To simplify, purgatory is a state or condition of cleansing, that occurs after the death of someone who is saved and yet is not pure enough to enter God's presence. This state of cleansing is temporal.
And how do you reconcile this with 1 John 1:7, which says "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and
the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
Do you not believe the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin? If so, then what's left to be cleansed? If not, why not?
1) Temporal punishment due to sin: When Christ died upon the cross for us, He took away from us the eternal punishment due to our sin, but He did not take away the temporal punishment due to our sin.
Where does the Bible ever say there is temporal punishment for sin? In all of the passages where we see that Jesus is the propitiation for our sin, why doesn't the Bible, out of all of those verses, ever make the distinction between those eternal punishment and temporal punishment?
This is best illustrated in 2nd Samuel:
2 Sam 12: [13] And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. [14] Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.
In this passage, God saved David from permanent death, but not from temporal punishment due to his sin. Even though God forgave David, David's son was going to die.
And you believe this is evidence of Purgatory? Wow! Talk about exegesis!
How on Earth did you get the idea that this verse is about Purgatory? The death of David's son wasn't a punishment, but a consequence of sin.
Also, would you mind explaining how this passage is relevant, since, under the Old Covenant, people were not born again, but merely had their sins "covered" and the Holy Spirit did not regenerate or indwell believers?
We also find evidence of this in Hebrews 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaks to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loves, he chastises; and he scourges every son whom he receives. [7] Persevere under discipline. God deals with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. [11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seems not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.
Obviously God is a just God, so He is not going to chastise or scourge those that don't deserve it. So one can safely assume that someone that is being chastised by God has done something that God doesn't like, i.e. sin.
Again, where is Purgatory anywhere in this passage?
Another passage to look at is: Mat 5: [25] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. [26] Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing. In this passage we see that there is a requirement for sin that is not eternal.
Please cite the whole passage. When taken in context, the passage has nothing to do with Purgatory, but is about anger.
We also see it here: Matt 18: [31] Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. [32] Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: [33] Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? [34] And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. [35] So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
You realize this is a parable, right? And not about purgatory?
Rev 21: [27] There shall not enter into it anything defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.
We agree that nothing defiled or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie shall enter into Heaven. The problem is that the Bible tells us that we have Christ's righteousness imputed to us.
Heb 12: [14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.
Agreed. We are made holy by Christ, not by expiating our sin in Purgatory.
Matt 5: [8] Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.
And our hearts have been cleansed by Christ.
Jesus also commands us to: [48] Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]
Hebrews 10:14 tells us we have been perfected.
1 Cor 3: [11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [16] Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.
Verse 13 is very explicit that Paul is talking about the day of the Lord which is our own meeting with our Judge after our deaths. In this passage the man that builds upon Christ's foundation, has to be a Christian for an atheist does not build upon an internal foundation of Christ. Those works that he has built up are revealed by fire. Verse 14 outlines those whose works remain (i.e. works of righteousness) and he gets his reward (heaven). In verse 15, some of the works of the Christian are not works of righteousness and they burn. He suffers loss, but in the end he is saved. This refers to the those enduring purgatory. Then you have those Christians in verse 17, who have violated themselves through sin and those God will destroy. So here we see the rewards/punishments of heaven (14), purgatory (15), and hell (17).
Actually, this passage has nothing to do with Purgatory, but is speaking of the Bema Seat Judgment.
Where do you get the idea that this "fire" is in any way related to something that could be called "satispassio", as Rome does?
Purgatory (according to Rome) is for those who are headed to heaven: they died in a state of grace. The fire of purgatory (whether taken literally over time, as Rome obviously indicated for centuries on end, or now metaphorically, as the kinder, gentler Rome seems to indicate) is meant to cleanse away the temporal punishments of sins (again, according to Rome).
There is nothing in this passage about temporal punishments. Besides, there is only one result of the testing in purgatory: everyone ends up in heaven. But there are two results of the testing spoken of here: there are those whose works remain, and they receive a reward. And there are those who works are burned up, but they are saved anyway.
So how does one get from a fire that tests works of Christian leaders, demonstrating who did what they did in life for the glory of Christ, to the fire of purgatory that should only be applied to those having temporal punishments of sin? You sure don't get there by exegesis.
Another passage that I believe support purgatory is:
Mat 12: [31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
Purgatory and praying for the dead are tied to the hip and as such both support each other.
Praying for the dead is Unbiblical, also. So, I'm not sure you want to demonstrate something is Biblical by "tying it to the hip" of something that is
Unbiblical.
So is praying for the dead Biblical? I say the answer is yes.
Of course you do.
The first passage comes from 2nd Maccabees, which I know is no longer in Protestant Bibles. But for the sake of the argument is important to point out that the Catholic church retained this book within its canon and views it as Canonical.
Translation: "I know 2nd Maccabees isn't in the Bible, but for the sake of looking like I know what I'm talking about, please pretend that it is".
1 Cor 15: [29] Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? [30] Why also are we in danger every hour? [31] I die daily, I protest by your glory, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here's another good example of you taking something out of context. Did you really not notice that you began the passage at the word "otherwise"??? Didn't it occur to you at all that it might be necessary to see what Paul is contrasting in order to understand the passage?
Where does this passage say anything at all to support prayers for the dead?
1 Tim 1: [16] The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: [17] But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. [18] The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
And you believe this speaks of praying for the dead because...?
In the first passage quoted Paul is speaking of some form of practice that we have no information concerning
So, if you have no information concerning it, why do you assume you're sure what it means?
which refers to the ability of the living to do something that benefits those that have passed on. He also is using the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to provide justification for this practice.
You realize Paul is talking about pagans, right?
In the 2nd passage, Paul is referring to Onesiphorus in the past tense and not present as he does with others that he names. From the usage of past tense one could assume that Onesiphorus has already fallen asleep at the writing of this letter. Notice verse 18. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus finds the mercy of the Lord in that day. What day?
First of all, in what hermeneutics class did you learn that speaking of an event or action in the past tense is an indication that the subject is dead???
Chris Rosebrough has a name for this kind of eisegesis: textual harassment.
The point I am trying to make here is that we do have a justification of our belief from Scripture.
No, not really. If you did, then you wouldn't have cited every passage out of context and you wouldn't have had to cite extra-Biblical sources.
You may not agree with my interpretation of these passages
Not only do I not agree, but if I made those arguments, I'd be embarrassed.
