Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Purgatory is and was a great way to generate money.

Doesn't everyone know that already ? It was exposed centuries ago.

 

[PollyJetix]

In a way, that's true. However, Purgatory is more than that. According to the teaching about Purgatory, you also have to pay for sins already forgiven, just because you committed them in the first place.

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

Let me get this straight.

Believers in purgatory believe that they will have to go and pay for all their sins by suffering in purgatory (for who knows how long?) even though Jesus already paid it all, on the Cross?

So, what good is the Cross, then?

Seems to me this doctrine makes the cross of Christ of none effect.

If we expect to become perfect by doing something ourselves (even suffering in purgatory) then Christ is become of no effect to us. We are fallen from Grace! Galatians 5:4

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Everyone who has ever committed a mortal sin goes to Purgatory (in theory) unless it has never been repented of and forgiven. In that case, it's Hell, not Purgatory.

Mark 3 28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

There is no such thing as "mortal" sin. There is sin, and there is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. To deny the cross and implement purgatory is just that, blaspheming the Holy Ghost. It is the Holy Ghost who testifies to the Father and the Son.

 

[PollyJetix]

Because without Christ you get Hell, not Purgatory.
Everyone who has ever committed a mortal sin goes to Purgatory (in theory) unless it has never been repented of and forgiven. In that case, it's Hell, not Purgatory.

So... Jesus says he forgives you... but not really... because He first wants to see you suffer for what you did, before He'll accept you into His presence...?

What kind of forgiveness is that?
Sounds like bitterness instead of forgiveness.

 

[Light of the East]

As written in Scripture,
He who IS IN CHRIST purifies himself, for CHRIST is PURE.
After a person dies,
he does nothing - it is already finished - either he is condemned,
resurrected as the BIBLE says on the appointed day to judgment and shame,
or he is raised to life in CHRIST JESUS as appointed.
All the stories about 'cleaning up sin' after dieing
are completely and utterly from pagan religions
and directly contrary to all SCRIPTURE.

Purifies. Not "is completely pure." That is the language of legal nonsense as found in Protestant theology. That idea was invented in the 16th century by Luther and Calvin. It's balderdash.

 

[Albion]

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

Let me get this straight.

Believers in purgatory believe that they will have to go and pay for all their sins by suffering in purgatory (for who knows how long?) even though Jesus already paid it all, on the Cross?

That's right. That's the theory of Purgatory. If you are a committed believer in Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are forgiven your sins. BUT the theory says that you still have to be punished (they prefer to say "purged") meaning cleaned up of the stain of sin from having committed the sins in the first place and perfected, even though the eternal consequences of sin (Hell) are remitted through faith and a life of good works.

 

[Light of the East]

Agreed!

Staying in the Bible keeps us from confusion, and idolatry.

Amen!

Staying with the Church keeps us from man-made heresies like Protestantism.

 

[Albion]

So... Jesus says he forgives you... but not really... because He first wants to see you suffer for what you did, before He'll accept you into His presence...?

What kind of forgiveness is that?

Good question.

 

[Light of the East]

No purgatory for me, im going straight to heaven.

Keep kidding yourself. You are going to be purged of any remaining sins in your nature so that you become in nature by adoption of grace what Christ is by nature. Without an ontological change in your nature, you will not achieve union with God.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Doesn't everyone know that already ? It was exposed centuries ago.

You would be surprised at just how many will defend this and have no idea what it's real purpose was.

 

[Light of the East]

So how much money does it take to save my loved ones from purgatory?

None. You can't buy people out of what does not exist.

However, purgation, that is, the changing of our very natures by the cleansing fires of God' love - now that's a different story. You don't do that with money (a Roman corruption which created the Reformation). You do that through prayers and fasting for your loved ones who have passed into the next world. Your prayers, in some way known only to God, help them in their theosis (becoming like Christ and assuming His nature) and their ultimate refinement so that they achieve union with God.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

One could almost say that purgatory is the Catholic version of Once Saved, Always Saved.

One could say that but it would be horrible doctrine. The two are not related. Once saved always saved is saying salvation can not be lost. Purgatory nullifies salvation entirely.

 

[Light of the East]

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

Let me get this straight.

Believers in purgatory believe that they will have to go and pay for all their sins by suffering in purgatory (for who knows how long?) even though Jesus already paid it all, on the Cross?

So, what good is the Cross, then?

Seems to me this doctrine makes the cross of Christ of none effect.

If we expect to become perfect by doing something ourselves (even suffering in purgatory) then Christ is become of no effect to us. We are fallen from Grace! Galatians 5:4

This is why we Orthodox utterly reject Purgatory, Indulgences, and Merit, and if there is to be unity between East and West, the Roman Church is going to have to admit these are not of Apostolic teaching nor authority.

That said, the Protestant and Evangelical idea that you "accept Jesus" and God issues you a blanket pardon is also utterly false. Our salvation is not about some legal decree in heaven. It is about changing us into the likeness of Christ so that we become gods. This was the teaching of the Early Church and the Bible. St. Peter speaks in one of his epistles about us putting on the divine nature. In order to do that, you have to be ontologically changed, something that is not accomplished by a mere legal decree of "not guilty" in heaven, as Protestantism teaches.

Purgation after death is simply purging out all of that in our natures which has not been cleaned out during our lifetime here, changing us more fully into the likeness of Christ ontologically so that we might enter into union with Him.

Analogy - an ice cube cannot become fire. Fire destroys ice. But wood, when united to fire, becomes fire, and soon loses all properties of wood. The fire of God's love changes us into divinity, not in essence, (which would be blasphemy) but in our natures, so that we can share fully in the love of the Trinity.

 

[Light of the East]

One could say that but it would be horrible doctrine. The two are not related. Once saved always saved is saying salvation can not be lost. Purgatory nullifies salvation entirely.

Once saved - always saved was made up by Protestant Reformers sick of the corruptions of the Roman Church (and with good reason). But it is false and based on a false premise - that of a legal declaration of "not guilty" in heaven.

Purgation after death does not mean that you "lose your salvation." It simply means that you are being purged of your remaining sinful nature and made to be like Christ. Sorry you are so confused on this, but given Roman confusion on this matter, that is not surprising.

 

[Albion]

Once saved - always saved was made up by Protestant Reformers sick of the corruptions of the Roman Church (and with good reason).

You are the second poster to say that, but OSAS actually does not have much of anything to do with Purgatory.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That idea was invented

Most of the pagan ideas, in fact all of the pagan ideas,
brought into the world church,
were invented ...... by men and demons....

Let us all get to and adhere/ Stick with GOD'S WORD in all things.

 

[Sammy-San]

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

Do you believe calling Christians saints or priests is redundant?

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Once saved - always saved was made up by Protestant Reformers sick of the corruptions of the Roman Church (and with good reason). But it is false and based on a false premise - that of a legal declaration of "not guilty" in heaven.

Purgation after death does not mean that you "lose your salvation." It simply means that you are being purged of your remaining sinful nature and made to be like Christ. Sorry you are so confused on this, but given Roman confusion on this matter, that is not surprising.

Just like how purgatory was made up by men and the notion of salvation through the Eucharist also man made. I do not follow Luther or any other man, I follow Jesus

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you believe calling Christians saints or priests is redundant?

I believe in the world church it is sinful, contrary to all SCRIPTURE.

In the body of CHRIST, we are all called saints every day, and /as/ over and over and over again IN SCRIPTURE.
And priests, all of us in CHRIST. (not man-made opposed to JESUS).

 

[Sammy-San]

I believe in the world church it is sinful, contrary to all SCRIPTURE.

In the body of CHRIST, we are all called saints every day, over and over and over again IN SCRIPTURE.
And priests, all of us in CHRIST. (not man-made opposed to JESUS).

What about those who say priest derives from elder?