Purgatory!

[MoreCoffee]

I think that pretty much sums up the claim for the source for Purgatory.

in Christ,

Bob

You often propose a partial quote without enough material to be informative as if it were the sine qua non of a doctrine. Of course it isn't. The rest of post #322 really does help to flesh out the Church's teaching on purgatory.

 

[Erose]

X

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Albion

Certainly. One of Purgatory's alleged functions is for the person to atone, through suffering, for their unforgiven Venial sins.
​

The part in bold is incorrect.

So then not Venial sins? --- mortal sins??

 

[BobRyan]

You often propose a partial quote without enough material to be informative as if it were the sine qua non of a doctrine. Of course it isn't. The rest of post #322 really does help to flesh out the Church's teaching on purgatory.

I could also have added this

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

But it is just more of the same claim -

The doctrine is based on catholic tradition which may be why we see so little appeal to actual scripture in your post.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Originally Posted by Albion

Certainly. One of Purgatory's alleged functions is for the person to atone, through suffering, for their unforgiven Venial sins.​

So then not Venial sins? --- mortal sins??

The part in bold was (and may still be) a commonly taught view but it is not Catholic dogma. Post #322 offers dogmatic teaching as well as CCC explanations of it. Unforgiven venial sins are not explicitly mentioned in Trent's definition.

Unforgiven mortal sins have nothing to do with purgatory.

 

[BobRyan]

The part in bold was (and may still be) a commonly taught view but it is not Catholic dogma. Post #322 offers dogmatic teaching as well as CCC explanations of it. Unforgiven venial sins are not explicitly mentioned in Trent's definition.

Unforgiven mortal sins have nothing to do with purgatory.

Because the Purgatory doctrine explicitly excludes them?

includes/excludes Venial sins as well??

Are you appealing to the explicit language in the Catechism to exclude Mortal sins from the subject?

Question - is breaking the TEN Commandments a mortal sin?

IF a Christian decides to start worshiping a pagan idol - in addition to attending church - is that "a mortal sin"??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because the Purgatory doctrine explicitly excludes them?

includes/excludes Venial sins as well??

Are you appealing to the explicit language in the Catechism to exclude Mortal sins from the subject?

in Christ,

Bob

I urge you to read The Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what Catholics teach.

 

[BobRyan]

Is there any Bible support for the idea that -the answer to the following question is "yes"??

If I smoke and then become a Christian and die instantly in a car accident caused by a drunk driver -- do I catch cancer after my death??
no

There is no support in all of scripture for "suffering" after death while on your way to heaven.

There is no support in ALL of scripture for a "debt owed by the dead due to sin" that Christ has not paid for the saints.

In Romans 6 the real wage for sin is defined as the 2nd Death! Christ paid it.


If I fail to study for my physics test and then die the day before - do I "flunk in the afterlife?" --- no!

If I fail to fill my car with gas and then die before going on a trip -- do I run out of gas in the afterlife??

no.


If I speak rudely to my wife in this life just before I die - does she slap me in the after life? Do we argue in the afterlife? Do we need to work out our differences in the after life?


Clearly the "temporal consequence" for errors made in this life follow to the afterlife!!

 

[BobRyan]

I urge you to read The Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what Catholics teach.

You were so adamant that Mortal sins and unforgiven venial sins were not included in the subject - I am asking you where you get that from.

 

[BobRyan]

The once-for-all substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross paid the debt of suffering/torment/affliction owed by every soul of mankind. Nothing of that sort remains for the dead to pay before being allowed to enter heaven.

The work of Christ as our High Priest in heaven - provides those benefits to each one that chooses to come to Christ and receive the benefits of the Gospel - the benefits of His ministry for us in heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Erose]

Because the Purgatory doctrine explicitly excludes them?

Because dying in mortal sin, makes one damned. Purgatory is only for the saved.

includes/excludes Venial sins as well??

Purgatory is for those who are saved that either have unforgiven Venial faults or must endure temporal punishment due to their sins. Venial sins by definition do not lead to eternal death, but one cannot enter into God's presence with a stained soul and not be destroyed.

Question - is breaking the TEN Commandments a mortal sin?

It depend upon the gravity of the sin.

IF a Christian decides to start worshiping a pagan idol - in addition to attending church - is that "a mortal sin"??

Yes.

 

[Rhamiel]

I would say that the 10 commandments are the basis of the mortal sins

 

[MoreCoffee]

You were so adamant that Mortal sins and unforgiven venial sins were not included in the subject - I am asking you where you get that from.

Did you read Post #322? It tells you where I get Catholic doctrine. It also tells you something about venial sins. The Catechism will tell you about mortal sins. I've replied to you in several threads about mortal sins before. If you didn't listen to me before then you will not listen now, will you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Is there any Bible support for the idea that -the answer to the following question is "yes"??

If I smoke and then become a Christian and die instantly in a car accident caused by a drunk driver -- do I catch cancer after my death??
no

There is no support in all of scripture for "suffering" after death while on your way to heaven.

There is no support in ALL of scripture for a "debt owed by the dead due to sin" that Christ has not paid for the saints.

In Romans 6 the real wage for sin is defined as the 2nd Death! Christ paid it.


If I fail to study for my physics test and then die the day before - do I "flunk in the afterlife?" --- no!

If I fail to fill my car with gas and then die before going on a trip -- do I run out of gas in the afterlife??

no.


If I speak rudely to my wife in this life just before I die - does she slap me in the after life? Do we argue in the afterlife? Do we need to work out our differences in the after life?


Clearly the "temporal consequence" for errors made in this life follow to the afterlife!!

If you were to die as you read this reply would you remain exactly as you are when you meet God?

 

[BobRyan]

When I meet God I will have an entirely new body and there will be left no sinful nature according to 1Cor 15 - but my spirit - my soul - my character will be totally unchanged.

 

[BobRyan]

The part in bold was (and may still be) a commonly taught view but it is not Catholic dogma. Post #322 offers dogmatic teaching as well as CCC explanations of it. Unforgiven venial sins are not explicitly mentioned in Trent's definition.

Unforgiven mortal sins have nothing to do with purgatory.

Do you find venial sins mentioned here?

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.

In any case my list remains.

And it appears that Luther was not going for this either - so I am curious as to how the Catholic church thinks the Protestant reformation "is over".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

IF a Christian decides to start worshiping a pagan idol - in addition to attending church - is that "a mortal sin"??
​

Yes.

Then 2 Macc 12 cannot be a discussion about Purgatory.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[LarryP2]

It's hilarious when an Adventist denounces Catholicism for the Purgatory doctrine. The Investigative Judgment doctrine in actuality is the Adventist version of Purgatory, only you serve your time her on earth, awaiting anxiously for the verdict.

"The once-for-all substitutionary atoning sacrifice of Christ on the cross paid the debt of suffering/torment/affliction owed by every soul of mankind."

One top Adventist theologian after another has denounced the church's Investigative Judgment doctrine as having no biblical basis whatsoever and contrary to the Gospels, since clearly it does NOT feature a "once and for all substitutionary atoning sacrifice." Your Sabbath keeping is necessary to finish off the work, that was only at best about half completed on the cross.

The Investigative Judgment, with no support in the Bible, IS the Adventist "purgatory." Either you perfectly keep the Sabbath or you don't.

 

[MoreCoffee]

When I meet God I will have an entirely new body and there will be left no sinful nature according to 1Cor 15 - but my spirit - my soul - my character will be totally unchanged.

If you have no sinful nature then your spirit and soul will be changed.

 

[Erose]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

IF a Christian decides to start worshiping a pagan idol - in addition to attending church - is that "a mortal sin"??
​

Then 2 Macc 12 cannot be a discussion about Purgatory.

in Christ,

Bob

Why not? Two things here:

1) It doesn't mention the fallen Jews worshipping the idols, but rather they took them.
2) This passage isn't about what those who took the idols did, but rather what those men did for the shouls of those who had fallen.

For many men and women we just cannot possibly know their final destination, but that don't mean you don't pray for them anyway.