Purgatory!

[nephilimiyr]

Yet, nephilimiyr, purgatory is a Catholic word for a Catholic doctrine so basically the OP is about Catholic teaching and even though the OP invites comment from any and every person who is interested. Many or most participants are commenting about things that have almost nothing to do with the actual Catholic doctrine. Even the OP itself is not entirely accurate in its portrayal of Catholic teaching. And then there's the wider issue of opinion beyond the Dogmatic definition. The OP is based partly on such opinion. There is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about purgatory that go beyond the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church but it is misleading to characterise such teaching as "Catholic teaching" or as 'official' when in reality it is Catholic opinion.

That was very well thought out and presented in a very understandable way, but the main thing I see you saying is, I see some people being dishonest. If that is what you believe then you have every right to prove that and defend what your church actually teaches. Otherwise I fail to see what your objection to my post is. The doctrine of Purgatory is not unlike the doctrine of Once saved, always saved. in discussions on that doctrine I have seen both Protestant and Roman Catholic, as well as EOC members carry out arugments that mislead and mischaracterize what is actually taught by those who teach it.

I believe in the doctrine of Body, Soul, and Spirit, but those who disagree with it, many from the RCC, are very eager to mislead and mischaracterize my belief in that doctrine that is taught by several Christian churches, denominations, and movements, as being a Gnostic heresey. So this happends all the time amongst the best of us. I agree, It's not a good feeling and sometimes offensive.

The OP wanted a discussion amongst us all. He or she wasn't asking questions for just Roman Catholics to answer. He or she wasn't just creating a discussion amongst Roman Catholics, but for all of us; Roman Catholics, ex-Roman Catholics, and born and raised Protestants to engage in. That means there will be many opinions given, falsehoods given, and truths as well.

So, when one discusses what Catholics teach it is helpful to be accurate about what Catholics teach and thus avoid many long paths that lead nowhere.

Purgatory is a doctrine like all the others. It's worthy for discussion amongst us all. Yes, it looks like the RCC is the only church that teaches the doctrine but some of us are not more interested on who the doctrine belongs to or who teaches it because we actually want to learn the truth of the matter. Maybe you are against the idea of using reason, and reason with discernment, but in order for many of us to see whether this doctrine holds any water we can't just take the RCC word for it like you and so many others do. We have to investigate it, look through the scriptures and discuss it amongst ourselves. That is what christian internet message boards are all about. I will agree that that isn't the avenue this thread has always gone down but that is the nature of internet message boards.

The OP made it clear, he wants a discussion on the doctrine of Purgatory, not on what the RCC teaches on it. If the RCC is right on it's dogmatic teaching then we all should discuss it, and if the Protestant view on it is right then we should also discuss that.

 

[MoreCoffee]

As an Ex-Catholic I do see that Protestants also have their own type of traditions, but those Protestant traditions are always based on the authority of scripture. It seems that the [Catholic] doctrine of Purgatory is not based on the authority of scripture but tradition.

Catholic Tradition is grounded in sacred scripture. The teaching about purgatory is grounded in 2 Macc 12, and 1 Cor 3, and Hebrews 12:23 as well as a number of other passages. Some may interpret them differently from Catholics but that does not make the doctrine 'unbiblical'.

Yet, from all of the evidence that has been given us so far, it took men with personal beliefs to write the dogma of Purgatory. While the men of the [Catholic Church] can point to some scriptures that might support their view, their belief is not based on scripture but on their personal beliefs. You might hold their personal beliefs in high regard, but they still are personal beliefs.

I think you're being unfair. Obviously if the doctrine is built on Catholic interpretation of passages from sacred scripture then the doctrine is regarded as scriptural by Catholics. If others see things differently then it is a matter that can be debated but it is not reasonable to say that Catholic teaching is not based on scripture when Catholics freely and openly show the scriptures upon which they build the doctrine of purgatory.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet, nephilimiyr, purgatory is a Catholic word for a Catholic doctrine so basically the OP is about Catholic teaching and even though the OP invites comment from any and every person who is interested. Many or most participants are commenting about things that have almost nothing to do with the actual Catholic doctrine. Even the OP itself is not entirely accurate in its portrayal of Catholic teaching. And then there's the wider issue of opinion beyond the Dogmatic definition. The OP is based partly on such opinion. There is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about purgatory that go beyond the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church but it is misleading to characterise such teaching as "Catholic teaching" or as 'official' when in reality it is Catholic opinion.

That was very well thought out and presented in a very understandable way, but the main thing I see you saying is, I see some people being dishonest. If that is what you believe then you have every right to prove that and defend what your church actually teaches. Otherwise I fail to see what your objection to my post is. The doctrine of Purgatory is not unlike the doctrine of Once saved, always saved. in discussions on that doctrine I have seen both Protestant and Roman Catholic, as well as EOC members carry out arugments that mislead and mischaracterize what is actually taught by those who teach it.

I believe in the doctrine of Body, Soul, and Spirit, but those who disagree with it, many from the RCC, are very eager to mislead and mischaracterize my belief in that doctrine that is taught by several Christian churches, denominations, and movements, as being a Gnostic heresey. So this happends all the time amongst the best of us. I agree, It's not a good feeling and sometimes offensive.

The OP wanted a discussion amongst us all. He or she wasn't asking questions for just Roman Catholics to answer. He or she wasn't just creating a discussion amongst Roman Catholics, but for all of us; Roman Catholics, ex-Roman Catholics, and born and raised Protestants to engage in. That means there will be many opinions given, falsehoods given, and truths as well.

So, when one discusses what Catholics teach it is helpful to be accurate about what Catholics teach and thus avoid many long paths that lead nowhere.

Purgatory is a doctrine like all the others. It's worthy for discussion amongst us all. Yes, it looks like the RCC is the only church that teaches the doctrine but some of us are not more interested on who the doctrine belongs to or who teaches it because we actually want to learn the truth of the matter. Maybe you are against the idea of using reason, and reason with discernment, but in order for many of us to see whether this doctrine holds any water we can't just take the RCC word for it like you and so many others do. We have to investigate it, look through the scriptures and discuss it amongst ourselves. That is what christian internet message boards are all about. I will agree that that isn't the avenue this thread has always gone down but that is the nature of internet message boards.

The OP made it clear, he wants a discussion on the doctrine of Purgatory, not on what the RCC teaches on it. If the RCC is right on it's dogmatic teaching then we all should discuss it, and if the Protestant view on it is right then we should also discuss that.

Read post #322 and then you will know what the Catholic Church teaches about purgatory.

 

[BobRyan]

Catholic Tradition is grounded in sacred scripture. The teaching about purgatory is grounded in 2 Macc 12, and 1 Cor 3, and Hebrews 12:23 as well as a number of other passages. Some may interpret them differently from Catholics .

There is not one word in 1Cor 3 or all of Hebrews 12 or all of 2Macc 12 about anyone "suffering" while dead and yet bound for heaven -- needing someone to get them out of suffering "while dead". And of course the Atonement process with Christ as both the Lamb of God and our High Priest - covers all the debts owed by those saints who die and are going to heaven.

There is not one word about a debt owed by the saved saint - bound for heaven - that needs to be paid by the living or by the dead - in any of those chapters. So obviously that is why you see 'no quote' to go with the claim.

This is unlike the case from Matt 16 where the Catholic argument will often quote something from the text to make their claim about Peter being the head of the church.



This is the same claim that the Jewish magisterium tried to make about their own sacred tradition that was at war with the Word of God according to Christ in Mark 7:6-11.

But Christ stated that the sola scriptura test had to be applied even when they considered the matter untouchable via supposedly sacred "Tradition".

So it is no wonder that the Protesting Catholics insisted on testing the doctrine by the Bible - and the RCC to this day complains about that "sola scriptura" test.

[FONT=&quot] Mark 7
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the Word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''[/FONT]


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Shocker]

Since the OP's post is inaccurate on what Vatican Catholics even believe about Purgatory, the entire post is null, void, and forfeit.

What do catholics believe "purgatory" is, and can you support your view with scripture?

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do catholics believe "purgatory" is, and can you support your view with scripture?

The council of Trent decrees the following concerning Purgatory:

DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service). ​

It is worth noting that the Catechism of the Council of Trent contains no detailed teaching about purgatory. Perhaps the strictures contains in the decree from that council (quoted above) explains the omission.

What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say about Purgatory? Well, it has two sections that deal briefly with the doctrine but it.

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honoured the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.​

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”​

1473 indicates that forgiveness of sins is linked to remission of the eternal punishment of sin while temporal punishments are expiated through works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance and if such works have not put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man” then final purification in the state of purgatory is necessary.

 

[Shocker]

The council of Trent decrees the following concerning Purgatory:

DECREE CONCERNING PURGATORY.

Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has, from the sacred writings and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, taught, in sacred councils, and very recently in this oecumenical Synod, that there is a Purgatory, and that the souls there detained are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable sacrifice of the altar; the holy Synod enjoins on bishops that they diligently endeavour that the sound doctrine concerning Purgatory, transmitted by the holy Fathers and sacred councils, be believed, maintained, taught, and every where proclaimed by the faithful of Christ. But let the more difficult and subtle questions, and which tend not to edification, and from which for the most part there is no increase of piety, be excluded from popular discourses before the uneducated multitude. In like manner, such things as are uncertain, or which labour under an appearance of error, let them not allow to be made public and treated of. While those things which tend to a certain kind of curiosity or superstition, or which savour of filthy lucre, let them prohibit as scandals and stumbling-blocks of the faithful. But let the bishops take care, that the suffrages of the faithful who are living, to wit the sacrifices of masses, prayers, alms, and other works of piety, which have been wont to be performed by the faithful for the other faithful departed, be piously and devoutly performed, in accordance with the institutes of the church; and that whatsoever is due on their behalf, from the endowments of testators, or in other way, be discharged, not in a perfunctory manner, but diligently and accurately, by the priests and ministers of the church, and others who are bound to render this (service). ​

It is worth noting that the Catechism of the Council of Trent contains no detailed teaching about purgatory. Perhaps the strictures contains in the decree from that council (quoted above) explains the omission.

What does the Catechism of the Catholic Church say about Purgatory? Well, it has two sections that deal briefly with the doctrine but it.

III. The Final Purification, or Purgatory

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.​

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honoured the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.​

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”​

1473 indicates that forgiveness of sins is linked to remission of the eternal punishment of sin while temporal punishments are expiated through works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance and if such works have not put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man” then final purification in the state of purgatory is necessary.

Im asking you what Gods word says, not what men have contrived.

Catholic "doctrine" is not a substitute for the Bible. The Bible is the only authority on God.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, the only Vicar sent by God.


Let God be true, and every man a liar, as it is written.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Im asking you what Gods word says, not what men have contrived.

Catholic "doctrine" is not a substitute for the Bible. The Bible is the only authority on God.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, the only Vicar sent by God.


Let God be true, and every man a liar, as it is written.

Have you read the bible in its entirety?

 

[Shocker]

Have you read the bible in its entirety?

What does it matter if Ive read one verse or the whole Bible?

I asked you a question, but you gave me an answer that had nothing to do with scripture.

Scripture should easily support your views if the doctrine you are purporting is actually biblical.

 

[Erose]

Im asking you what Gods word says, not what men have contrived.

He did tell you.

Catholic "doctrine" is not a substitute for the Bible. The Bible is the only authority on God.

That position is a man-made doctrine, not supported by Scripture.

Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church, the only Vicar sent by God.

Do you know what a Vicar is?

Let God be true, and every man a liar, as it is written.

I follow God and God alone, and that is why I am Catholic and no longer...non-Catholic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Have you read the bible in its entirety?

What does it matter if Ive read one verse or the whole Bible?

I asked you a question, but you gave me an answer that had nothing to do with scripture.

Scripture should easily support your views if the doctrine you are purporting is actually biblical.

One needs to be familiar with the bible before one can say that purgatory is not in it.

 

[Shocker]

He did tell you.

I was hoping the purgatory position could be directly supported by scripture.. You know, the source of all truth, the Bible..

That position is a man-made doctrine, not supported by Scripture.

Not sure where you are going here..

Do you know what a Vicar is?

"Someone who acts in place of" Something the pope is not capable of, or any human for that matter.

All saints are called to preach the Gospel..

I follow God and God alone, and that is why I am Catholic and no longer...non-Catholic.

Is the word Catholic in the Bible? No.

But Christian is..

Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[Shocker]

One needs to be familiar with the bible before one can say that purgatory is not in it.

So you cant show me purgatory in the Bible?

In reading the Bible, Ive never once come across anything that doctrinally supports the notion of "purgatory"..

So, enlighten me, as you are called to as a Christian, defending the hope that is in you..


Im all ears.. Please, show me in the Bible.

 

[barryatlake]

Shocker, Catholics are Christians.

 

[South Bound]

One needs to be familiar with the bible before one can say that purgatory is not in it.

Conversely, if one is not familiar with the Bible, then couldn't they be easily convinced that Purgatory is in the Bible, particularly by an authority figure they trust?

 

[Shocker]

Shocker, Catholics are Christians.

Why not call oneself a Christian then...


As the Bible calls us..

 

[Shocker]

Conversely, if one is not familiar with the Bible, then couldn't they be easily convinced that Purgatory is in the Bible, particularly by an authority figure they trust?

Which is all Im saying, if they can show me in the Bible objectively what they believe purgatory is, they would simply show me..

Ask me to show you where Jesus refers to Daniels abomination.

Ill tell you Mat 24:15


I just want to see the verses in the bible that Catholics use to justify purgatory.. Ive yet to find it.

 

[South Bound]

Shocker, Catholics are Christians.

Are you familiar with the Reformation? Do you know why the Reformation occurred?

 

[South Bound]

Which is all Im saying, if they can show me in the Bible objectively what they believe purgatory is, they would simply show me..

Ask me to show you where Jesus refers to Daniels abomination.

Ill tell you Mat 24:15


I just want to see the verses in the bible that Catholics use to justify purgatory.. Ive yet to find it.

And you won't. The best they can do is 1 Cor 3, which isn't about Purgatory at all, but about the Bema Seat Judgment, Matthew 5:26, which has nothing to do with Purgatory, and Matthew 12:32, which they somehow interpret to mean that because somebody won't be forgiven, that means Purgatory.

But nothing that says there is a place after death where sinners expiate their sin.

 

[Erose]

Here is again I post an amended version of a post I wrote some time back that may be of interest.

The doctrine of purgatory is relatively simple and not as complex as some here would like everyone to believe. The Catechism of the Catholic church states simply:

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.

To simplify, purgatory is a state or condition of cleansing, that occurs after the death of someone who is saved and yet is not pure enough to enter God's presence. This state of cleansing is temporal. And our prayers edify those that are in this condition.

I will try to show that we as Catholics have a basis for this belief in Scripture. But to formulate that belief it requires a little ground work. In other words a foundation needs to be laid first before one can understand the purpose of this doctrine. The foundation is the following doctrines:

1) Temporal punishment due to sin. (Because those in the state of purgatory making restitution for the sins in which they committed that they were not able to finish here on earth. )
2) Difference between mortal and venial sin. [Because sins that lead not to death (venial sin) do not merit eternal separation of God; but because sin cannot enter into the Presence of God, that sin must be removed before entering into heaven.]
3) The state of purity the soul must be in to enter God's presence. (Nothing that is unclean cannot enter into the Divine Presence and not be destroyed. Thus all who enter God's presence must be in the state of spiritual perfection.)

1) Temporal punishment due to sin: When Christ died upon the cross for us, He took away from us the eternal punishment due to our sin, but He did not take away the temporal punishment due to our sin. This is best illustrated in 2nd Samuel:

2 Sam 12: [13] And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. [14] Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die.

In this passage, God saved David from permanent death, but not from temporal punishment due to his sin. Even though God forgave David, David's son was going to die.

Also we have the instance in Numbers 14, where Moses is asking God to forgive the Israelites after their latest transgression: [19] Forgive, I beseech thee, the sins of this people, according to the greatness of thy mercy, as thou hast been merciful to them from their going out of Egypt unto this place. [20] And the Lord said: I have forgiven according to thy word. [21] As I live: and the whole earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord. [22] But yet all the men that have seen my majesty, and the signs that I have done in Egypt, and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now ten times, and have not obeyed my voice, [23] Shall not see the land for which I aware to their fathers, neither shall any one of them that hath detracted me behold it. [24] My servant Caleb, who being full of another spirit hath followed me, I will bring into this land which he hath gone round: and his seed shall possess it.

Here we also see an instance of God forgiving the Israelites at the request of Moses (His Mercy), but still institutes a punishment that they must endure for the sins they have forgiven (His Justice).

We also find evidence of this in Hebrews 12: [5] And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaks to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. [6] For whom the Lord loves, he chastises; and he scourges every son whom he receives. [7] Persevere under discipline. God deals with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? [8] But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. [9] Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? [10] And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. [11] Now all chastisement for the present indeed seems not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

Obviously God is a just God, so He is not going to chastise or scourge those that don't deserve it. So one can safely assume that someone that is being chastised by God has done something that God doesn't like, i.e. sin.

Another passage to look at is: Mat 5: [25] Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. [26] Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing. In this passage we see that there is a requirement for sin that is not eternal.

We also see it here: Matt 18: [31] Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. [32] Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besought me: [33] Should not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? [34] And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. [35] So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not everyone his brother from your hearts.


2) Difference between mortal and venial sin. This is outlined explicitly in only one place in Scripture and that is 1John 5: [16] He that knows his brother to sin a sin which is not to death (venial sin), let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sins not to death. There is a sin unto death (mortal sin): for that I say not that any man ask. [17] All iniquity is sin. And there is a sin unto death.

This passage provides us with an understanding that there are two categories of sin: venial (sins, which is not to death) and mortal (sin unto death). It should also be pointed out here that this passage encourages us to pray for our brethren that are under the weight of venial sin and that our prayers are beneficial to those under the weight of venial sin.

3) The condition of the soul to see God. Certain passages in Scripture tell us what condition our soul needs to be in to see God.

Rev 21: [27] There shall not enter into it anything defiled, or that works abomination or makes a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 12: [14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness: without which no man shall see God.

Matt 5: [8] Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God.

Jesus also commands us to: [48] Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect. [Matthew 5:48]
So what is this purity that is being spoken of here? Jesus isn't mincing words. He is telling us what condition we need to be in to see His Father face to face. Now here is a place where most Protestant/Evangelicals differ in our understanding of justification/sanctification and this topic is not the point of this discussion and I will not go into it here. But from the writings of Paul we know that our works shall be judged on the Day of the Lord as by fire:

1 Cor 3: [11] For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. [12] Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: [13] Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. [14] If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. [16] Know you not, that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? [17] But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are.

Verse 13 is very explicit that Paul is talking about the day of the Lord which is our own meeting with our Judge after our deaths. In this passage the man that builds upon Christ's foundation, has to be a Christian for an atheist does not build upon an internal foundation of Christ. Those works that he has built up are revealed by fire. Verse 14 outlines those whose works remain (i.e. works of righteousness) and he gets his reward (heaven). In verse 15, some of the works of the Christian are not works of righteousness and they burn. He suffers loss, but in the end he is saved. This refers to the those enduring purgatory. Then you have those Christians in verse 17, who have violated themselves through sin and those God will destroy. So here we see the rewards/punishments of heaven (14), purgatory (15), and hell (17).

Another passage that I believe support purgatory is:

Mat 12: [31] Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [32] And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Purgatory and praying for the dead are tied to the hip and as such both support each other. So is praying for the dead Biblical? I say the answer is yes. The first passage comes from 2nd Maccabees, which I know is no longer in Protestant Bibles. But for the sake of the argument is important to point out that the Catholic church retained this book within its canon and views it as Canonical.

2 Mac: [39] And the day following Judas came with his company, to take away the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen, in the sepulchres of their fathers. [40] And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. [41] Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. [42] And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain. [43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

This passage outlines the ancient doctrine of praying for those that have passed on in hope of their resurrection, which it should be noted that not only do Apostolic Christians pray for the dead; but THE JEWS STILL FOLLOW THIS ANCIENT PRACTICE.

We also find in the writings of Paul a few interesting passages:

1 Cor 15: [29] Otherwise what shall they do that are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not again at all? why are they then baptized for them? [30] Why also are we in danger every hour? [31] I die daily, I protest by your glory, brethren, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Tim 1: [16] The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: [17] But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. [18] The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

In the first passage quoted Paul is speaking of some form of practice that we have no information concerning, which refers to the ability of the living to do something that benefits those that have passed on. He also is using the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead to provide justification for this practice.

In the 2nd passage, Paul is referring to Onesiphorus in the past tense and not present as he does with others that he names. From the usage of past tense one could assume that Onesiphorus has already fallen asleep at the writing of this letter. Notice verse 18. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus finds the mercy of the Lord in that day. What day?

The point I am trying to make here is that we do have a justification of our belief from Scripture. You may not agree with my interpretation of these passages, but then again that is expected and I respect that.