Purgatory

FaithT

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As many of you already know, I come from a Catholic background and became Lutheran a couple years ago or so. Us Lutherans don’t believe that praying umpteen Hail Mary’s on a set of beads is going to lessen our time in purgatory and get us to heaven faster.
We don’t even believe in purgatory (correct me if I’m wrong).
So where did this Catholic practice of doing things like going to confession, praying the rosary, having Mass said for people Etc. come from, anyway, and why does the CC do these things and we don’t?
 

GreekOrthodox

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FYI, confession is still supposed to be practiced by Lutherans. This is from Luther's Small Catechism:

What is Confession?
Confession consists of two parts: one, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the pastor or confessor as from God himself, and in no way doubt, but firmly believe that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

What sins should we confess?
Before God we should acknowledge ourselves guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know about, as we do in the Lord’s Prayer. But before the pastor or confessor we should acknowledge those sins only which we know and feel in our hearts.

Which are these?
Here consider your own situation according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, employer, employee; whether you have been disobedient, dishonest, lazy; whether you have injured anyone by word or deed; whether you have stolen, neglected, wasted anything, or done any harm.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Great questions!

In the Lutheran Church, we recognise 2 Sacraments; Baptism and the Eucharist. However, we also sometimes talk about a third Sacrament, Holy Absolution. This is still retained in the Lutheran Church, as the Office of the Keys, the power to forgive or retain sins, belongs to the whole Christian Church. This is why we confess our sins in our services, and if anyone is burdened by sins, they are free to confess them privately to their Pastor, and the Pastor will absolve them and comfort them with the Gospel.

We rightly reject the notion of Purgatory. It's not found in the Bible, nor in the Early Church. It's a late development born out of a series of errors, and it's counter to the Gospel, for, in Christ, all our sins are paid for in full. We do not, nor cannot, pay for our own sins. Not even in part. So, needless to say, Mass for the dead - Prayers and sacrifice made for people to shorten their time in Purgatory - is very problematic. It's a bit of a long walk to explain how Purgatory developed, but it comes out of a wrong understanding of Sin and Justification.

It's not common, but some Lutherans use a kind of rosary, only it doesn't include any prayers to Mary or saints. It's simply used as a tool or reminder to be diligent in prayer. I don't use it myself, but I can recognise it as an adiaphoron - something neither commanded nor forbidden by Scriptures.

The reason why the Roman Catholic Church retain these doctrines and practices has to do with where we get our authority from. Perhaps it's helpful with a simple comparison:

Authority in the Roman Catholic Church: The Roman Catholic Church, which includes Scriptures, Tradition, and the Pope. Given the succession of the Papal office, their Tradition is somewhat progressive (in contrast to Eastern Orthodox who also holds to Scriptures and Tradition, but which ended with the Ecumenical Councils in 787. So their Tradition is somewhat fixed).

Authority in the Lutheran Church: Scriptures alone. Though we still value Church history and tradition.
 
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FaithT

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FYI, confession is still supposed to be practiced by Lutherans. This is from Luther's Small Catechism:

What is Confession?
Confession consists of two parts: one, that we confess our sins; the other, that we receive absolution, or forgiveness, from the pastor or confessor as from God himself, and in no way doubt, but firmly believe that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

What sins should we confess?
Before God we should acknowledge ourselves guilty of all sins, even of those which we do not know about, as we do in the Lord’s Prayer. But before the pastor or confessor we should acknowledge those sins only which we know and feel in our hearts.

Which are these?
Here consider your own situation according to the Ten Commandments, whether you are a father, mother, son, daughter, employer, employee; whether you have been disobedient, dishonest, lazy; whether you have injured anyone by word or deed; whether you have stolen, neglected, wasted anything, or done any harm.
I apologize....I know Lutherans go to confession,I’ve done so myself. From what I’ve heard,few people do soon my church, including me.
But what I meant to say was where the idea of confession will lessen ones’ time in purgatory.
 
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FaithT

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Great questions!

In the Lutheran Church, we recognise 2 Sacraments; Baptism and the Eucharist. However, we also sometimes talk about a third Sacrament, Holy Absolution. This is still retained in the Lutheran Church, as the Office of the Keys, the power to forgive or retain sins, belongs to the whole Christian Church. This is why we confess our sins in our services, and if anyone is burdened by sins, they are free to confess them privately to their Pastor, and the Pastor will absolve them and comfort them with the Gospel.

We rightly reject the notion of Purgatory. It's not found in the Bible, nor in the Early Church. It's a late development born out of a series of errors, and it's counter to the Gospel, for, in Christ, all our sins are paid for in full. We do not, nor cannot, pay for our own sins. Not even in part. So, needless to say, Mass for the dead - Prayers and sacrifice made for people to shorten their time in Purgatory - is very problematic. It's a bit of a long walk to explain how Purgatory developed, but it comes out of a wrong understanding of Sin and Justification.

It's not common, but some Lutherans use a kind of rosary, only it doesn't include any prayers to Mary or saints. It's simply used as a tool or reminder to be diligent in prayer. I don't use it myself, but I can recognise it as an adiaphoron - something neither commanded nor forbidden by Scriptures.

The reason why the Roman Catholic Church retain these doctrines and practices has to do with where we get our authority from. Perhaps it's helpful with a simple comparison:

Authority in the Roman Catholic Church: The Roman Catholic Church, which includes Scriptures, Tradition, and the Pope. Given the succession of the Papal office, their Tradition is somewhat progressive (in contrast to Eastern Orthodox who also holds to Scriptures and Tradition, but which ended with the Ecumenical Councils in 787. So their Tradition is somewhat fixed).

Authority in the Lutheran Church: Scriptures alone. Though we still value Church history and tradition.
Once when I was Catholic I confessed something and as part of my absolution I had to have x number of Masses said for a certain someone. If I remember correctly, I had to pay for them.
 
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FaithT

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Its extra biblical, I don't know why they started it but it was something Luther called out as a way of the CC to boost their coffers as people could pay their way out of it.
Do you mean the CC started it as a way to make money? If so, what’s your source? I’m not doubting you (see my post above), just wondering.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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The honest question is what was the state of the soul with unconfessed sins upon death, hence the deathbed confession and administration of last rites. The official council in the West that described purgatory was the Second Council of Lyon in 1274.
 
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FaithT

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The honest question is what was the state of the soul with unconfessed sins upon death, hence the deathbed confession and administration of last rites. The official council in the West that described purgatory was the Second Council of Lyon in 1274.
And Lutherans don’t give Last Rites, correct? Do they do anything if a member of their church is dying? For example, if I were to become deathly ill, would my pastor take an emergency call and come be by my side to say prayers over me, like a priest?
 
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Once when I was Catholic I confessed something and as part of my absolution I had to have x number of Masses said for a certain someone. If I remember correctly, I had to pay for them.

Hmm, yeah, in the Roman system there is the concept of Penance (the 4th of 7 Sacraments), whereupon confession, the priest will give you works of satisfaction to do, so that you can pay back for your sin or merit forgiveness. In the Lutheran Church, it's simply that whoever is contrite and burdened by sin will receive the free forgiveness of sins, because that's exactly what Christ gives us.
 
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Daniel9v9

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And Lutherans don’t give Last Rites, correct? Do they do anything if a member of their church is dying? For example, if I were to become deathly ill, would my pastor take an emergency call and come be by my side to say prayers over me, like a priest?

I'm not sure we'd call it Last Rites, but Lutheran Pastors certainly do and have an obligation to care for their congregation, and part of this is visiting the sick at the hospital, people homebound, and members on their death bed, where we pray, can have Confession and Absolution, and the Eucharist.
 
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FaithT

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Hmm, yeah, in the Roman system there is the concept of Penance (the 4th of 7 Sacraments), whereupon confession, the priest will give you works of satisfaction to do, so that you can pay back for your sin or merit forgiveness. In the Lutheran Church, it's simply that whoever is contrite and burdened by sin will receive the free forgiveness of sins, because that's exactly what Christ gives us.
I’d usually have to say a combination of prayers - Our Father, Hail Mary and or Glory Be. I don’t see how reciting rote, memorized prayers that I’ve said literally hundreds (thousands?) of times will save me from Hell.
 
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FaithT

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I'm not sure we'd call it Last Rites, but Lutheran Pastors certainly do and have an obligation to care for their congregation, and part of this is visiting the sick at the hospital, people homebound, and members on their death bed, where we pray, can have Confession and Absolution, and the Eucharist.
That’s good to read.
 
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FaithT

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I'm not sure we'd call it Last Rites, but Lutheran Pastors certainly do and have an obligation to care for their congregation, and part of this is visiting the sick at the hospital, people homebound, and members on their death bed, where we pray, can have Confession and Absolution, and the Eucharist.
So if Heaven forbid, an emergency would arise in the middle of the night I can feel free to call him? Their website has an after hours emergency number.
 
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Daniel9v9

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I’d usually have to say a combination of prayers - Our Father, Hail Mary and or Glory Be. I don’t see how reciting rote, memorized prayers that I’ve said literally hundreds (thousands?) of times will save me from Hell.

Well, prayer is good and effective! But (A) not prayer in a mechanical way, as a work of satisfaction. That's really the opposite of prayer, for this becomes trusting in our own work. And (B) there is no command, promise, or example of praying to saints. Prayer in the Bible is always an act of worship. So, no, you're quite right! It can't shorten your time in Purgatory or deliver you in that way.

So if Heaven forbid, an emergency would arise in the middle of the night I can feel free to call him? Their website has an after hours emergency number.

Absolutely! If there is a crisis, night or day, by God's grace, your Pastor is there for you.
 
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FaithT

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Well, prayer is good and effective! But (A) not prayer in a mechanical way, as a work of satisfaction. That's really the opposite of prayer, for this becomes trusting in our own work. And (B) there is no command, promise, or example of praying to saints. Prayer in the Bible is always an act of worship. So, no, you're quite right! It can't shorten your time in Purgatory or deliver you in that way.



Absolutely! If there is a crisis, night or day, by God's grace, your Pastor is there for you.
Where did the CC come up with praying to Saints, and especially Mary?
 
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Heavenhome

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Do you mean the CC started it as a way to make money? If so, what’s your source? I’m not doubting you (see my post above), just wondering.

A very good general source to begin with is the book
Protestants and Catholics, Do they now agree by John Ankerberg and John Weldon.
This sets out most of what you asked about in a very clear way.

Fifty Years in the Church of Rome by Father Charles Chiniquy ( he was a Catholic priest in Canada in the 1800's) this book was written in 1878 and still available. It is a heavy read but very good.

Another is A woman rides the beast by Walter Martin.

There are many others but my ultimate source is the Bible.
Look for the subjects you are wondering about and see what the Bible says on the subject, if its not there, its not necessary.
God has told us all we need to know in there anything extra is traditions of man.
 
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Where did the CC come up with praying to Saints, and especially Mary?

I have a Catholic friend who will sometimes tell me to pray the rosary or pray to Mary. I have to keep telling her, awkwardly, that Lutherans don’t pray to Mary.

The Church started to celebrate and remember the saints quite early in history, but prayers to Mary, saints, and angels, grew out of that later. It really peaked in the middle ages. If we read the Apostolic Fathers, which is essentially the second and third generation after the Apostles (and maybe even contemporary with them!), there's no mention at all of prayer to or invocation of the saints. It's not in the Bible, nor in the Early Church.

This is a topic our church cover in our Lutheran Confessions. It's fairly short and you can read it here:
Article XXI. Of the Worship of the Saints | Book of Concord

(And a more detailed response in the Apology: Art. XXI (IX): Of the Invocation of Saints | Book of Concord)

In short, though, we don't have to be shy about not praying to Mary. We can and should remember and honour her as the Mother of our Lord and because of her great example for us in the faith, but the Bible does not command or encourage us to pray to her. It does not make the promise that she can receive our prayers. Nor does it give us the example that we ought to pray to her. The Bible, as well as the earliest Church Fathers, tell us that Christ is our only Mediator, and that we are only to pray to God, because prayer is an act of worship.

The Roman Catholic Church does distinguish between veneration of Mary (Hyperdulia), and veneration of saints and angels (Dulia), and worship of God (Latria). We understand these three distinctions, but we're saying they're false because they're not found in Scriptures, and that the practice amounts to worship. Basically, whoever or whatever we turn to for our good - whatever we ultimately trust in - that is our God. So we should love, fear, and trust in God above all things.
 
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