Purgatory!

[Rhamiel]

And we believe the Bible's teaching that it's called glorification.

lets not get tied up in names

Purgatory is a made up name for describing it.

but you do see that there is SOMETHING that happens after death, you call it Glorification

ok, I am not saying that we have to agree on everything, but I think it is a good idea to find what we do have in common

 

[South Bound]

lets not get tied up in names

Purgatory is a made up name for describing it.

but you do see that there is SOMETHING that happens after death, you call it Glorification

Glorification is not Purgatory. Once you die, you proceed to judgment. There is no way point where you stop off to expiate your own sins.

It's heresy. And it's such an egregious assault on the sufficiency of Christ's atonement that it was one of the platforms of the Reformation.

ok, I am not saying that we have to agree on everything, but I think it is a good idea to find what we do have in common

The problem is that those things we do not have in common are so important and so big and so defining, that they overshadow any commonalities we may have. Have you forgotten that the Reformation happened for a reason?

 

[concretecamper]

Glorification is not Purgatory. Once you die, you proceed to judgment. There is no way point where you stop off to expiate your own sins.

It's heresy. And it's such an egregious assault on the sufficiency of Christ's atonement that it was one of the platforms of the Reformation.



The problem is that those things we do not have in common are so important and so big and so defining, that they overshadow any commonalities we may have. Have you forgotten that the Reformation happened for a reason?

Round and round the mulberry bush.........

We have heard it already!

 

[Rhamiel]

Glorification is not Purgatory. Once you die, you proceed to judgment. There is no way point where you stop off to expiate your own sins.

It's heresy. And it's such an egregious assault on the sufficiency of Christ's atonement that it was one of the platforms of the Reformation.



The problem is that those things we do not have in common are so important and so big and so defining, that they overshadow any commonalities we may have. Have you forgotten that the Reformation happened for a reason?

do you believe that Glorification happens at the Judgment Seat of the Lord? or does it happen in Heaven?
Catholics do not use the term Glorification unless we are talking about Jesus raising from the grave or for the saints who are resurrected at the end of time, the damned are resurrected too, but Glorification is not used to describe them

the Catholic belief is that Jesus is the active party for those in Purgatory, so this has nothing to with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

Oh I know that the Reformation happened for a reason, the King of England wanted a divorce and the little Princes of Germany wanted to be the absolute authority in their little fiefdoms
The Reformation was about Secular Governments wanting to get away from the authority of the Church

 

[South Bound]

do you believe that Glorification happens at the Judgment Seat of the Lord? or does it happen in Heaven?

???

the Catholic belief is that Jesus is the active party for those in Purgatory

Then why does the CCC say the sinner expiates his own sin in Purgatory?

so this has nothing to with the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

Actually, it has everything to do with it. The Bible says the blood of Christ cleanses from all sin but, for the last twenty pages, you and your fellow Catholics have been insisting that sinners are cleansed in Purgatory. The Bible says Christ has perfected (note: not is perfecting, not will perfect, but has perfected) those whom he is sanctifying. You believe sinners are perfected in Purgatory.

Oh I know that the Reformation happened for a reason, the King of England wanted a divorce and the little Princes of Germany wanted to be the absolute authority in their little fiefdoms

...thus demonstrating that you have no clue when the Reformation happened or why.

You realize the Reformation began before Henry VIII, right?

The Reformation was about Secular Governments wanting to get away from the authority of the Church

No.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Shouldn't this thread be done now?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Shouldn't this thread be done now?

NO!! This has been the best thread in a long time here at CF. I've laughed, I've cried, I've had dinner, but I'm skipping the movie, this thread is great!

Keeper going guys and gals!

 

[sonshine234]

Shouldn't this thread be done now?

As long as there are Catholics to crucify Protestants will never stop threads like this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

NO!! This has been the best thread in a long time here at CF. I've laughed, I've cried, I've had dinner, but I'm skipping the movie, this thread is great!

Keeper going guys and gals!

I am glad you've been enjoying yourself.

As long as there are Catholics to crucify Protestants will never stop threads like this.

Alas, that seems to be so. Perhaps I ought to start the Protestant errors thread again

 

[Rhamiel]

???



Then why does the CCC say the sinner expiates his own sin in Purgatory?


.

could you please elaborate on your own views about Glorification so I might better understand where you are coming from?


here is what the Catechism says

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

I do not see anything that says we expiate our own sins

other Catholics have told you that it is the Grace of God that acts upon people in Purgatory
Catholics focus a lot on grace

so when you KEEP going back to the line "you expiate your own sins" we think you are being dishonest because you have already been corrected on this

we are not saved by works, we are saved by the grace of Christ

 

[sonshine234]

Alas, that seems to be so. Perhaps I ought to start the Protestant errors thread again

That would be good but it is like putting signs up and those who should heed them speed by ignoring them only concerned with their own rightness.

 

[South Bound]

I do not see anything that says we expiate our own sins

Then you didn't look very carefully, because I provided two CATHOLIC sources, including the CCC, that say the purpose of sin is for the sinner to expiate his own sin.

other Catholics have told you that it is the Grace of God that acts upon people in Purgatory

And I have explained several times, using scripture, why such an idea is at odds with Biblical soteriology.

Catholics focus a lot on grace

And, as I explained before, so do Mormons. And, just like Mormons, Catholics use many of the same words, in this case, "grace", but define them differentl

so when you KEEP going back to the line "you expiate your own sins" we think you are being dishonest because you have already been corrected on this

Yeah, except for the small fact that I'm not the one who said the purpose of Purgatory is for the sinner to expiate his own sins. Your Catholic Church did. I was just quoting the two Catholic sources I provided earlier.

So you weren't "correcting" me. You were correcting the Catholic Church.

we are not saved by works, we are saved by the grace of Christ

Right. That's a good example. You say you're saved by grace, which is a Biblical and Christian concept. The problem is that you leave out the fact that several Catholics in this thread have admitted that this "grace" is not the unmerited favor the Bible calls grace, but, instead, merely gives you the opportunity to go to Purgatory to expiate your sins.

Like I said, the only difference between this and the Mormon grace is that Mormons believe "grace, after all we can do" and you're saying "all we can do after grace".

 

[Rhamiel]

would you please elaborate on your own views about Glorification?

 

[yogosans14]

I thank God no such place exists. It sounds truly awful.

 

[fhansen]

I thank God no such place exists. It sounds truly awful.

Yes, probably a lot better than earth tho.

 

[yogosans14]

Yes, probably a lot better than earth tho.

True. I think many will be surprised when the day they depart they end up immediately in the Presence of God in Heaven, not Purgatory...well the saved atleast.

 

[Rhamiel]

I thank God no such place exists. It sounds truly awful.

I do not see what all the fuss is about

 

[fhansen]

True. I think many will be surprised when the day they depart they end up immediately in the Presence of God in Heaven, not Purgatory...well the saved atleast.

Either way they'd be closer to Him than we are now.

 

[yogosans14]

Either way they'd be closer to Him than we are now.

To each to his own I guess..

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, probably a lot better than earth tho.

that is your opinion and you are free to it
The Catholic Church has no doctrine on what Purgatory is like

but if you read the writings of many saints through the ages, you will see that they describe Purgatory as worse then any pain that was on earth

Saint Faustina was granted a vision of Purgatory and described it as a misty place full of suffering and fire