Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

Dwight55 · Apr 17, 2017

Purgatory is a gross misunderstanding of what Jesus told the "good thief" that was crucified next to him. "Today, you will be with me in paradise", . . . not heaven, . . . paradise. We are also informed that Christ spent 3 days in the heart of the earth, . . . preaching and teaching the old testament saints. At the end of those 3 days, . . . Christ arose from paradise, . . . and between seeing Mary at the tomb, . . . and some of the disciples a little while later, . . . ascended to his Father to present His sacrifice before God, . . . taking the old testament saints with Him and the thief.

Many mistake paradise for a place where "almost good people" could be made good, . . . which did sort of happen that one time. We are told that the old testament saints must be judged the same as we are, . . . hence they had to have an altar call, . . . had to accept Jesus as the atonement for their sins, . . . and that is the way it happened.

Since then, paradise has been closed.

pius463 · Apr 17, 2017

Where is purgatory? There's no exact answer.
How long will a soul be in purgatory? There's no exact answer.
But I believe a "purgatory" that differs with the doctrine of faith.

I refer to John 3:11, Matthew 11:14, Mark 8:11-13. Jesus taught about reincarnation. Practically, souls living as human on Earth are living in purgatory by means of John 3:18 (condemned) and will be living here again and again until it received John 8:24 and come to John 17:3.

Our God is not an immediate punnisher. We (mankind) are condemning ourselves by our own choice. Our God is waiting for us to realize who we are (John 3:18) and who He is (John 17:3).

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 17, 2017

Brian Sellers said:
explanations for the Church's teaching on purgatory. No pagan sources.

The pagan sources, and worse that you really, really do not want brought up here,
were well known and rejected by those trusting God and following Jesus.
"explanations" for the false teaching on prgtry were NEEDED BECAUSE it is not in SCRIPTURE at all.
"explanations" for other false 'church' teachings on other things verify the lack of integrity and the repeated practice in developing, accepting, and teaching as truth that stuff which is false, and has always been known as false.

PollyJetix · Apr 17, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
You missed the word that Jesus used: UNTIL. UNTIL is not a synonym for "forever". Your tradition of Christian "Hell" is forever. But Jesus' "until the last penny is paid" is not forever. It is UNTIL - temporal - limited. And that is why Gehenna, the prison where this happens, is Purgatory, and not your Hell, because Hell is forever, but Purgatory is "until". And that "until" makes all the difference.

Your demand that "UNTIL" has to mean there will be an end of suffering, flies in the face of what Christ said about unforgiveness. He said that those who do not forgive, will receive no forgiveness themselves. Period.

You see, the man who refused to forgive his fellowman, had an amazing thing happen to him.
He had been forgiven of all his debt!
He was home free... if he could have held onto it.

But when he did not forgive his fellow man, all of his former debt, which had been forgiven and removed from him, was piled back onto him!

This is not a picture of being forgiven, but needing further purging.
This is instead a picture of God stopping the forgetting of the sins he forgave.
It is a picture of a man who WAS forgiven, losing that status, completely!

He becomes an unredeemed person.
As he was before he was forgiven.

And there is no way an unredeemed person can pay to God their debt of sin.
Not throughout the extent of eternity.
Mission impossible.

Kenny'sID · Apr 17, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
You missed the word that Jesus used: UNTIL. UNTIL is not a synonym for "forever".

Until it is paid. There are many that believe we pay for our sin in hell and then are destroyed or "until" the price is paid (shall not "perish", but have everlasting life) But even omitting that, if it takes forever to pay our sins, until is the forever. Then there is the fact, the term doesn't matter at all, he was just making a point, it is a parable after all and many things that were exact in the parable don't really happen.

Then even omitting all of that, you really believe the whole thing can hinge on that one word?

Remember, I asked for something clear? That falls waaay short.

Tim Rohr · Apr 17, 2017

The presupposition is that everything that Jesus taught can be found in Scripture. Aside from the fact that Jesus left us nothing in writing, there is also the matter as to who gets to decide what constitutes "Scripture." Just for starters, the followers of Martin Luther say there are 66 books in the Bible, the Catholics say there are 73, and the Greek Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox all add to that. So whose "Bible" shall we refer to?

Additionally, John 21 tells us: “There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”

More than likely, the “many other things that Jesus did/taught” may well have occurred in the 40 day period between the Resurrection and his Ascension into heaven. If there ever was a time for Jesus to teach and the Apostles to listen, it certainly would have been during this period.

In Acts 1, Luke tells us: “In the first book,a Theophilus, I dealt with all that Jesus did and taught until the day he was taken up, after giving instructions through the holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. He presented himself alive to them by many proofs after he had suffered, appearing to them during forty days* and speaking about the kingdom of God.”

Obviously there was much instruction during this period but nothing specific seems to be recorded in “scripture.” In fact, Luke references his “first book” (probably his Gospel), where he dealt with “all that Jesus did and taught UNITL the day he was taken up.” However, other than the Road to Emmaus account, nothing much else is said about what Jesus did or taught during this period. So it may be that this portion of Luke’s Gospel was lost.

Specific to your inquiry, though, regarding a scriptural reference to Purgatory. A “third place” which is not Heaven or Hell can be found in Revelation 20:13-14: “The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire.”

At this point I will copy a portion of what I have already written on the matter elsewhere with a link to the source:

...The passage (Revelation 20:13-14) occurs within the context of a description of events which will occur at the end of time. One of the main events is that Hades will “give up its dead”. We know Hades isn’t Hell (understood as the place of eternal damnation) because Hell is noted separately as “the pool of fire”. And we for sure know that Hades isn’t Heaven. So what is it?

Classically, Hades is understood as a holding place for the dead. Such a place was seen as necessary before Christ opened the gates of Heaven, but deemed by Luther and others as unnecessary after. Yet, here we are at the end of time, and not only is Hades still around, its got souls “holed up” there.

What are they doing there? There can be only one explanation. They are not deserving of Hell (or else they’d be there), and not yet worthy of Heaven (or else they’d be there). They are in fact, “spirits in prison”, which comports with Mt. 5:26: “you will not get out of there until you have paid the last penny.” The Mass Never Ends: HEAVEN: PROBABLY NOT YOUR NEXT STOP

Vicomte13 · Apr 17, 2017

pius463 said:
Where is purgatory? There's no exact answer.

Purgatory is Gehenna. It is under the earth, in Sheol/Hades, and separated from Gan Eden/Paradise where, among others, Abraham is with his own people. What separates the two is a black chasm, the bottom of which may well be Tartarus, of Peter's letter, where the fallen angels are imprisoned awaiting final judgment. Jesus gives us this geography in his parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Kenny'sID · Apr 17, 2017

PollyJetix said:
Your demand that "UNTIL" has to mean there will be an end of suffering, flies in the face of what Christ said about unforgiveness. He said that those who do not forgive, will receive no forgiveness themselves. Period.

You see, the man who refused to forgive his fellowman, had an amazing thing happen to him.
He had been forgiven of all his debt!
He was home free... if he could have held onto it.

But when he did not forgive his fellow man, all of his former debt, which had been forgiven and removed from him, was piled back onto him!

And that is the point, something I missed but negates the problem with "until" completely.

marineimaging · Apr 17, 2017

The only thing I have to say about your point is that we are not punished by God sending us to hell if I read your statement right. Punishment implies that we receive the consequences of our behavior and then can do something to make amends and get out of trouble. Once you are gone to hell you have no way to make amends but God does not punish us. In computer lingo from birth we are bound for eternal hell by default. But God, out of His love, gave His only begotten Son as the ransom. Why is that so hard to understand? If we were born form the womb onto a rock and stood there without moving from birth to death, NEVER moving, never thinking, never sinning - we would still be sinners. As a sinner we could not even pay for our own sins. Anything we did would fall short of the Glory of God. The only one who could do that was the only one who was without sin and that was Jesus. So, again, we are not 'sent' to hell as punishment. We are bound for hell until we do something to change course and it must be done while we are alive and have choice.

Vicomte13 · Apr 17, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
Until it is paid. There are many that believe we pay for our sin in hell and then are destroyed or "until" the price is paid (shall not "perish", but have everlasting life) But even omitting that, if it takes forever to pay our sins, until is the forever. Then there is the fact, the term doesn't matter at all, he was just making a point, it is a parable after all and many things that were exact in the parable don't really happen.

Then even omitting all of that, you really believe the whole thing can hinge on that one word?

Remember, I asked for something clear? That falls waaay short.

It is very clear to me, and it fits in alongside the rest of what is in Scripture, from the prayers for the dead offered by the Maccabees, to Jesus' promise that he would judge men by their deeds, to the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Gehenna is Jewish Purgatory - Jesus didn't need to define the word, which first appears in Scripture in his mouth, because Jews already knew what it was.

You have a tradition that sees things very differently, and so you cannot see it. What use, then, is there to continue to go back and forth over something that is transparently clear, to me, and opaque to you? It is of no use at all. Therefore, let's stop doing so. Peace.

Vicomte13 · Apr 17, 2017

PollyJetix said:
Your demand that "UNTIL" has to mean there will be an end of suffering, flies in the face of what Christ said about unforgiveness. He said that those who do not forgive, will receive no forgiveness themselves. Period.

No he didn't. YOU said that. But HE said that the man would be tormented until he paid, and that God would do the same to you if you don't forgive. YOU turned "until" into "forever." That's your prerogative to say what you will, but I'll stick with Jesus and what he said. Period.

Brian Sellers · Apr 17, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
So, in other words, the catholics were tricked into adding or keeping books that no one else accepts ,
just like adding and keeping pagan concepts that no one
else accepts.

God never says to study, learn or keep what is not from Him, never.

To accept things from heathen religion, false teachings and pagan ways,
is wrong.

Those books were there from the beginning in the Septuagint. The Septuagint was the first translation of the Hebrew Bible; and was made in the third century B.C. by Jewish scribes, who were direct descendents of those trained in Ezra's Great Synagogue of Jerusalem. They were complete experts in the text, being very well versed in Hebrew and Greek.

This translation became very popular among Jews in the first two centuries before Christ because many Jews in those days did not understand Hebrew. Their ancestors had left Israel centuries before, and generation after generation gradually lost the ability to read the Scriptures in Hebrew.

Many of the Jews in Jesus' day used the Septuagint as their Bible. Quite naturally, the early Christians also used the Septuagint in their meetings and for personal reading; and many of the New Testament apostles quoted it when they wrote the Gospels and Epistles in Greek. What is most fascinating is that the order of the books in the Septuagint is the same order in our Bibles today, and not like the Hebrew scrolls. The New Testament quotes the Septuagint 90% of the time and the Hebrew text just 10% of the time. In the 2nd century the Jews rejected any books for which there was no original copy in Hebrew, that was there claim anyway. By now Christianity had become a distinct religion and the Church wasn't going to discard Sacred Scripture because the Jews rejected it. If you follow that logic then you have to jettison the entire New Testatment. Fragments of Dead Sea Scrolls dating back to before 70 A.D. contained parts of the apocrypha books in Hebrew, including Sirach and Tobit and even older transcripts have been found. Earlier this year another cave was discovered with scrolls similar the Dead Sea Scrolls. It's the largest of its find in 60 years. Yes God has preserved His Word not just since 1611 (what a ridiculous argument) but since the beginning, even before there was the Bible, there was His Church and it has preserved and protected the great deposit of faith for 2,000 years! Not of its own ability but through the power of the Holy Spirit which will protect His Church forever.

tonialvarez · Apr 17, 2017

Brian Sellers said:
There are two Bible passages where Jesus taught the reality of purgatory: Matthew 5:25-26 and Matthew 12:32.
Let’s consider Matthew 12:32 first:

And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Putting aside the question of what the unforgivable sin is, notice Jesus’ implication: there are some sins that can be forgiven in the age to come, whatever that age may be. Pope St. Gregory the Great says: “From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4, 39).

I would argue that the “age” (or “world,” as the Douay Rheims translates it) that Jesus refers to in this passage is the afterlife. First, the Greek word for “age,” aion, is used in reference to life after death in Mark 10:30, when Jesus speaks of eternal life as a reward in the “age to come” for those who give up temporal things for his sake. This doesn’t mean Jesus is teaching purgatory is eternal, since he teaches souls who are there can get out by having their sins forgiven, but he is asserting this state of being exists in the afterlife.

Aion can be used to refer to a distinct period of time in this life, as in Matthew 28:20 when Jesus says he’ll be with his apostles until the end of the “age.” But I think the context suggests it’s being used for the afterlife. Just a few verses later (v. 36) Jesus speaks of the “day of judgment,” which, according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after death.

So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death wherein the soul is being forgiven of sins, which in light of the Old Testament tradition (Psalms 66:10-12; Isaiah 6:6-7; 4:4) and Paul’s writings (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) means the soul is being purged or purified.

This state can’t be heaven, since there are no sins in heaven. It can’t be hell, since no souls in hell can have their sins forgiven and be saved. What is it? It’s purgatory.

The second Bible passage where Jesus teaches the reality of purgatory is Matthew 5:25-26:

Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Jesus makes it clear that the offender has to pay for his sins. But the question is, “Is Jesus referring to a place of repayment in this life or the next?” I argue the next.

The first clue is the Greek word for “prison,” which is phulake. St. Peter uses this Greek word in 1 Peter 3:19 when he describes the prison in which the Old Testament righteous souls were kept before Jesus’ ascension and that which Jesus visited during the separation of his soul and body in death. Since phulake was used for a holding place in the afterlife in the Christian tradition, it’s not unreasonable to conclude that’s how Matthew is using it in Matthew 5:25, especially when one considers the context, which constitutes our second clue.

That "satanic religion" gave you Sacred Scripture through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is a historical fact. Falsely accusing your neighbor is a sin. “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20). Notice Christ’s command restricts the Christian evangelist to teaching only what Christ revealed and not his own opinions. Whether it is on the issue of purgatory or the requirement of baptism or some other issue, there are a lot of churches violating this commandment. The Church is very careful to ensure that its teachings as explained in the catechism do not violate the command given by Christ.

"Matthew 5:22-26
"danger of hell fire" is just that= Hell, NOT purgatory. Refer back to Hebrews 9:27

"Matthew 12:32"
First, "Pope St. Gregory" or "Douay Rheims" are not Gods's words so I will disregard their conclusions. But notice what the verse actually says WORLD not age to come. Matthew 12:32"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this WORLD neither in the WORLD to come." So meaning this world or the next world that God will create. It is referring to a different dispensation, the dispensation of the law.

We have to rightly divide the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
So to blaspheme the Holy Spirit is for those living under the law. We are not currently in the dispensation of law, we are in the dispensation of Grace given to Paul so that verse does not apply to us, but to those during the time it was said and again when the dispensation of the Law comes back into place.. Ephesians 3:1-2 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,If ye have heard of the dispensation of the GRACE of God which is given me to you-ward:" We are currently in the dispensation of Grace.

"So what do we have? We have a state of existence after death " I agree, existence burning in hell forever. Notice the repetition of "NOT QUENCHED"
Mark 9:44-48 "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT QUENCHED.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that NEVER shall be QUENCHED:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT QUENCHED.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is NOT QUENCHED.

"wherein the soul is being forgiven of sins" The bible doesn't talk of such act, but instead it says the fire will NEVER BE "QUENCHED" (see above)

"That "satanic religion" gave you Sacred Scripture"" Yes, it did: a satanic bible that comes from satanic manuscripts that keep producing bibles that keep changing when Gods clearly teaches us that His words will not change: Isaiah 40:8 "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." Why do those bibles keep changing: because they are NOT God's words.
"The Church is very careful to ensure that its teachings as explained in the catechism " Catechism is not the bible, so why spend time there when you could be reading God's true words. If you really want to read God's true words Get yourself a King James Bible!

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 17, 2017

No, we don't have to presuppose anything.

Since anything that is contrary to Jesus is not from God,
that is our standard.

Since the whole idea that JESUS BLOOD is not enough is beyond ludicrous, beyond belief, a total attack on God's WORD ,
we who trust God and believe the BIBLE, HIS WORD,
do not accept
the pagan/ heathen unbiblical concept of any other payment for our sins, period.

THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, is completely shown IN SCRIPTURE,
and nothing can be added to that, nothing at all,

so adding pagan and heathen /unbiblical/ teachings to God's Word
for some religious advantage and religious profit(money)
is idolatry at the worst.

QUOTE=]The presupposition is that everything that Jesus taught can be found in Scripture.[/QUOTE

Kenny'sID · Apr 17, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
What use, then, is there to continue to go back and forth over something that is transparently clear, to me, and opaque to you?

I noticed you didn't point out the vice versa to that. Otherwise, I agree, I think it's hogwash... you don't, and vice versa. If you cannot see where your claims don't hold up...oh well.

ripple the car · Apr 17, 2017

My thing is... It is possible that the spiritual reality of the universe may also include realities not explicitly elaborated on in Scripture. It's possible.

I know Scripture feels "safe" for many, and I get that. But it is also possible the Purgatory or some similar state is real, and that Scriptures point to it.

Vicomte13 · Apr 17, 2017

Kenny'sID said:
I noticed you didn't point out the vice versa to that. Otherwise, I agree, I think it's hogwash... you don't, and vice versa. If you cannot see where your claims don't hold up...oh well.

You and the lady who started this thread agree with each other. And I see that there are some on this thread who appear to believe more or less as I do. The differences of opinion on the matter have been very strongly stated, vetted, challenged, and laid out end to end. You are not persuaded of our view, and we are not persuaded of yours.

So, what shall we do next? Scream at each other and beat each other's brains out? That's what our forebears did 500 years ago. It sullied both forever with black history that all of the pagans and enemies of Christ point to as proof that NONE of us is of God or with God. So no, we shan't do that.

What then? Repeat the same things over and over and over again? To what purpose? So that we can provoke one another to anger and then start hurling accusations of evil? There's already some of that here, and it's unedifying.

My solution is to say that I've said what I have to say. I've read what you have to say. I do not find what you have said at all persuasive, and vice versa. So I'm going to leave it at that and wish you peace and a Happy Easter Monday. Good night.

PollyJetix · Apr 17, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
No he didn't. YOU said that. But HE said that the man would be tormented until he paid, and that God would do the same to you if you don't forgive. YOU turned "until" into "forever." That's your prerogative to say what you will, but I'll stick with Jesus and what he said. Period.

This is the verse I was referring to:
Mark 11:25-26 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Catholics have said on this thread that purgatory is for those who have been forgiven. It is not for sin that God has not forgiven.

But if this parable is about purgatory, then it's saying that all the sins you were once forgiven of, you will have thrown back on you, and you will have to work off that original debt.

Because that's what the parable says.

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 17, 2017

Clear?
What God says,
What is in God's Word, Keep and Honor. As God grants true understanding. (He rejoices to reveal truth of salvation to babes!, and to hide salvation<< to hide it, from scholars and the educated who oppose Him)

What God says do not accept,
what God says reject,
what God's Word says reject, reject, as He directs.
Obey God.
Follow Jesus. TO HEAVEN!
and on earth as in HEAVEN - Follow Jesus. Today.

not follow men or teachings that oppose Jesus.
Little children, sit on Jesus lap - of such are the kingdom.
Little children, get free from idols,
and keep yourselves free of all idolatry.

Little children, TRUST JESUS.

Dr Bruce Atkinson · Apr 17, 2017

PollyJetix said:
I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

The accepted canonical scriptures (for most Christians) do not mention anything about anything resembling purgatory. This tells us, that if it has any truth to it at all, it is not important for us think about. Very secondary and unimportant. Some Apochryphal (extra, non-canonical) writings during the "silent period" after the last Jewish prophet and prior to Jesus Christ, do say some suggestive things about such a possibility. But protestant churches have uniformly rejected this Roman Catholic tradition.

Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

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