Purgatory!

[MoreCoffee]

I disagree for the same reasons cited above.

If one is a Catholic then one accepts Church Dogma. If you disagree then you evidence a lack of understanding of Catholic teaching.

 

[South Bound]

If one is a Catholic then one accepts Church Dogma. If you disagree then you evidence a lack of understanding of Catholic teaching.

I won't bother to point out that stating that if one disagrees, it is only because they misunderstand is a rather egregious violation of the post hoc ergo proptor hoc logical fallacy, as I'm sure that most folks already realize this.

Nor wili I ask why the opposite isn't also true - that is, if one only disagrees with Catholicism because they misunderstand it, why it is not equally true that one only disagrees with Protestantism because they misunderstand it.

I'll just ask, if so many of your fellow Catholics, by your own admission, do not understand Catholic teaching, then shouldn't you be correcting them, not bickering with us?

 

[BobRyan]

How did the thread get into Baptist confessions? None of the Baptists I know ever showed me a confession that included purgatory. In fact I can't recall any Baptist church of my acquaintance that had a confession of faith; they all had statements of faith that were a page or so long with around 12 to 20 points of doctrine. Stuff like this:

We believe...

... in one true and living God, Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit who is the creator and sustainer of all things, and therefore the Lord of everything and everyone.

(Gen 1:1, Col 1:16, Matt 28:19).

...in Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God who gave Himself in love to take the consequences of humanities' rejection of God, and offers right relationship with God to all who rely on Him for salvation.

(Jn 1:1, Rom 3:21-23)

...in the Holy Spirit, who brings spiritual life helping us to see clearly what Jesus has done for us, and takes up residence in everyone who believes, adopting them as God's children, and enabling them to live for Jesus as their king.

(Rom 8:14-16, Gal 5:22-23)

...the Bible is God's words to us given through human authors, inspired by the Holy Spirit, for our instruction, encouragement and spiritual growth.

(2 Pet 1:19-21, 2 Tim 3:16-17).

...in the church, the gathering together of all who have faith in Jesus Christ, to celebrate who God is and what He has done, to listen to His word and to encourage each other in following Him.

(Col 3:15-17, Heb 10:24-25)

...in the return of Jesus, who comes to gather together all who have loved him throughout history, judge those who reject Him, and to restore all things to their proper order.

(1 Thess 4:15-18, Acts 17:30-31)

...in the practice of Baptism and the Lords supper, in which we publicly testify to our relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

(1 Cor 11:23-26, Matt 28:18-20, Acts 2:41)​

Which is okay but hardly comparable with the 1689 Baptist Confession.

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith was updated in the 19th Century by Spurgeon and was the basis for the Philadelphia Confession of Faith.

It is very similar to the Westminster Confession of faith right down to the sections and divisions topics and statements.

And ... "no purgatory" in it as you note.

non-Catholics tend to prefer the Bible over Catholic tradition as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[nephilimiyr]

The thread already has definitions of venial sins, mortal sins, and purgatory from Catholic sources, so if the aim was to understand what Catholics believe then that is accomplished, right?

Actually, if you read the OP, the aim of the thread was to have an adult discussion on it. The OP never made any suggestions as to who could post what in the thread, just as long as there was a search for truth. IOWs, the aim was not to just understand what Catholics believe but on how anybody understands and or on how others believe concerning this doctrine.

And no, this isn't a dig against you. I actually appreciate the work you have done in this thread by posting what you have so far.

 

[nephilimiyr]

I won't bother to point out that stating that if one disagrees, it is only because they misunderstand is a rather egregious violation of the post hoc ergo proptor hoc logical fallacy, as I'm sure that most folks already realize this.

Nor wili I ask why the opposite isn't also true - that is, if one only disagrees with Catholicism because they misunderstand it, why it is not equally true that one only disagrees with Protestantism because they misunderstand it.

I'll just ask, if so many of your fellow Catholics, by your own admission, do not understand Catholic teaching, then shouldn't you be correcting them, not bickering with us?

Personally I really don't think there's alot of people, whether Catholics or Protestants, who care to learn about this doctrine. My point is, if it was such an important doctrine of the RCC we'd see threads on it all of the time, but I wager if you go to OBOB right now you wont see much if any discussion on it. It's just not on anybodies radar, if you will.

I have to wonder, I would guess that the main reason for the defense of this RCC doctrine isn't so much about the truth in it but on the belief that RCC dogma is always correct and should not be questioned, at least on the matter of whether it's true or not. The belief is, because it's dogma, it is true.

I have a question, are there any Protestants who believe in a place like Purgatory in one form or another? And I'm not talking about fringe Christian groups but main stream Protestants. I know that there are some RCC doctrines where some Protestant denominations have similar doctrines, is this true of the RCC doctrine of Purgatory as well?

I'm thinking this might be the only RCC doctrine where not one Protestant church has some kind of similar teaching? I could be wrong about that though.

 

[South Bound]

non-Catholics tend to prefer the Bible over Catholic tradition as it turns out.

Books I prefer over Catholic tradition.

1. The Bible

2. Chilton's 1984 Dodge Truck and Van Repair Manual

3. The Five Thousand Year Leap by Cleon Skouson

4. 1991 Auburn Tigers Media Guide

5. There He Is!: Bill Dance's Book on the Art of Worm Fishing by Bill Dance

6. Yes I Can by Sammy Davis, Jr (should have been called "Yes I Can, As Long As Frank Says It's OK")

7. Patriots by John Wesley Rawles

8. Propane. NIST Standard Reference Data referring to Pittam, D. A.; Pilcher, G. (1972). "Measurements of heats of combustion by flame calorimetry. Part 8.—Methane, ethane, propane, n-butane and 2-methylpropane".

 

[South Bound]

]I have to wonder, I would guess that the main reason for the defense of this RCC doctrine isn't so much about the truth in it but on the belief that RCC dogma is always correct and should not be questioned, at least on the matter of whether it's true or not. The belief is, because it's dogma, it is true.

Exactly.

I have a question, are there any Protestants who believe in a place like Purgatory in one form or another?

Baptists do. We call it New Jersey.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Exactly.



Baptists do. We call it New Jersey.

I thought Christi had turned that state around though?

Actually, I wasn't looking for a personal opinion but a Protestant church or churches who have a similar teaching.

 

[Rhamiel]

I have a question, are there any Protestants who believe in a place like Purgatory in one form or another? And I'm not talking about fringe Christian groups but main stream Protestants. I know that there are some RCC doctrines where some Protestant denominations have similar doctrines, is this true of the RCC doctrine of Purgatory as well?

I'm thinking this might be the only RCC doctrine where not one Protestant church has some kind of similar teaching? I could be wrong about that though.

I do not know of a denomination that believes in Purgatory

but I have heard Protestants talk of the "Judgment Seat of the Lord" in ways that sound very much like Purgatory

 

[nephilimiyr]

I do not know of a denomination that believes in Purgatory

but I have heard Protestants talk of the "Judgment Seat of the Lord" in ways that sound very much like Purgatory

Interesting, and before I give comment on it specifically I think I should say that concerning the Judgement Seat, Protestants have differing beliefs on this, IE, when it will be and what actually happends there.

In a vague way I think you might have something to this. If you believe Purgatory is a place for judgement but I'm not sure if that's the dogma the RCC teaches. I would say you're close but I think the two teachings are too disimilar to be considered as a similar doctrine.

 

[Rhamiel]

Interesting, and before I give comment on it specifically I think I should say that concerning the Judgement Seat, Protestants have differing beliefs on this, IE, when it will be and what actually happends there.

In a vague way I think you might have something to this. If you believe Purgatory is a place for judgement but I'm not sure if that's the dogma the RCC teaches. I would say you're close but I think the two teachings are too disimilar to be considered as a similar doctrine.

Catholics believe that Purgatory would happen after judgment

but I have heard Protestants use the Judgment Seat as the place where we are transformed from how we are now in this life into souls that would be happy in heaven.

this is how I like to explain it
lets say that I am envious of Jeff
I know that is not how I should be, I have repented and asked Jesus to help me get over this
but it stays a thorn in my side
me and Jeff get in a car accident and we both go to heaven
will I be envious of Jeff in heaven?

no, ofcourse not
but I was envious up until my last breath, even though I did not want to be and asked Jesus to forgive me

so some time between death and heaven I was changed by the grace of God

Catholics call this change "Purgatory"
as you can tell from this thread, there are different ways of thinking about Purgatory and Catholics do not even agree on if it is painful or subtle and gentle

 

[MoreCoffee]

Actually, if you read the OP, the aim of the thread was to have an adult discussion on it. The OP never made any suggestions as to who could post what in the thread, just as long as there was a search for truth. IOWs, the aim was not to just understand what Catholics believe but on how anybody understands and or on how others believe concerning this doctrine.

And no, this isn't a dig against you. I actually appreciate the work you have done in this thread by posting what you have so far.

Yet, nephilimiyr, purgatory is a Catholic word for a Catholic doctrine so basically the OP is about Catholic teaching and even though the OP invites comment from any and every person who is interested. Many or most participants are commenting about things that have almost nothing to do with the actual Catholic doctrine. Even the OP itself is not entirely accurate in its portrayal of Catholic teaching. And then there's the wider issue of opinion beyond the Dogmatic definition. The OP is based partly on such opinion. There is nothing wrong with expressing opinions about purgatory that go beyond the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church but it is misleading to characterise such teaching as "Catholic teaching" or as 'official' when in reality it is Catholic opinion.

Just so we know what we are discussing at the moment here is the original post:

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

Their communion with the faithful on earth is not broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by Masses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. They admit that the word purgatory in not a Biblical, and that this doctrine is not taught in Scripture." This from the words found in the Catholic Catechism.

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"

This is a teaching of the Catholic Church; Restorationist and Mormons who deny that death brings the final judgment. They maintain that millions of people will have an opportunity for salvation after they die. The Jehovah Witnesses believe men do not have a soul or spirit, and upon his death, the body goes back to dust. But, on the last day, God will create them again out of nothingness.

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

I have coloured in red the portions that are not quite right.

In this thread there is an element of garbage-in producing garbage-out, by which I mean that if one starts with a false premise or a distorted definition one will very likely end with a false conclusion or a distorted thesis.

The paragraph that says

It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.​

is very strange indeed.

So, when one discusses what Catholics teach it is helpful to be accurate about what Catholics teach and thus avoid many long paths that lead nowhere.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
non-Catholics tend to prefer the Bible over Catholic tradition as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

More accurately they prefer to believe their own tradition rather than Catholic Sacred Tradition.

 

[BobRyan]

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith was updated in the 19th Century by Spurgeon and was the basis for the Philadelphia Confession of Faith.

It is very similar to the Westminster Confession of faith right down to the sections and divisions topics and statements.

And ... "no purgatory" in it as you note.

non-Catholics tend to prefer the Bible over Catholic tradition as it turns out.

More accurately they prefer to believe their own tradition rather than Catholic Sacred Tradition.

It is not clear that any non-Catholics consider the Catholic church to have any sacred tradition.

But other than that - I think you are right to say that each denomination (including the RCC) views all the others as having tradition that they hold to over the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is not clear that any non-Catholics consider the Catholic church to have any sacred tradition. ...

That's not important, is it?

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

It was brought to my attention that we are moving away from the main discussion of Purgatory and getting into a Catholic said, Protestant said discussion.

But how can we discuss a subject like this when that's exactly what it is! So, can we all show a little more reverence to the written word, and each other? Can we ALL set aside our personal beliefs and opinions and dig for the truth as found in the Bible? And if you can't, than you need not debate or discuss this issue because you have already made up your mind about it, and set it in concrete.


Popular opinions are never the measure of truth, or of God!
Phil LaSpino

 

[MoreCoffee]

Personal beliefs have nothing to do with the dogma of Purgatory.

 

[BobRyan]

It was brought to my attention that we are moving away from the main discussion of Purgatory and getting into a Catholic said, Protestant said discussion.

But how can we discuss a subject like this when that's exactly what it is!

Indeed there is no Bible evidence for Purgatory - but there is Bible doctrine flatly contradicting purgatory "There is now therefore NO condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus" Romans 8 which is the condition of all born again believers when they die.

Can we ALL set aside our personal beliefs and opinions and dig for the truth as found in the Bible?

Christ paid the debt for all - "Not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world" 1John 2:2.

The man-made-myth of Purgatory does not survive the Atonement doctrine in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[nephilimiyr]

More accurately they prefer to believe their own tradition rather than Catholic Sacred Tradition.

As an Ex-Catholic I do see that Protestants also have their own type of traditions, but those Protestant traditions are always based on the authority of scripture. It seems that the RCC doctrine of Purgatory is not based on the authority of scripture but tradition.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Personal beliefs have nothing to do with the dogma of Purgatory.

Yet, from all of the evidence that has been given us so far, it took men with personal beliefs to write the dogma of Purgatory. While the men of the RCC can point to some scriptures that might support their view, their belief is not based on scripture but on their personal beliefs. You might hold their personal beliefs in high regard, but they still are personal beliefs.