Purgatory!

[South Bound]

Salvation is a process, not an event.

The Bible describes it as an event.

We are not saved until we die in God's good grace.

1 John 5:13 says you're wrong.

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

LOL...You didn't even bother to read the passage, did you?

I believe this is what the kids call an "epic fail".

Would you like to explain to us why you believe this verse is referring to a saved person who walks away from salvation and not false prophets, as the verses you conveniently forgot to mention say?

The fact that it begins with "they" should have been a clue that you quoted these two verses out of context.

The previous verse, verse 19, tells us that they weren't saved, but were slaves of sin.

Here is the rest of the passage you weren't honest enough to cite:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell[a] and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;[c] 7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked 8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,[d] and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge[e] in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.

Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, 13 suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions,[f] while they feast with you. 14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, 16 but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet's madness.

17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. 18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves[g] of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved.

Now, which part of that makes you think this passage is talking about born again believers?

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Again, you clearly didn't read the whole thing. The passage is referring to apostates, not born again individuals who lost their salvation.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

The Bible describes it as an event.



1 John 5:13 says you're wrong.



LOL...You didn't even bother to read the passage, did you?

I believe this is what the kids call an "epic fail".

Would you like to explain to us why you believe this verse is referring to a saved person who walks away from salvation and not false prophets, as the verses you conveniently forgot to mention say?

The fact that it begins with "they" should have been a clue that you quoted these two verses out of context.

The previous verse, verse 19, tells us that they weren't saved, but were slaves of sin.

Here is the rest of the passage you weren't honest enough to cite:



Now, which part of that makes you think this passage is talking about born again believers?



Again, you clearly didn't read the whole thing. The passage is referring to apostates, not born again individuals who lost their salvation.

Try again:


2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Again, you clearly didn't read the whole thing. The passage is referring to apostates, not born again individuals who lost their salvation.

How can your faith be shipwrecked if you never had faith?

 

[South Bound]

Nothing imperfect enters Heaven, as I said.]

I agree. That's why I cited Hebrews 10:14, which says we're already perfected.

So you have not sinned since accepting Christ?

Yep. Simul justus et peccator.

You are already perfect?

Positionally, yes.

Then I guess Purgatory is not necessary for you.

It's not necessary for any born again believer. The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1. Where in the Bible does it say everything must be explicitly mentioned in the Bible? The word Trinity is not explicitly mentioned, but can be implicitly understood. Same with Purgatory.

This again?

OK. Again, first of all, thank you for admitting that you have to appeal to sola scriptura.

Second, where does the Bible imply Purgatory?

2. 1 John 5:14-17 talks about the difference

And how did you come to the conclusion that 1 John 5:14-17 is talking about temporal and eternal sins?

You have accepted Christ's sacrifice to save you from sin, yet you I am sure you admit you still sin. So there are still temporal effects of sin that affect you, even though Christ has already saved you from sin eternally.

Could you please tell us where the Bible says we have to be cleansed from the "effects" of sin?

Rev 21:27 Nothing unclean shall enter Heaven.

1 John 1:7 - "the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin".

Heb 12:23 Souls in Heaven are perfect.

Hebrews 10:14 - Christ has perfected those whom He is sanctifying.

Any more you'd like to try?

So unless your soul is already perfect

Why does my soul have to be perfect? Did Christ die as the propitiation for sin or for the qualitative state of our soul?

there needs to be a perfection that takes place sometime between this life and your entrance into Heaven.

Why? Didn't Christ already do the work on the cross?

Please explain.

It's a joke based on a television commercial from when I was a teenager. You said "we Catholics call it Purgatory". I was going to say "and we Bible believing Christians call it baloney". But then I thought of the Indian girl from the commercial and went with that, instead. Next thread, I'll explain "ancient Chinese secret" to you.

Temporal effects, I have been through this.

And I asked you where the Bible says we're to be saved from "temporal effects".

If so, then why do you still sin after having accepted Christ.

Simul justus et peccator.

Your soul is not yet perfect, yet those in Heaven are. How do you account for the discrepancy?

To quote the guy from Monty Python and the Holy Grail, "I'm not dead yet".

The difference between us is that they are practically perfect because they have been glorified. I am positionally perfect because I have been justified.

 

[South Bound]

Try again:


2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Since you weren't honest enough to quote the whole thing, I did. Every verse leading up to the verse where you started (which is why you purposely chose not to cite those inconvenient verses) say that they were not born again believers, but false prophets and slaves of sin.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Since you weren't honest enough to quote the whole thing, I did. Every verse leading up to the verse where you started (which is why you purposely chose not to cite those inconvenient verses) say that they were not born again believers, but false prophets and slaves of sin.

This is about former Christians no matter how you spin it.

Who other than a Christian is made free from evil by knowing Jesus Christ?

 

[South Bound]

This is about former Christians no matter how you spin it.

Actually, I didn't "spin" anything. I quoted the passage verbatim - that is, the parts of the passage you ignored because they don't support your theology - which said that they're false prophets and slaves of sin, not born again believers.

You can call that spin, if you like, but your argument is with the text, not with me.

 

[SMA12]

where does the Bible imply Purgatory?

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (of Judgement) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (Notice this is all taking place after death and Judgement.)

“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Mt 12:32, emphasis added)."

“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Mt 5:25-26).

1 John 1:7 - "the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin".

Yes, and the blood of Christ will cleanse us perfectly in Purgatory for the times in which we chose sin rather than chose to follow Christ. Christ's blood can only cleanse us if we accept it.

Hebrews 10:14 - Christ has perfected those whom He is sanctifying.

Any more you'd like to try?

Yes He does. Which is why if you are still an imperfect sinner, Christ still has some work to do, not because His sacrifice was imperfect, but because of our imperfect ability to completely accept it. Every time we sin we are choosing that sin over choosing to accept Christ.

Why does my soul have to be perfect?

Scripture tells us so.

Did Christ die as the propitiation for sin or for the qualitative state of our soul?

One has a direct effect on the other.

Why? Didn't Christ already do the work on the cross?

Yes, this is why you are already saved once in Purgatory. Purgatory is just where us imperfect souls become perfected in order that we may enter Heaven.

It's a joke based on a television commercial from when I was a teenager. You said "we Catholics call it Purgatory". I was going to say "and we Bible believing Christians call it baloney". But then I thought of the Indian girl from the commercial and went with that, instead. Next thread, I'll explain "ancient Chinese secret" to you.

Haha oh got ya! Good one, I disagree obviously but can appreciate the humor.

The difference between us is that they are practically perfect because they have been glorified. I am positionally perfect because I have been justified.

Then how do go from being "positionally perfect" to being "practically perfect". What is your understanding of "glorification"? Honest question. It may be similar to the concept of Purgatory.

 

[South Bound]

For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (of Judgement) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 (Notice this is all taking place after death and Judgement.)

Sorry, but this is about the Bema Seat Judgment, not about sinners expiating their own sin in Purgatory.

“And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Mt 12:32, emphasis added)."

And what on Earth gives you the idea that this is speaking of Purgatory.

“Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny” (Mt 5:25-26).

And you believe this is referring to Purgatory...why, exactly?

You realize you guys are starting to repeat yourselves, right?

Yes, and the blood of Christ will cleanse us perfectly in Purgatory for the times in which we chose sin rather than chose to follow Christ. Christ's blood can only cleanse us if we accept it.

A couple of problems with this.

The first is that you said Purgatory is for those who are already saved. How can that be if we're not cleansed until we get to Purgatory?

Yes He does. Which is why if you are still an imperfect sinner, Christ still has some work to do

He still has some work to do? Was He lying, then, when He said that His work was finished?

, not because His sacrifice was imperfect, but because of our imperfect ability to completely accept it.

I can honestly say that this isn't Catholic heresy. It's Arminian heresy.

We don't "accept" anything.

Every time we sin we are choosing that sin over choosing to accept Christ.

True, but since "accepting Christ" isn't really a thing, it's an unfair contrast.

Scripture tells us so.

And yet, in spite of being asked several time, you're still unable to come up with a verse that says that.

One has a direct effect on the other.

Verse?

Yes, this is why you are already saved once in Purgatory. Purgatory is just where us imperfect souls become perfected in order that we may enter Heaven.

Hebrews 10:14 says that the born again believer is already perfected.

Then how do go from being "positionally perfect" to being "practically perfect".

Death.

 

[SMA12]

Sorry, but this is about the Bema Seat Judgment, not about sinners expiating their own sin in Purgatory.

You will have to explain the term to me. Forgive my ignorance of your theological terms.

But this Scripture seems to me to describe a purging of ones sins, after death, after Judgement, and describes one's who's works held up to the fire and this were saved, and those whose sins needed to be burned up as through fire, and then were saved.

And what on Earth gives you the idea that this is speaking of Purgatory.

Forgiveness in the age to come. If one is in Hell, he cannot be forgiven, if he is in Heaven he has already been forgiven. Hence, forgiveness in the age to come implies something in between: Purgatory.

And you believe this is referring to Purgatory...why, exactly?

It's a metaphor for the afterlife. We are still held to account for our works, not eternally as Christ has paid that debt for us, but temporally as Christ is describing here.

You realize you guys are starting to repeat yourselves, right?

Well, if its the truth...

A couple of problems with this.

The first is that you said Purgatory is for those who are already saved. How can that be if we're not cleansed until we get to Purgatory?

Because once in Purgatory, you know you aren't going to Hell. But before we enter Heaven we must become perfect, if we already aren't. I'm not, I am a sinner.

He still has some work to do? Was He lying, then, when He said that His work was finished?

You seem to have a fundamental error in interpreting what Christ meant when He said He was finished.

Has He not done anything for us since He said "it is finished"?

That can't be true. He still rose from the dead, appeared to the disciples, ascended, and has been actively reaching out to us ever since. "It is finished" didn't mean "Ok, I have done all I can do...Good luck!" He is still very active.

I can honestly say that this isn't Catholic heresy. It's Arminian heresy.

You have the perfect ability to follow God's will at every single moment of your life and never sin. Impressive, but the rest of us have some work to do and continue to need Christ's help.

True, but since "accepting Christ" isn't really a thing, it's an unfair contrast.

Sorry, I probably butchered my attempt to speak common Protestant lingo.
Substitute "choosing to accept Christ" for "choosing to follow God's will."

And yet, in spite of being asked several time, you're still unable to come up with a verse that says that.

I am quite sure I provided you with 2 examples actually. Here they are again:

"and nothing unclean... shall ever come into it (Heaven) but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." Rev 21:27

"You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect." Heb 12:23

Hebrews 10:14 says that the born again believer is already perfected.

Then according to your interpretation of the verse, I hope you are perfect and never sin, or else I guess you wouldn't fall in the category of one who is "born again".

Verse?

1 John 5:14-17 tells us about different degrees of sin and how they affect our soul and salvation.

Death

.

At least you admit there is a transformation that must take place sometime between your current state and before entering Heaven.[/QUOTE]

 

[South Bound]

You will have to explain the term to me. Forgive my ignorance of your theological terms.

I like the way you admit you're ignorant of basic theology, but then say I don't understand something as simple as "it is finished".

But this Scripture seems to me...

"Seems to me" is a subjective interpretation.

Hence, forgiveness in the age to come implies something in between: Purgatory.

Please note the word "implies". That means it's not that the text says it, but that you inferred it from the text.

It's a metaphor for the afterlife. We are still held to account for our works, not eternally as Christ has paid that debt for us, but temporally as Christ is describing here.

A metaphor? Metaphors are subjective.

Well, if its the truth...

It's not the truth. It's a bunch of heretical claptrap that's been refuted and debunked over and over.

Because once in Purgatory, you know you aren't going to Hell. But before we enter Heaven we must become perfect, if we already aren't. I'm not, I am a sinner.

Hebrews 10:14 says Christ has already perfected those whom He is sanctifying. If that's not you, then you've got big issues to work out.

You seem to have a fundamental error in interpreting what Christ meant when He said He was finished.

...this, of course, coming from the same guy who just said he's ignorant of elementary Christian doctrine.

Has He not done anything for us since He said "it is finished"?

Not salvifically, no.

I know you don't, but I feel compelled to ask anyway: do you have any clue at all what tetelestai means?

That can't be true. He still rose from the dead, appeared to the disciples, ascended, and has been actively reaching out to us ever since. "It is finished" didn't mean "Ok, I have done all I can do...Good luck!" He is still very active.

OK. If "it is finished" doesn't mean "it is finished", then what does it mean?

You have the perfect ability to follow God's will at every single moment of your life and never sin.

Yeah, that's why I repeatedly said simul justus et peccator.

I am quite sure I provided you with 2 examples actually. Here they are again:

"and nothing unclean... shall ever come into it (Heaven) but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." Rev 21:27

"You have come to the spirits of the righteous ones in heaven who have now been made perfect." Heb 12:23

Yes, and I'm quite sure I showed you John 1:17, which says that the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin, not just some sins, not just "temporal sins", but ALL sins and Hebrews 10:14. which says that Christ has already perfected us.

Then according to your interpretation of the verse, I hope you are perfect and never sin, or else I guess you wouldn't fall in the category of one who is "born again".

Ah, I see Catholichomeschooler isn't the only dishonest Catholic here. As you know, not only did I never say that I interpret that passage to mean that we don't sin or can't sin, but that I stated many, many times that we do sin and that I, personally, am subject to the Biblical doctrine of simul justus et peccator.

At least you admit there is a transformation that must take place sometime between your current state and before entering Heaven.

[/QUOTE]

But not after death.

 

[South Bound]

This is my last post in this thread. I feel like I've made a good defense of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, as well as explained why we believe the Catholic heresy of Purgatory doesn't hold water, and, to be honest, I feel like the time to shake the dust off my feet was about ten pages ago.

 

[BobRyan]

No one can snatch from Jesus, but we can walk away from him.


Eze. 33
23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? 24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

The Arminian view is one of free will - and many Arminians - such as myself would agree that once you are born-again, saved... you can later choose to fall away "be severed from Christ" and "fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But not after death.

Agreed. There is no Bible doctrine on working off your debt of sin after death and then going to heaven.

Nor is there a Bible doctrine on "improving yourself" after you die and eventually "improving so much" that you enter heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire...

The doctrine is founded on several verses, one being 2 Mac.12:43-44-45. I will not bring these verses into the discussion because Maccabees has no evidence of being Divinely inspiration.

Matt.12:31-32-33, Jesus said, "I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

1 Cor.3:15, "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (meaning purgatory.)"

1 Pet.3:19, "By which also He (Jesus) preached unto the spirits in prison (meaning purgatory.)"
..

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

1. There is nothing in Mac.12:43-44-45 about purgatory. Nor of any benefit at all for the dead apart from the resurrection of the dead.

2. There is no mention at all of purgatory in 1Cor 3 where the teaching of each evangelist is compared to the doctrine of Christ and false teaching is removed.

3. There is nothing in 1Peter 3 about purgatory - and no Bible statement at all about "prison" being "purgatory" for the living or the dead.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[nephilimiyr]

Catholic theology clearly states that Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to save us from the eternal consequences of our sin. This is why once a soul reaches purgatory, that soul has already reached salvation and will reach Heaven.

In purgatory, the soul is being purified from the temporal consequences of sin. There is a big difference between temporal and eternal. We know that nothing imperfect will enter Heaven, correct? Yet, even though Christ already died for us and person accepts that sacrifice, we still sin. IOW we have been saved from the eternal consequences, yet still need to be purified of the temporal consequences before entering Heaven. This process of purification, whatever it is, is what we Catholics call Purgatory.

Hi SMA12, I've been struggling with deciding which post to reply to, because your post here is a recent one and states the basics of the RCC belief on Purgatory, and it seems that all the other Roman Catholics that have posted in the thread agree with it so I'll start here.

I'm going to try to be as basic as you have been here. In some of Paul's letters he talks about the new self and the old self, the new man and the old man. The old man, or old self, is our sinful earthly nature; the new man, or new self, is our born again spirit.

I agree that nothing imperfect will enter heaven. In Ephesians 4:24 Paul says that our new self was created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. When our earthly body dies and we go to heaven, the old self, the sinful nature, does not follow us there, it's only our new self that goes to God in heaven.

The reason why we still sin is because we haven't fully put to death our sinful nature. This is the reason why Paul struggled with doing what was right. He saw two natures within him waging war, the sinful nature and the Spirit. A number of times Paul exhorts us to put to death the sinful nature as this isn't a one time event. In Eph. 4:22 he says to put off the old self; in Col. 3:5 he says to put to death our earthly nature.

I don't believe in a process of purification. It's not about having to go to a place called Purgatory but about how in this life we are to put to death the sinful nature and live by the Spirit. The way I see it, the belief in a Purgatory would be about a place where christians go to once and for all put to death their sinful natures if they haven't fully done so before their earthly body died. However, I believe when we die here, our new self, which was created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness goes directly to God, the old self, the sinful nature does not follow. That would also mean that what I'm saying is the temporal effects of sin does not follow either. There is no need for a place like Purgatory because of this. The struggle over sin and our sinful nature will be once and for all done away with. Not through a purifing fire or whatever might go on in a place like Purgatory in order to purify the christian.

Well, that's about how basic I can make it but of course I could say alot more about it.

 

[BobRyan]

And Paul speaks of no "process of purification after death but before heaven"

 

[Rhamiel]

Hi SMA12, I've been struggling with deciding which post to reply to, because your post here is a recent one and states the basics of the RCC belief on Purgatory, and it seems that all the other Roman Catholics that have posted in the thread agree with it so I'll start here.

I'm going to try to be as basic as you have been here. In some of Paul's letters he talks about the new self and the old self, the new man and the old man. The old man, or old self, is our sinful earthly nature; the new man, or new self, is our born again spirit.

I agree that nothing imperfect will enter heaven. In Ephesians 4:24 Paul says that our new self was created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. When our earthly body dies and we go to heaven, the old self, the sinful nature, does not follow us there, it's only our new self that goes to God in heaven.

The reason why we still sin is because we haven't fully put to death our sinful nature. This is the reason why Paul struggled with doing what was right. He saw two natures within him waging war, the sinful nature and the Spirit. A number of times Paul exhorts us to put to death the sinful nature as this isn't a one time event. In Eph. 4:22 he says to put off the old self; in Col. 3:5 he says to put to death our earthly nature.

I don't believe in a process of purification. It's not about having to go to a place called Purgatory but about how in this life we are to put to death the sinful nature and live by the Spirit. The way I see it, the belief in a Purgatory would be about a place where christians go to once and for all put to death their sinful natures if they haven't fully done so before their earthly body died. However, I believe when we die here, our new self, which was created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness goes directly to God, the old self, the sinful nature does not follow. That would also mean that what I'm saying is the temporal effects of sin does not follow either. There is no need for a place like Purgatory because of this. The struggle over sin and our sinful nature will be once and for all done away with. Not through a purifing fire or whatever might go on in a place like Purgatory in order to purify the christian.

Well, that's about how basic I can make it but of course I could say alot more about it.

I would say that the "sin nature" argument, if that would be the appropriate name for it, is one of the best arguments I have heard against Purgatory.
it seems logical and it would go along with the idea that we are a New Creation in Christ and the Old Man is to be put to death

here are a few comments on it

is the defeated "sin nature" only connected to the physical body?

angels do not have physical bodies but Lucifer and his followers still sinned.

 

[BobRyan]

I would say that the "sin nature" argument, if that would be the appropriate name for it, is one of the best arguments I have heard against Purgatory.
it seems logical and it would go along with the idea that we are a New Creation in Christ and the Old Man is to be put to death

here are a few comments on it

is the defeated "sin nature" only connected to the physical body?

angels do not have physical bodies but Lucifer and his followers still sinned.

1. Physical bodies of Angels are described in both OT and NT. They are multi-dimensional and so are called "spirits" but the Bible is clear that they have bodies.

2. The argument against Purgatory is not that Angels have/do-not-have bodies. The argument against Purgatory is that it is totally made up and that there is no Bible support for it. Worse - there is Bible condemnation of the principle that saved saints who die must then burn-off-sin after death to get to heaven.

And of course it makes no sense at all to argue that plenary indulgences get the soul instantly out of Purgatory as if the soul did need to be there anyway when the whole argue was supposed to be that the soul needed to be there EVEN with the full benefits of the Blood of Christ applied.

They shoot their own "story" in the foot with that one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[nephilimiyr]

I would say that the "sin nature" argument, if that would be the appropriate name for it, is one of the best arguments I have heard against Purgatory.
it seems logical and it would go along with the idea that we are a New Creation in Christ and the Old Man is to be put to death

I don't know what the appropriate name for it would be as I was just piecing together my thoughts on why I disagree with the belief on Purgatory. If you want to give it a name I guess it is appropriate enough.

here are a few comments on it

is the defeated "sin nature" only connected to the physical body?

angels do not have physical bodies but Lucifer and his followers still sinned.

Actually I would say if one viewed the sin nature as only being connected to the physical body that would be a gnostic belief. In the KJV whenever Jesus or Paul spoke about the flesh they were hardly ever talking about the physical body, they were talking about the mind and the inner propensity to sin.

I think I know where you might be going with this. Since the sinful nature is connected to the mind or soul, when our body dies why would that mean that sinful nature automatically dies too, right? Well, if that isn't where you were going with this I think it's still a good question and or point to bring up.

I would say that Paul in Romans 6:6 says that our sinful nature was crucified with Christ. This does look like a one time event but when we read Galatians 5:16-18, for instance, he's talking about how we should not gratify the desires of the sinful nature but to live by the Spirit. So it seems that the sinful nature, even though having been crucified when we were baptised into Christ, is still around, alive and well if we feed it.

This is why I believe Paul told us that we have to renew our minds to the new self. Romans 12:2 we are not to conform to the world but renew our minds; Ephesains 4:22-24 we are to put off the old self and be made new in the attitude of our minds by putting on the new self. Why put off the old self if the old self is truely all dead?