Purgatory!

[Vanguard PCD]

I think the concept of Purgatory, like many Christian beliefs, is taken out of context, and to a certain extent, blown way out of proportion by fictional works and revamped mythology.

For starters, Hell is an Anglo Saxon term, and it is used to describe what the OT refers to as sheol, and the NT refers to as hades. Neither are a place of torment, suffering or burning. Quite simply they mean "the grave."

The place of torment and burning will be the Lake of Fire, or Gehenna if you happen to speak Greek. The Greek NT NEVER uses the term hades when referring to the final destination of the devil, the anti-christ, the beast, the false prophet or the wicked...it is always Gehenna.

So what happens when you die? Everyone returns to the grave. They wait there in whatever state until the resurrection and judgment that Revelation 20 speaks of. From there it is a trip to paradise (new earth, not heaven), or a trip to Gehenna, where they will suffer permanent death (destruction). Go read Rev 20:11-15.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's discuss the following like adults who are searching for the truth!

Purgatory comes from the Latin, purgo, meaning, "I cleanse." The Catholic Church agrees that it is a place of suffering, but are divided on how those in purgatory suffer. Some say fire, others say, tribulation.

Those who teach purgatory say, "That some die in grace and in the friendship or God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. They teach that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God.

...

Each denomination has its own little twist, but the following will give us a rough idea of the thinking behind it. It is believed that God created only to bless. Christ's kingdom is moral in nature, and extends to moral beings in every state or mode of existence: that the probation of man is not confined to the present life, but extends through the mediational reign; and that as Christ died for all. Therefore before He delivers up the kingdom to the Father, all men shall be brought to a knowledge and truth, thus breaking the bondage of sin and death.

Your thoughts;

Phil LaSpino

It is a doctrine that exemplifies "making stuff up".

No mention of it in scripture.

No mention even in 1Cor 3 of the "person" being burned in purgatory - or "burned at all" - only the teaching being tested and removed if it is dross. Nothing in 1Cor 3 about penance or indulgences or torment on the way to heaven.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rhamiel]

So what happens when you die? Everyone returns to the grave. They wait there in whatever state until the resurrection and judgment that Revelation 20 speaks of. From there it is a trip to paradise (new earth, not heaven), or a trip to Gehenna, where they will suffer permanent death (destruction). Go read Rev 20:11-15.

Revelations also talks of the Martyrs in heaven crying out to God for vengeance Revelation 6:9

 

[LaSpino3]

Ebia, it would be nice if you could add something to the subject. You have said nothing, so it's obvious you're not very well informed on the subject. The following is a direct quote from the Catechism.

"Some die in grace and in the friendship of God, but burdened with venial sins and imperfections, or before they have done suitable penance for their sins. (this is a form of salvation by works.) The Church teaches that the souls of these are cleansed in purgatory of these last hindrances to their entry into the vision of God. Their (the dead) communion with the faithful on earth is not thereby broken. The living can bring comfort and alleviation to those in purgatory by their intercessions, by "Massses, prayers, almsgiving, and other pious works which in the manner of the (Catholic) church, the faithful are accustomed to do for others of the faithful. The word "purgatory" is not in the Bible, nor is the doctrine of purgatory explicity taught there."

Page 527, Catholic Catechism;

I rest my case!

Phil LaSpino

 

[Albion]

Catholics have a diversity of opinion about what Purgatory is like

the traditional view is suffering of a horrible nature and could take some considerable time
but others are of the opinion that Purgatory is not suffering, but merely a state of cleansing

So...you're saying that Catholics, no less than Protestants, are divided in their beliefs.

 

[concretecamper]

So...you're saying that Catholics, no less than Protestants, are divided in their beliefs.

Wishful thinking?

Divided of what purgatory may be like....not whether there is one

 

[Albion]

Wishful thinking?

Divided of what purgatory may be like....not whether there is one

Just reacting to what Rhamiel wrote. Of course I know full well that Catholics are just like every other Christian in this regard--what they believe is all over the place, whether or not their church has an official teaching on it, whatever the doctrine may be.

 

[South Bound]

You do not quite understand Purgatory.

Ah, good. Let's start out with the ad hom. That always helps.

You are arguing against a incorrect definition.

So, Purgatory is not a place where the dead go to expiate their own sins?

The bible says no one not holy will enter heaven. Catholic teaching interprets that literally , and not as Martin Luther interpreted it to mean, which is simply being covered of our dung.

First of all, I find it ironic that you're now appealing to sola scripture.

Second, one what grounds do you believe Christ did not perfect those whom He has sanctified?

 

[Albion]

Second, on what grounds do you believe Christ did not perfect those whom He has sanctified?

This is the crux of the matter IMO. What would keep us from being with God as he always intended? Answer: sin. So if that sin is forgiven, there is nothing remaining that separates us from God. Logic demands that we understand this, even if Scripture did not make it clear--as it does.

Therefore, we have to question the idea men have invented that forgiveness from our sins, through Christ, is NOT sufficient to reconcile us to our Creator.

It's not? :o

Anyone?

 

[Rhamiel]

So...you're saying that Catholics, no less than Protestants, are divided in their beliefs.

we are united in what is essential to the Faith
different oppinions are allowed on what is not essential

this is different then Protestantism, that has no such unity on essentials

 

[concretecamper]

This is the crux of the matter IMO. What would keep us from being with God as he always intended? Answer: sin. So if that sin is forgiven, there is nothing remaining that separates us from God. Logic demands that we understand this, even if Scripture did not make it clear--as it does.

Therefore, we have to question the idea men have invented that forgiveness from our sins, through Christ, is NOT sufficient to reconcile us to our Creator.

It's not? :o

Anyone?

I would question that man made idea too. His sacrafice did indeed reconcile His followers to Himself.

What faith could you be referencing?

 

[Albion]

we are united in what is essential to the Faith
different oppinions are allowed on what is not essential

So, just like most Protestants and most of the Protestant churches.

But of course I'm teasing somewhat because we both know that Catholics are no more united on essentials than they are on the non-essentials.

 

[South Bound]

we are united in what is essential to the Faith
different oppinions are allowed on what is not essential

this is different then Protestantism, that has no such unity on essentials

Actually, that's not true at all. We are unified on the essentials.

If we weren't, then we could not have just had two large, national conferences which drew people from many denominations together for worship, fellowship, and teaching.

If you believe we're not, then why don't you go ahead and put your money where your mouth is and tell us who, specifically, differs on what specific essential doctrine.

 

[Albion]

His sacrafice did indeed reconcile His followers to Himself.

So you are advocating the Predestinarian view of the matter, I take it?

 

[LaSpino3]

South Bend wrote, "The bible says no one not holy will enter heaven. Catholic teaching interprets that literally , and not as Martin Luther interpreted it to mean, which is simply being covered of our dung.'

Phil replies, "Hmmmm, Martin Luther was trained in both Catholic doctrine, and tradition, and was a Catholic Bishop!"

Maybe the Church didn't do a good enough job in brain washing, --- I mean train him in correct areas of doctrine.

A man can fall at many different angles, but he can stand only in one.

And being a slave in the mind to anyone or anything will leave a person with no vision of a future except that of eternal damnation, and I don't mean Purgatory!

Phil LaSpino

 

[concretecamper]

So you are advocating the Predestinarian view of the matter, I take it?

Nope

 

[South Bound]

South Bend wrote, "The bible says no one not holy will enter heaven. Catholic teaching interprets that literally , and not as Martin Luther interpreted it to mean, which is simply being covered of our dung.'

Phil replies, "Hmmmm, Martin Luther was trained in both Catholic doctrine, and tradition, and was a Catholic Bishop!"

Maybe the Church didn't do a good enough job in brain washing, --- I mean train him in correct areas of doctrine.

I always find it amusing when Catholics try to gain the upper hand by saing things like "Well, you just don't understand [insert Catholic doctrine here]".

What makes it funny is that they're saying it to people who went to the same Catholic schools, attended the same catechism classes, were taught by the same priests and nuns, sat in the same Catholic churches, and read the same Catholic sources as they do.

The difference isn't that we don't understand Catholic doctrines, it's that we've compared them with the Bible and found them wanting. I won't say Catholics are brainwashed, but they do want to defend the Catholic Church even when it can't be defended and even when they have to ignore the truth to do so.

 

[PaladinValer]

Phil replies, "Hmmmm, Martin Luther was trained in both Catholic doctrine, and tradition, and was a Catholic Bishop!"

Um, no; he was a monk and priest, but never a bishop.

Maybe the Church didn't do a good enough job in brain washing, --- I mean train him in correct areas of doctrine.

Hilarious use of purgative language when the facts aren't even being presented.

A man can fall at many different angles, but he can stand only in one.

How about beginning with what is actually believed by Vatican Catholics instead of your false accusations?

And being a slave in the mind to anyone or anything will leave a person with no vision of a future except that of eternal damnation, and I don't mean Purgatory!

Like spreading lies about what others actually believe? Or about other people like Martin Luther?

 

[concretecamper]

I have yet to see a Protestant correctly define the RCC doctrine of purgatory

 

[South Bound]

I have yet to see a Protestant correctly define the RCC doctrine of purgatory

And yet, you don't seem to be able to tell me what's wrong with the definition I gave you.

Purgatory: A place Catholics believe sinners go after death to expiate their sin.