Purgatory

[FaithT]

Is it safe for me to say that LCMS don’t believe in purgatory? Where and when did the Catholic Church start that belief? Any other churches believe in purgatory?

 

[TKA_TN]

LCMS does not believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is a Catholic thing. The Orthodox believe in some form of it, but don't believe they've defined it.

 

[PloverWing]

Belief in purgatory developed gradually during the Middle Ages, as it became increasingly clear that there was going to be a significant period of time between Christ's first and second comings, and Christians began to speculate about the state of the dead during this intermediate period, as we wait for Christ's return and the Final Judgment.

In addition to Catholics, some Anglicans believe in Purgatory (the 39 Articles notwithstanding). You might consider asking your question in a group like Traditional Theology, if you're interested in the beliefs of non-Lutheran Christians.

 

[FaithT]

LCMS does not believe in Purgatory. Purgatory is a Catholic thing. The Orthodox believe in some form of it, but don't believe they've defined it.

So, Catholics believe one can earn indulgences in order to shorten their time or a loved one’s time in purgatory but Lutherans believe Jesus forgave our sins on the cross and there’s no purgatory, right?
Since we, as Lutherans, don’t usually go to confession do we just pray directly to God for forgiveness of sins, rather than go to a third party, like a priest?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is it safe for me to say that LCMS don’t believe in purgatory? Where and when did the Catholic Church start that belief? Any other churches believe in purgatory?

According to the RCC catechism the doctrine of purgatory was first formulated at the council of Florence in 1439AD then later ratified at the council of Trent in 1565. It is my understanding that the EOC’s position is that we do not undergo a purification of sin but it may be possible that we may undergo a purification of our sinful nature. The EOC does not believe in purgatory as a means of atonement for sin.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Lutherans believe Jesus forgave our sins on the cross and there’s no purgatory

Without intending to run afoul of what I imagine this forum's rules are, I think you may not understand how Catholics view Purgatory.

 

[Basil the Great]

The Orthodox will insist that they do not believe in Purgatory. They do strongly favor prayers for the dead, but they do not pretend to know exactly how or to what extent said prayers assist the deceased. Most Orthodox seen to believe that prayers for those now destined for Hell will at least alleviate some of their sufferings and some Orthodox, probably a minority, believe that it is possible that prayers for those now in a state of conditional Hell might be able to move a few of those away from Hell and eventually toward Heaven. This belief is based upon the Orthodox understanding that until Jesus returns, souls only experience a foretaste of Heaven and a foretaste of Hell, and that therefore, the fate of souls might not be finalized until the Second Coming.

 

[FaithT]

According to the RCC catechism the doctrine of purgatory was first formulated at the council of Florence in 1439AD then later ratified at the council of Trent in 1565. It is my understanding that the EOC’s position is that we do not undergo a purification of sin but it may be possible that we may undergo a purification of our sinful nature. The EOC does not believe in purgatory as a means of atonement for sin.

What’s EOC?

 

[FaithT]

Without intending to run afoul of what I imagine this forum's rules are, I think you may not understand how Catholics view Purgatory.

I was a Catholic and admit that I still know little about a Purgatory. I was poorly catechized.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What’s EOC?

Eastern Orthodox Church

 

[FaithT]

Eastern Orthodox Church

Thanks

 

[Basil the Great]

I was a Catholic and admit that I still know little about a Purgatory. I was poorly catechized.

That is sad and hard to imagine, but I have heard from others that such has been the case.

 

[FaithT]

That is sad and hard to imagine, but I have heard from others that such has been the case.

Our Catholic school didn’t have Catechism, we had Religion Class. I don’t remember what was taught but it wasn’t the basics of Catholicism. I didn’t even know what indulgences were until maybe a year ago or less. I’d heard the word often, but didn’t know what they were.

 

[Basil the Great]

Our Catholic school didn’t have Catechism, we had Religion Class. I don’t remember what was taught but it wasn’t the basics of Catholicism. I didn’t even know what indulgences were until maybe a year ago or less. I’d heard the word often, but didn’t know what they were.

Strangely enough, while doing some research on indulgences a few years ago, I did read that a century or two ago a small number of Eastern Orthodox Bishops did offer indulgences. I believe this was done in the Greek Orthodox Church, but it could have been a different branch of the EOC. Anyway, this did not last too long and posters on the EOC forum here assured me that the practice was done in error and never should have taken place.

 

[PloverWing]

Since we, as Lutherans, don’t usually go to confession do we just pray directly to God for forgiveness of sins, rather than go to a third party, like a priest?

My memory of worshipping with Lutherans is that confession and absolution were part of the normal Sunday service. It's a confession that the group recites together, instead of individual confession, but it is a part of regular worship. (This memory is of an LCMS church 40 years ago, so I obviously invite correction if my memory is flawed or doesn't represent all branches of Lutheranism.)

 

[Resha Caner]

My memory of worshipping with Lutherans is that confession and absolution were part of the normal Sunday service. It's a confession that the group recites together, instead of individual confession, but it is a part of regular worship. (This memory is of an LCMS church 40 years ago, so I obviously invite correction if my memory is flawed or doesn't represent all branches of Lutheranism.)

I was hoping @ViaCrucis would wander by, as he is better equipped for a question like this than I am.

However, @PloverWing is correct. Confession is done corporately at each church service. So, every time you attend church you will be reassured of forgiveness. If you want private confession, the Pastor will do that, and it happens on a regular basis, so it's nothing to be shy about. It's just not as openly visible in a Lutheran church.

I recall Ryan Reeves having something on the history of Purgatory, so I'll review it and get back to you. But in essence, it was something that developed very gradually. That is typical. At first an idea will seem OK, and it's only after 100 years (or 1000) that you realize how far you've drifted. Reeves did a really good job explaining it and pinpointing the subtle steps along the path.

So, bottom line, Lutherans don't believe in Purgatory. In fact, the issue of Indulgences was what originally set Luther off. What seems to have been forgotten (by both Lutherans and Catholics) was that Luther's objections didn't come from nowhere. There were others calling for reform around that time - others who disagreed with the same things he did. And these people, like Luther, were not outsiders but highly educated members of the Catholic clergy.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, Catholics believe one can earn indulgences in order to shorten their time or a loved one’s time in purgatory but Lutherans believe Jesus forgave our sins on the cross and there’s no purgatory, right?
Since we, as Lutherans, don’t usually go to confession do we just pray directly to God for forgiveness of sins, rather than go to a third party, like a priest?

Private confession is available for those who desire it. It's like Resha Caner mentions above, it's not very visible in the Lutheran tradition, but it's there.

It's not about going through a "third party", however. It's about the power and efficacy of God's Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament. When the pastor pronounces forgiveness of sins, either in the public confession of sins or in private confession, he is speaking in persona Christi (in the person of Christ), as Christ Himself is the One who told His apostles, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them" (John 20:23). This is properly the authority given to the whole Church, but for good order the Church has always called and ordained pastors to be ministers of Word and Sacrament--and as such they are the ones who exercise the Office of the Keys for the good of all the Faithful. And so this treasure of Confession and Absolution is a gift from Christ to us, that we might hear the bold proclamation of the forgiveness of our sins. We might be well to remember our Lord's statement, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36).

It is God who mediates His grace through these precious gifts and means of His grace, that we might be fed and nourished by His word, sustained by His Spirit, receive faith, and have life in Christ Jesus our Lord. He does all these things for us, out of His great love toward us. And it is because of His great love toward us, which He showers upon us through such Means, that we can be confident that we belong to Him, for we are God's people, found in Christ, filled with the Spirit, hearing His word, baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and therefore sealed by the indelible seal of God's grace. Gathered around His Table, confessing our sins, truly forgiven, and sent out into the world as a Christian people with the Gospel on our lips and good works for our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[FaithT]

Private confession is available for those who desire it. It's like Resha Caner mentions above, it's not very visible in the Lutheran tradition, but it's there.

It's not about going through a "third party", however. It's about the power and efficacy of God's Means of Grace in Word and Sacrament. When the pastor pronounces forgiveness of sins, either in the public confession of sins or in private confession, he is speaking in persona Christi (in the person of Christ), as Christ Himself is the One who told His apostles, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them" (John 20:23). This is properly the authority given to the whole Church, but for good order the Church has always called and ordained pastors to be ministers of Word and Sacrament--and as such they are the ones who exercise the Office of the Keys for the good of all the Faithful. And so this treasure of Confession and Absolution is a gift from Christ to us, that we might hear the bold proclamation of the forgiveness of our sins. We might be well to remember our Lord's statement, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36).

It is God who mediates His grace through these precious gifts and means of His grace, that we might be fed and nourished by His word, sustained by His Spirit, receive faith, and have life in Christ Jesus our Lord. He does all these things for us, out of His great love toward us. And it is because of His great love toward us, which He showers upon us through such Means, that we can be confident that we belong to Him, for we are God's people, found in Christ, filled with the Spirit, hearing His word, baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and therefore sealed by the indelible seal of God's grace. Gathered around His Table, confessing our sins, truly forgiven, and sent out into the world as a Christian people with the Gospel on our lips and good works for our neighbor.

-CryptoLutheran

My pastor did once say that he wishes more people would come to him for confession. From what I can see virtually no one does.

 

[twin.spin]

Is it safe for me to say that LCMS don’t believe in purgatory? Where and when did the Catholic Church start that belief? Any other churches believe in purgatory?

Mormonism has it own version of purgatory concept along with it's method for one to leave it should one wasn't good enough while alive to avoid it.

 

[TKA_TN]

Mormonism has it own version of purgatory concept along with it's method for one to leave it should one wasn't good enough while alive to avoid it.

Mormons have their own versions of a lot of things.