Purgatory!

[MoreCoffee]

... Anyway, why should we care that you think we're wrong? ...

For the same reason that you evidently think I should care what you think.

 

[prodromos]

I think that is not quite right. Harsh penances were given during the Roman persecutions and just after they ended and all that was a century or more before saint Jerome did his work.

Mea culpa, you're absolutely right. For some reason I keep thinking St Jerome was earlier.

 

[Albion]

And, most damning of all (hopefully, only in a metaphorical sense), no two Catholics in this thread have been able to agree on an answer.

That is not only true, but quite interesting, don't you think?

I mean, these are the same folks who insist that one of the reasons they are Roman Catholics is because everyone of them believes the exact same way (unlike those Protestants over there!)

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I'm sorry I don't buy it. If Luther was really concerned with reforming the Church, there would never have existed a Lutheran Church. Don't get me wrong, there was a bunch of things he was right on, and there was much corruption among the authority of the Church due to the secular powers of the day meddling in the Church administration system. And yes at that time, just like sadly today, Catechism wasn't a priority, so there was a good number of false ideas floating around out there at that time. So I do believe that Luther and others had legitimate beefs. But somewhere the power corrupted him, and he ceased being a reformer and became a revolutionist.

If the Protestant reformation was just that a reformation movement, there wouldn't be 1000s upon 1000s of Christian denominations in the West. It may started out as a reformation movement, but it quickly changed to a revolution. And at that point all bets were off, Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and the rest started throwing out what they didn't like and started adding things that they did. That isn't obedience.

The Orthodox could say the same about you. But it wouldn't be true, any more than that is true.

In any case, I don't think you know enough about the actual development of the Lutheran churches in Germany and Scandanavia to make the claims you've made. At what point did Luther become corrupted with power? How many denominations spun off from Lutheranism?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Christianity is about truth setting you free, not freedom leading you to the truth.

Luther put the cart before the horse and disaster followed.

Please don't homeschool your children on reformation history.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Please don't homeschool your children on reformation history.

Too late.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

If Luther remained a reformer, he should have understood that the Church is huge, and it takes time for change to occur within her walls. Him and others expecting the Church to change overnight wasn't being very realistic.

So he should have... what? Agreed to stop advocating reform altogether? Because that's what the Leo X and Charles V called on him to do.

That's not being realistic. That's shutting up and ignoring real problems- problems that he, as a pastor, had to deal with in his congregation. A pastor cannot simply stop addressing pastoral issues, chief among which is the application of the sacrament of confession and absolution and the practice of the Lord's Supper, two issues right at the heart of the entire Lutheran/Catholic debate.

 

[Albion]

The Orthodox could say the same about you. But it wouldn't be true, any more than that is true.

In any case, I don't think you know enough about the actual development of the Lutheran churches in Germany and Scandanavia to make the claims you've made. At what point did Luther become corrupted with power? How many denominations spun off from Lutheranism?

There are an awful lot of "seat of pants" answers that people come up with when caught short on any topic. This is one of them: "But somewhere the power corrupted him, and he ceased being a reformer and became a revolutionist."

It is absolutely open-ended so that the speaker can't be accused of making an error. What DOES this say, anyway: "somewhere the power corrupted him?"

"Somewhere" can mean anything including "I don't know;" and "corrupted" is sufficiently vague as to provide an easy out whatever a challenger may bring up.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Too late.

And you told them Luther valued freedom more than truth?!

 

[catholichomeschooler]

And you told them Luther valued freedom more than truth?!

Clearly.

He left the Church and started forming his own doctrines.

Some examples:

My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ" (O'Hare PF. The Facts About Luther, 1916--1987 reprint ed., pp. 203-204).

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

The Bible, in Luke 10:28, states,

"And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (KJV).

Yet Martin Luther taught,

To do means to believe-to keep the law by faith. The passage in Matthew: Do this and thou shalt live, signifies Believe this and thou shalt live. The words Do this, have ironical sense, as if our Lord should say: Thou wilt do it tomorrow, but not today; only make an attempt to keep the Commandments, and the trial will teach thee the ignominy of thy failure (O'Hare, p.205).

Regarding the New Testament Book of Hebrews Martin Luther stated,

It need not surprise one to find here bits of wood, hay, and straw (O'Hare, p. 203).

He also wrote,

St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw…for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it" (Luther, M. Preface to the New Testament, 1546).

and

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works…Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching (Luther, M. Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, 1546).

Interestingly the Epistle of James is the only place in the Bible to actually use the term 'faith alone':

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Clearly.

He left the Church and started forming his own doctrines.

He was excommunicated! He never wanted to leave the church.

Some examples:

My word is the word of Christ; my mouth is the mouth of Christ" (O'Hare PF. The Facts About Luther, 1916--1987 reprint ed., pp. 203-204).

You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still. Sin shall not drag us away from Him, even should we commit fornication or murder thousands and thousands of times a day (Luther, M. Letter of August 1, 1521 as quoted in Stoddard, p.93).

The Bible, in Luke 10:28, states,

"And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (KJV).

Yet Martin Luther taught,

To do means to believe-to keep the law by faith. The passage in Matthew: Do this and thou shalt live, signifies Believe this and thou shalt live. The words Do this, have ironical sense, as if our Lord should say: Thou wilt do it tomorrow, but not today; only make an attempt to keep the Commandments, and the trial will teach thee the ignominy of thy failure (O'Hare, p.205).

Regarding the New Testament Book of Hebrews Martin Luther stated,

It need not surprise one to find here bits of wood, hay, and straw (O'Hare, p. 203).

He also wrote,

St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw…for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it" (Luther, M. Preface to the New Testament, 1546).

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works…Besides, he throws things together so chaotically that it seems to me he must have been some good, pious man, who took a few sayings from the disciples of the apostles and thus tossed them off on paper. Or it may perhaps have been written by someone on the basis of his preaching (Luther, M. Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude, 1546).

Interestingly the Epistle of James is the only place in the Bible to actually use the term 'faith alone':

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

You clearly know very little about Luther. Cherry-picked quotes out of context are not exactly the best teaching tool. Have you ever read a biography of Luther by a Lutheran? Paul Robinson's? Heiko Obermann's? Martin Brecht's?

 

[Erose]

I want to apologize to everyone in participating in derailing this thread, which up until about 25 posts ago was fairly decent all things considering.

So on this thread I will no longer respond to anything that has nothing to do with the topic. If PhillipLaSpino is still keeping up with this thread, I want to offer my honest apologies, for my participation in the derailment.

Perhaps it is time for either this thread to close or that it gets back on topic.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I want to apologize to everyone in participating in derailing this thread, which up until about 25 posts ago was fairly decent all things considering.

So on this thread I will no longer respond to anything that has nothing to do with the topic. If PhillipLaSpino is still keeping up with this thread, I want to offer my honest apologies, for my participation in the derailment.

Perhaps it is time for either this thread to close or that it gets back on topic.

Sorry, I was just going with the flow of the thread and didn't really stick with the topic.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

He was excommunicated! He never wanted to leave the church.

You clearly know very little about Luther. Cherry-picked quotes out of context are not exactly the best teaching tool. Have you ever read a biography of Luther by a Lutheran? Paul Robinson's? Heiko Obermann's? Martin Brecht's?

The Church tried to work with him, but he would have none of it.

Which of the quotes I provided is misleading?

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I want to apologize to everyone in participating in derailing this thread, which up until about 25 posts ago was fairly decent all things considering.

So on this thread I will no longer respond to anything that has nothing to do with the topic. If PhillipLaSpino is still keeping up with this thread, I want to offer my honest apologies, for my participation in the derailment.

Perhaps it is time for either this thread to close or that it gets back on topic.

You're totally right. Same.

Lets jump back into purgatory (er, the topic).

 

[SMA12]

You're totally right. Same.

Lets jump back into purgatory (er, the topic).

Purgatory: Well, we'll all believe in it when when get there

 

[MoreCoffee]

The thread already has definitions of venial sins, mortal sins, and purgatory from Catholic sources, so if the aim was to understand what Catholics believe then that is accomplished, right?

 

[South Bound]

The thread already has definitions of venial sins, mortal sins, and purgatory from Catholic sources, so if the aim was to understand what Catholics believe then that is accomplished, right?

Don't tell us. Tell your fellow Catholics. So far, no two of you seem to be able to agree on what Purgatory is or what it's purpose is.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Don't tell us. Tell your fellow Catholics. So far, no two of you seem to be able to agree on what Purgatory is or what it's purpose is.

You are mistaken on that claim; we all agree with one another about what purgatory is and we all share the Church's Dogma about purgatory. Of course we differ on our personal convictions about non-dogmatic ideas on purgatory, that's to be expected since the Church herself has not defined the matters upon which we might disagree. Post 322 explains the Church's dogmatic teaching on the matter.

 

[South Bound]

You are mistaken on that claim; we all agree with one another about what purgatory is

You do? So the guy who says it's for sinners to expiate their sins agrees with the guy who says it's not for sinners to expiate their sins? The one who believes it's to cleanse sins agrees with the one who admits (albeit with a caveat) that it's Christ's blood that cleanses sin?

and we all share the Church's Dogma about purgatory.

I disagree for the same reasons cited above.