Purgatory!

[Erose]

I don't know what the appropriate name for it would be as I was just piecing together my thoughts on why I disagree with the belief on Purgatory. If you want to give it a name I guess it is appropriate enough.


Actually I would say if one viewed the sin nature as only being connected to the physical body that would be a gnostic belief. In the KJV whenever Jesus or Paul spoke about the flesh they were hardly ever talking about the physical body, they were talking about the mind and the inner propensity to sin.

I think I know where you might be going with this. Since the sinful nature is connected to the mind or soul, when our body dies why would that mean that sinful nature automatically dies too, right? Well, if that isn't where you were going with this I think it's still a good question and or point to bring up.

I would say that Paul in Romans 6:6 says that our sinful nature was crucified with Christ. This does look like a one time event but when we read Galatians 5:16-18, for instance, he's talking about how we should not gratify the desires of the sinful nature but to live by the Spirit. So it seems that the sinful nature, even though having been crucified when we were baptised into Christ, is still around, alive and well if we feed it.

This is why I believe Paul told us that we have to renew our minds to the new self. Romans 12:2 we are not to conform to the world but renew our minds; Ephesains 4:22-24 we are to put off the old self and be made new in the attitude of our minds by putting on the new self. Why put off the old self if the old self is truely all dead?

I think that these passages do point out a necessity on our part to purify or purge ourselves of those sinful inclinations. We have to be honest and realize that even though we have been justified through baptism, that after baptism, we don't loose immediately our concupiscences, nor do we loose immediately our habitual sins. And thus we need to listen to Christ we He tells us to be perfect as your Father is perfect, and this does require work and effort on our part. We can't achieve it without God's grace that is for sure, but God expects of us to cooperate with that grace. Because at the end of the day, when we find ourselves in heaven we must choose to be there.

 

[Erose]

If I do, will you admit that the two Catholic sources I provided you that state that the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sins are correct?

Here is the two sources that you are confused over:

The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

CCC 1475 says "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."

In the first source the key word is expiation, which according to Webster dictionary:

1: the act of making atonement
2: the means by which atonement is made

The second source uses the key word: expiating
a : to extinguishing the guilt incurred by
b : to making amends for <permission to expiate their offences by their assiduous labours — Francis Bacon>

Neither one of those sources say that the saved individual is doing anything to expiate their own sin. But rather their sins are being expiated. Like I tried to explain before, after our death one can no longer merit. It is an impossibility to do so in Catholic theology. So the only thing left is the punishment.

As an analogy, when a criminal is sent to prison, for however long they are sent there to expiate their crimes against society. That is the reason why after they get out you will here frequently that they paid their debt to society. The same form of justice is seen here concerning the state of purgatory. God's justice still needs to be met, even though His mercy has insured the person, eternal salvation.

 

[SMA12]

This is my last post in this thread. I feel like I've made a good defense of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, as well as explained why we believe the Catholic heresy of Purgatory doesn't hold water, and, to be honest, I feel like the time to shake the dust off my feet was about ten pages ago.

Thanks for the discussion.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the two sources that you are confused over:

The Second Vatican Council, p. 63, says, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."

CCC 1475 says "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin."

In the first source the key word is expiation, which according to Webster dictionary:

1: the act of making atonement
2: the means by which atonement is made

The second source uses the key word: expiating
a : to extinguishing the guilt incurred by
b : to making amends for <permission to expiate their offences by their assiduous labours &#8212; Francis Bacon>

.

Which is why the Bible model of Atonement is a better one than the man made tradition you are describing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Erose]

Which is why the Bible model of Atonement is a better one than the man made tradition you are describing.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I'm not describing any model, but rather discussing semantics, which seems to create far more battles here than theology does.

 

[South Bound]

Here is the two sources that you are confused over:

Wait for it...

CCC 1475 says "...who are expiating their sins in purgatory..."

Neither one of those sources say that the saved individual is doing anything to expiate their own sin.

No comment.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wait for it...

CCC 1475 says "...who are expiating their sins in purgatory..."

Neither one of those sources say that the saved individual is doing anything to expiate their own sin.

No comment.

May I suggest that when reading the CCC it is valuable to read in context? For example CCC 1475 has a context. It's the second paragraph in a section called In the Communion of Saints which is itself part of a point (point X) called Indulgences and that is in article 4 The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation and that is itself in of a chapter called The Sacraments of Healing in Part II The Celebration of the Christian Mystery which is about living the Christian life rather than being about doctrine and dogma (though doctrine and dogma have their role to play in how one lives the faith). One who wishes to understand what 1475 is about ought, at the very least, to read 1474 through 1477.

In the Communion of Saints

1474 The Christian who seeks to purify himself of his sin and to become holy with the help of God&#8217;s grace is not alone. &#8220;The life of each of God&#8217;s children is joined in Christ and through Christ in a wonderful way to the life of all the other Christian brethren in the supernatural unity of the Mystical Body of Christ, as in a single mystical person.&#8221;

1475 In the communion of saints, &#8220;a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.&#8221; In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1476 We also call these spiritual goods of the communion of saints the Church&#8217;s treasury, which is &#8220;not the sum total of the material goods which have accumulated during the course of the centuries. On the contrary the &#8216;treasury of the Church&#8217; is the infinite value, which can never be exhausted, which Christ&#8217;s merits have before God. They were offered so that the whole of mankind could be set free from sin and attain communion with the Father. In Christ, the Redeemer himself, the satisfactions and merits of his Redemption exist and find their efficacy.&#8221;

1477 &#8220;This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission the Father entrusted to them. In this way they attained their own salvation and at the same time cooperated in saving their brothers in the unity of the Mystical Body.&#8221;​

A number of Catholics, myself included among them, have already explained in this thread that purgatory has absolutely nothing to do with forgiving one's sins - since forgiveness is obtained through the mercy of God extended to those who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of their sins - but rather is entirely related to the purging of flaws in personal character and habit which make heaven inhospitable to the forgiven faithful who are predestined by God to be received into heaven by his grace and mercy in Christ. Thus the CCC offers the following brief definition of purgatory in the glossary of the CCC; it's on page 896 in my printed edition of the CCC.

PURGATORY is a state of final purification after death and before entrance into heaven for those who died in God&#8217;s friendship, but were only imperfectly purified; a final cleansing of human imperfection before one is able to enter the joy of heaven​

 

[South Bound]

A number of Catholics, myself included among them, have already explained in this thread that purgatory has absolutely nothing to do with forgiving one's sins

CCC 1475 says "...who are expiating their sins in purgatory..."

 

[MoreCoffee]

CCC 1475 says "...who are expiating their sins in purgatory..."

What do you think expiating means?

 

[Erose]

Wait for it...





No comment.

So you don't understand English? I gave you the definitions of those words straight out if the English dictionary. I'm sorry if those sources are confusing to you.

 

[Erose]

What do you think expiating means?

I think he thinks it means 'working off'.

 

[Rhamiel]

please read the rest of what is written rather then just focusing on one line....

 

[Albion]

CCC 1475 says "...who are expiating their sins in purgatory..."

Certainly. One of Purgatory's alleged functions is for the person to atone, through suffering, for their unforgiven Venial sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Certainly. One of Purgatory's alleged functions is for the person to atone, through suffering, for their unforgiven Venial sins.

The part in bold is incorrect.

 

[Rhamiel]

The part in bold is incorrect.

I think you might be mistaken there

I believe Albion is correct on this

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think you might be mistaken there

I believe Albion is correct on this

Cardinal Gibbons states that, "The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven" so perhaps you are correct. If so, I withdraw my previous remark.

God be with you brother Rhamiel

 

[Albion]

Cardinal Gibbons states that, "The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven" so perhaps you are correct. If so, I withdraw my previous remark.

There's no "perhaps" about it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's no "perhaps" about it.

I think you are reading into that quote. The Cardinal does not mention "unforgiven sins" nor does he define what "died in veniel sins" means in regard to forgiveness of those sins. But what you suggest is a possible meaning for the Cardinal's words.

 

[Albion]

I think you are reading into that quote. The Cardinal does not mention "unforgiven sins" nor does he define what "died in veniel sins" means in regard to forgiveness of those sins. But what you suggest is a possible meaning for the Cardinal's words.

He doesn't use the expression "unforgiven venial sins," but he does say "punishment allotted for those who have died in venial sin." Do you see a difference?

Anyway, there should be no doubt on the part of any Catholic about what purpose Purgatory is supposed to serve, regardless of how this statement by Cardinal Gibbons was worded.

 

[Erose]

Albion's statement is correct. Purgatory is for those who have died with unforgiving Venial sins, and if any temporal punishment due to sin is still required.