FaithT]

It is difficult to put a date and name to it. It evolved. Hence my mention of the book by the historian Peter Brown.

As for the actual form of the doctrine as you know it today, it did not come about before the second millenium and was not finalized until the council of Trent.

We have to differentiate several aspects:

- the idea that the souls after death still have to undergo some sort of progress / cleansing. Not the souls of the evil ones - who go to hell - or the really saintly ones - who go directly and immediately to heaven - but the souls of the "normal" ones who believe but still sin. The ideas that the souls of those people - the majority - would have to undergo some cleansing or progress after death before they can join the saints in heaven, this idea came up really early. Definitely fourth century.

- the idea that the church on earth can help those souls in the intermediate state also came up early.

- the idea that rich people can and should use their money for example to create monestaries so that the monks can pray for them after their death came up in Gaul (France) in about 600

So is there really a purgatory or is it something invented by men?

 

[J_B_]

So is there really a purgatory or is it something invented by men?

It's an invention of man.

 

[FaithT]

It's an invention of man.

So the Catholics got it wrong?