Purgatory!

[sonshine234]

Oh. The Methodist Church is Prima Scriptura to. I don't have a problem with it. But Anglicans are Protestant.

I am not Protestant this has been discussed before.

 

[SeventhValley]

No doubt it is moot for you but for me that book is inspired scripture and hence authoritative.

Interestingly enough Athanasius of Alexandria agreed with Jerome that they are not for doctrine.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Interestingly enough Athanasius of Alexandria agreed with Jerome that they are not for doctrine.

Why is that interesting?

The Church explicitly states that the whole canon is inspired by God and useful for doctrine (2 Tom 3:16-17).

 

[BobRyan]

Don't most of us agree that sacred scripture is "profitable for doctrine" and inspired? I know that I do.

I certainly affirm that - but I find that members of the RCC often object to scripture used as a test of doctrine "sola scriptura" as in what we see in Acts 17:11

My Church does too.

That would be welcomed.

But what's that got to do with this thread? Purgatory is implied by scripture's encouragement to pray for the dead;

1. There is no scripture calling for us to pray for the dead.

2. Even the texts that are not scripture and yet mention that phrase - say it has no benefit apart from the resurrection.

3. And those non-Bible documents say that the dead are "asleep" not in "torment" not in "heavenly bliss".

2 Maccabees 12:38-45 KJV

39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
​

So then the "text" says they were "Slain" for their sin - as a righteous judgment of God. And that the Law forbade Jews to serve, to worship, to wear as a devotee - the pagan gods on their person - as they were doing.

A mortal sin even by Catholic standards.




Yet the "inference" that some have tried to "insert" -- to "read into the story" above is that the "prayers offered for the dead and the sin offering that was offered for them was reconciling them to God after they died" and before they are raised so as to get them out of the non-mentioned torment of the non-mentioned purgatory for the dead as a non-mentioned benefit to realized before the resurrection despite the claim in the text that no benefit was realized apart from the resurrection.

.

And of course - that is precisely what purgatory and prayers for the dead and offering the mass for their benefit is about.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

BobRyan, why did you doctor the quote from 2 Maccabees? It ought to say

2 Maccabees 12:38-45 KJV

(38) So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
(39) And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
(40) Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
(41) All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
(42) Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
(43) And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
(44) For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
(45) And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.​

You left out verse 38 despite your quote claiming to include it and your translation was not the KJV despite your claim that it was KJV.

2 Maccabees 12:38-45 KJV (NOT really the KJV)

38 missing verse
39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. (Missing part of the verse ought to read: it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. )
​

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan, why did you doctor the quote from 2 Maccabees?

I quoted directly from Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

2 Macc 12

39 And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Did you want vs 1-38 as well??

Did you want to emphasize the point that Judas was keeping the Sabbath???


38 So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the place.
in Christ,

Bob

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Back to thread subject. If we have to somehow pay for our sins after we die, then which of our sins did Jesus die for on the cross? Before you answer, remember He died over 2,000 years ago, so any sins we have committed, do commit or will commit are all in the future, from the perspective of the cross. According to Scripture, Jesus bore our sins, nailing them to the cross once and for all (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18). How can we atone for any of our sins after our death, if Jesus bore our sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all?

"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-6)

 

[MoreCoffee]

I quoted directly from Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)...

I see, but you said it was from the KJV and you said you were quoting verses 38-45 but you didn't, you left out verse 38 and your source ought to have gone to verse 46 since 45 in the KJV includes both 45 and 46 from the DRB.

The verse numbering in the DRB differs slightly from that of the KJV. Here is the DRB quote in full.

2 Maccabees 12:38-46 DRB

(38) So Judas having gathered together his army, came into the city Odollam: and when the seventh day came, they purified themselves according to the custom, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
(39) And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers.
(40) And they found under the coats of the slain, some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.
(41) Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.
(42) And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.
(43) And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.
(44) (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
(45) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
(46) It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.​

 

[MoreCoffee]

Back to thread subject. If we have to somehow pay for our sins after we die, then which of our sins did Jesus die for on the cross? Before you answer, remember He died over 2,000 years ago, so any sins we have committed, do commit or will commit are all in the future, from the perspective of the cross. According to Scripture, Jesus bore our sins, nailing them to the cross once and for all (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18). How can we atone for any of our sins after our death, if Jesus bore our sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all?

"But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-6)

2 Maccabees 12:45 (KJV) tells us that prayer for the dead so that their sins may be atoned for is a good thing. And Jesus indicated that the unforgiveable sin cannot be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Catholics take the positive teaching of the passage from Maccabees together with the negative statement of the Lord as encouragement to pray for the souls of those who have died but were not in mortal sin.

Catholics are very careful in handling the scriptures. Jesus' death is the one and only full and complete atonement for sins. His sacrifice is never to be repeated because it suffices super-abundantly for the sins of the whole world. So please be assured that Catholics both teach and believe that Christ's atoning work is complete and that it suffices for us all.

II. Christ’s Redemptive Death in God’s Plan of Salvation

“Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God”

599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: “This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.”(Acts 2:23) This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.(Acts 3:13)

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”(Acts 4:27-28; cf. Ps 2:1-2) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.(Mt 26:54; Jn 18:36; 19:11; Acts 3:17-18)​

“He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures”

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.(Isa 53:11; cf. 53:12; Jn 8:34-36; Acts 3:14) Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received,” St. Paul professes that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.”(1 Cor 15:3; cf. also Acts 3:18; 7:52; 13:29; 26:22-23) In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfils Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.(Isa 53:7-8 and Acts 8:32-35) Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.(Mt 20:28) After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.(Lk 24:25-27, 44-45)​

“For our sake God made him to be sin”

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.”(1 Pet 1:18-20) Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.(Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:56) By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”(2 Cor 5:21; cf. Phil 2:7; Rom 8:3)

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.(Cf. Jn 8:46) But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”(Mk 15:34; Ps 22:2; cf. Jn 8:29) Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”(Rom 8:32, 5:10)​

God takes the initiative of universal redeeming love

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.”(1 Jn 4:10; 4:19) God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”(Rom 5:8)

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”(Mt 18:14) He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.(Mt 20:28; cf. Rom 5:18-19) The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”(Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; 1 Jn 2:2)​

I hope the above quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church will help you understand what Catholics teach and believe about Jesus' atoning death.

 

[barryatlake]

DiligentlySeekingGod, South Bound, who is it that takes Scripture out of context, certainly not the "Church" that compiled the Canonical Books found in all of our NT.
Christian history, including secular, Jewish and even many Protestant sources attest to this true fact that it was the early Bishops of His Catholic / Apostolic Church that gave us the "Canon List" of Books that we find in "all'' of our NT along with a "Table Of Contents ". In order for those Books, from a myriad of many books, to be accepted as Canonical by those bishops they would have had to know the correct interpretation, if anybody believes otherwise, then they can't honestly believe that all the books that compile our Holy Bibles are the correct books.
I group many of you non-Catholics much like the emperor without any clothes, all proclaiming yourselves as Bible scholars, while rarely finding any non- Catholic sect agreeing on teachings of Holy Scripture, while all of you attempting to project yourselves as Bible scholars clothed in Scripture trying to convince the rest of us that you know it all - when in truth most of your knowledge of Scripture is rather naked.

 

[Erose]

Interestingly enough Athanasius of Alexandria agreed with Jerome that they are not for doctrine.

Also it should be remembered to, that the liturgical biblical canon of Alexandria was not identical to the Protestant one either. Their OT included Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremiah, so why aren't these included in your canon?

 

[Albion]

I am not Protestant this has been discussed before.

Well, your church insists that it is neither Anglican nor Roman Catholic, so I assume from that that you're expressing your own view of how you'd like to be seen. Glad we've cleared that up.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

DiligentlySeekingGod, South Bound, who is it that takes Scripture out of context, certainly not the "Church" that compiled the Canonical Books found in all of our NT.
Christian history, including secular, Jewish and even many Protestant sources attest to this true fact that it was the early Bishops of His Catholic / Apostolic Church that gave us the "Canon List" of Books that we find in "all'' of our NT along with a "Table Of Contents ". In order for those Books, from a myriad of many books, to be accepted as Canonical by those bishops they would have had to know the correct interpretation, if anybody believes otherwise, then they can't honestly believe that all the books that compile our Holy Bibles are the correct books.
I group many of you non-Catholics much like the emperor without any clothes, all proclaiming yourselves as Bible scholars, while rarely finding any non- Catholic sect agreeing on teachings of Holy Scripture, while all of you attempting to project yourselves as Bible scholars clothed in Scripture trying to convince the rest of us that you know it all - when in truth most of your knowledge of Scripture is rather naked.

Excuse me, but I never once declared myself a Bible scholar nor did I once declare to everyone that I know it all. So, therefore, you are bearing false witness against me, and in doing so, you have transgressed the Ninth Commandment - " You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" (Exodus 20:16). You have also accused me of taking Scripture out of context. I'm asking you to specifically present proof of this and back up your accusation or otherwise, you are again bearing false witness against me. I await your response.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

2 Maccabees 12:45 (KJV) tells us that prayer for the dead so that their sins may be atoned for is a good thing. And Jesus indicated that the unforgiveable sin cannot be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Catholics take the positive teaching of the passage from Maccabees together with the negative statement of the Lord as encouragement to pray for the souls of those who have died but were not in mortal sin.

Catholics are very careful in handling the scriptures. Jesus' death is the one and only full and complete atonement for sins. His sacrifice is never to be repeated because it suffices super-abundantly for the sins of the whole world. So please be assured that Catholics both teach and believe that Christ's atoning work is complete and that it suffices for us all.

II. Christ’s Redemptive Death in God’s Plan of Salvation

“Jesus handed over according to the definite plan of God”

599 Jesus’ violent death was not the result of chance in an unfortunate coincidence of circumstances, but is part of the mystery of God’s plan, as St. Peter explains to the Jews of Jerusalem in his first sermon on Pentecost: “This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God.”(Acts 2:23) This Biblical language does not mean that those who handed him over were merely passive players in a scenario written in advance by God.(Acts 3:13)

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination,” he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: “In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.”(Acts 4:27-28; cf. Ps 2:1-2) For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.(Mt 26:54; Jn 18:36; 19:11; Acts 3:17-18)​

“He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures”

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.(Isa 53:11; cf. 53:12; Jn 8:34-36; Acts 3:14) Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received,” St. Paul professes that “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures.”(1 Cor 15:3; cf. also Acts 3:18; 7:52; 13:29; 26:22-23) In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfils Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.(Isa 53:7-8 and Acts 8:32-35) Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.(Mt 20:28) After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.(Lk 24:25-27, 44-45)​

“For our sake God made him to be sin”

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: “You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers... with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.”(1 Pet 1:18-20) Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.(Rom 5:12; 1 Cor 15:56) By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God “made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”(2 Cor 5:21; cf. Phil 2:7; Rom 8:3)

603 Jesus did not experience reprobation as if he himself had sinned.(Cf. Jn 8:46) But in the redeeming love that always united him to the Father, he assumed us in the state of our waywardness of sin, to the point that he could say in our name from the cross: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”(Mk 15:34; Ps 22:2; cf. Jn 8:29) Having thus established him in solidarity with us sinners, God “did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all,” so that we might be “reconciled to God by the death of his Son.”(Rom 8:32, 5:10)​

God takes the initiative of universal redeeming love

604 By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.”(1 Jn 4:10; 4:19) God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”(Rom 5:8)

605 At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”(Mt 18:14) He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us.(Mt 20:28; cf. Rom 5:18-19) The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”(Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; 1 Jn 2:2)​

I hope the above quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church will help you understand what Catholics teach and believe about Jesus' atoning death.

MoreCoffee,

To be honest, I find your answer difficult to accept, since I don't uphold to the extra biblical books in your Catholic Bible. I mean no offense to you. Please know that I don't consider these extra biblical books to have an divine authority of God whatsoever. Actually, I was looking for more of a direct answer from you personally. So, I ask my questions again, if we have to somehow pay for our sins after we die, then which of our sins did Jesus die for on the cross? Before you answer, remember He died over 2,000 years ago, so any sins we have committed, do commit or will commit are all in the future, from the perspective of the cross.

According to Scripture, Jesus bore our sins, nailing them to the cross once and for all (Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18). How can we atone for any of our sins after our death, if Jesus bore our sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all? Furthermore, according to Scripture, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins (Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10). Moreover, it is written in Scripture that His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin (Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24). If we have to atone for our sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

And as far as praying for the dead or to the dead, Scripture warns us to have nothing to do with trying to speak with the dead. It is written in Deuteronomy 18:10-12 that God will drive out those who call up the dead. And it is also written in Leviticus 19:31 and in Leviticus 20:27 that meeting with a medium or spiritist defiles the one who came and the punishment for being a medium or spiritist was death. Moreover, it is written in Hebrews 9:27, “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.”

 

[MoreCoffee]

MoreCoffee,

To be honest, I find your answer difficult to accept, since I don't uphold to the extra biblical books in your Catholic Bible. ...

Your stated starting position is to reject sacred scripture passages that are directly relevant to the topic of purgatory so I cannot see what value there is in asking me why I believe what the Catholic Church teaches. You've made it clear that you will not accept the reasons that I will give; nevertheless I commend to you the information contained in post #322.