Purgatory: Scriptural or not... or worse?

Vicomte13 said:

It does not. Hell does not appear in the Scriptures at all. It is a Scandinavian term.

What DOES appear in the Scriptures is Sheol/Hades - the underworld, where a chasm separates Gehenna from Gan Eden/Paradise.

Gehenna is a parched place of torment, where the unforgiven (because they were not forgiving) are imprisoned "until the last penny is paid". Not forever, for everybody is resurrected at the end of the world, and then proceeds into the City of God (not Heaven - nobody ever "goes to Heaven" - not before the end - Gan Eden/Paradise, where Abraham is found, is the Garden, not the sky) - and not after judgment either: the City of God comes to earth - OR they fail judgment and are thrown into the Lake of Fire for complete destruction - the Second Death. If you want to call the Lake of Fire "Hell" you may, but it is not the same thing as Gehenna. There's no "until" in the Lake of Fire after the end, there is the second death.

But now, before the end, there is Gehenna, and there is Paradise, and Gehenna is a place "until the last penny is paid", according to Jesus, and anyplace "until" is not forever.

That's what's actually IN the Scripture. Christian theology has departed significantly from that revealed information and inserted an eternal Hell before final judgment. Scripture has none. Nor is Scripture particularly clear that the Lake of Fire is eternal suffering for the human who fails judgment. For the Devil, yes, but for the human, it is the second death - whose exact nature is not described. It COULD be writhing forever in flames, but utter destruction of body and spirit - complete dissolution in the flames - is an equally valid reading.

Everything further in the Christian theology is adding to the text. You can do that if you want to. I will not. I won't even add the Scandinavian word "Hell", as it is superfluous and uneccessary. There is Sheol/Hades, composed of Gehenna and Paradise, and there is the City of God and the Lake of Fire. That is what is revealed. And after death, the prison of the unforgiving (and therefore unforgiven) sinner is described by Jesus as an "until" place, not a "forever" place.

I go with what HE said, and therefore I ignore the accreted tradition of Scandinavian "Hell" and "going to Heaven", neither of which are revealed, or present in Scripture at all. If one wants to call the Lake of Fire "Hell", that's fine, but the contours of Hell are not as the tradition describes, but as John described in his Revelation.

And Gehenna is a place "until the last penny is paid", which is not Scandinavian or Christian Hell either. That's why, just as the word "Hell" can be applied to the Lake of Fire, the word "Purgatory" can be applied to Gehenna. Since the latter seems to give people the hives, for the sake of conversation I am willing to just use "Gehenna" and leave off the Latin equivalent. But I'm not then willing to allow my interlocutor to import the Scandinavian word "Hell", with the concepts that come with it, unless he ties it to the Lake of Fire. Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are not the same place. They serve two different functions. No rich man will be calling across the black chasm out of the Lake of Fire, because that is after the end, after final judgment, and he'll be dead, burnt up in the flames, which was clearly not the case in Gehenna.

Gehenna fits Jesus' parables of the rich man and of the unforgiving servant, and also happens to fit Jewish belief. The Jews know that Gehenna - their "Hell" - is purgatorial, not Lake-of-Fire utter destruction.

But we've been over this ground before. What's the point? Christians have added a great deal of their own tradition on top of the actual Scriptures, just as the Jews did, and get stubborn about it.

For my part, I've said a couple of time what the Scriptures actually SAY, and I'm tired of Christian bickering - it's useless to me - so I am signing off this thread now. Believe as you would. If you actually pick up your Bible and carefully read through it all, cover to cover, focusing on what little is actually revealed about the afterlife in the Old Testament (you will find only references to Sheol until 1 Maccabbees, then you will find the efficacity of prayers for the dead). In the New Testament, in two parables of Jesus you find the function and operation of Gehenna, and in the Revelation you see The End, with the City of God descending, and the Lake of Fire and utter destruction after failed judgment.
It's all there. "Hell" - generic Christian Hell is not there. The purgatorial nature of Gehenna IS there, in Jesus parable of the unforgiving servant, and in the efficacity of the prayers for the dead in 1 Maccabbees.

If you don't want to accept that or believe it, don't. It's not skin off my nose. But it IS what is written there, not Scandinavian and Christian "Hell" and "going to Heaven". The only people who "go to Heaven" in the Scriptures are Enoch (maybe), Elijah and Jesus, in the sense that they are taken up by God into the sky. We are not taken up into the sky at death or at the end of the world. At death, we go into the underworld, which is composed of Gehenna, black chasm/abyss/Tartarus, and Paradise, where Abraham is with his bosom. At the end of the world the City comes OUT of Heaven, we don't go up INTO Heaven.
That's what the text SAYS.

But you can read it for yourself. I'm out. Not interested in bickering with Christians. I find it tiresome and useless. Believe what you want to believe. The Book will nevertheless continue to say what it actually SAYS, and unless you adopt what it actually SAYS, you'll be believing something different from what it says. Christian Tradition differs from what is written in the Book.

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Gehenna was actually a place outside Jerusalem were pagan sacrifices were made. The site became a garbage dump.

Greyy said:

Gehenna was actually a place outside Jerusalem were pagan sacrifices were made. The site became a garbage dump.

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There was such a place, and the afterlife destination may have been named after it (more likely vice-versa). In any case when Jesus spoke of being thrown into fiery Gehenna, he was not speaking of being thrown into a physical garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, but of a place to which spirits depart after death.

Vicomte13 said:

There was such a place, and the afterlife destination may have been named after it (more likely vice-versa). In any case when Jesus spoke of being thrown into fiery Gehenna, he was not speaking of being thrown into a physical garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, but of a place to which spirits depart after death.

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I think Jesus was referring to the real nearby place as an example. Gehenna experienced regular fires.

Christ lived well before the world of dumpsters and toilets. I can't imagine a much worse place.

I can't reply to that many since my last post. Here is an overview:

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

In these passages, Paul is talking about how God judges our works after death by using a string of metaphors (we are God's building; works are good and bad materials, etc.). Paul says that if a person builds with good materials, he will receive a reward (verse 14). If he builds with a mixture of good and bad materials, his work is burned up, but he is still saved (verse 15). If he only builds with bad materials, he has destroyed the temple, and God will destroy him (verse 17).

This passage demonstrates several things.
First, it demonstrates that our works serve as a basis for determining our salvation. This is contrary to the erroneous Protestant belief that, once we accept Jesus by faith alone, we are saved. Protestants have no good explanation for why Paul is teaching the Corinthians that our works bear upon our salvation.

Second, the verse demonstrates that, if a person does both good and bad works, his bad works are punished, but he is still saved. The Greek phrase for "suffer loss" (zemiothesetai) means "to be punished." This means the man undergoes an expiation of temporal punishment for his bad works (sins) but is still saved. The phrase “but only” or “yet so” (in Greek, houtos) means "in the same manner." This means that the man must pass through the fire in the same way that his bad works passed through the fire, in order to expiate himself of the things that led him to produce the bad works in the first place.

This demonstrates that there is punishment after death, followed by salvation. The Church calls this purification “Purgatory.” If accepting Jesus as Savior by faith alone during one's life were true, there would be no punishment after death for those who are saved. Your sins would already be washed away. This passage proves that there is punishment and forgiveness after death, followed by salvation. This biblical teaching of a post-death punishment by fire which is followed by salvation is inimical to Protestant theology.

Matthew 12:31-32 More verses that has objectors to purgatory stumped. This passage makes reference to forgiveness after death: something that is anathema to Protestantism. This particular super-serious sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) is not forgiven, yet it is clear that Jesus is presupposing that there are other sins that are forgiven after death: which is one of the tenets of purgatory: forgiveness for and temporal punishment of sins after death for the person who is already saved and will inevitably make it to heaven in due course. To put it another way:

Just read the words: "He will not be forgiven either in this age or in the age to come." Matt. 12:32. The phrase “in the age” (in Greek, en to mellonti) refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30; 20:34-35; Eph. 2:1). Jesus is saying that one can be forgiven either in this age (earthly life) or in the age to come (after death). Those who are in heaven (which is in the age to come) have no need for forgiveness (true), and those who are in hell (which is in the age to come) cannot be forgiven (true). Therefore, there must be another state in the age to come where we can be forgiven (true). This is purgatory. To put it another way:

If sins can be pardoned in the “age to come” (the afterlife), again, in the nature of things, this must be in purgatory. We would laugh at a man who said that he would not marry in this world or the next (as if he could in the next — see Mark 12:25). If this sin cannot be forgiven after death, it follows that there are others which can be. Accordingly, this interpretation was held by St. Augustine, [17] St. Gregory the Great, [18] Bede, [19] and St. Bernard, [20] among others.

It doesn't fit Protestant theology. The general consensus of the Early Church Fathers doesn't fit Protestant theology either.

Luke 23:39-43 Another stumper. Redacted previously.

Geisler writes (p. 339):


The problem is that “paradise” is simply not heaven! It has to be something other than heaven, for the simple and obvious reason that Jesus didn’t ascend to heaven until “forty days” after His Resurrection (Acts 1:3). Jesus wasn’t even risen from the dead yet (let alone ascended to heaven) on the “today” he referred to in this passage (which was Good Friday). Jesus Himself confirmed to Mary Magdalene shortly after His Resurrection, two days later, that He had “not yet ascended to the Father” (Jn 20:17). Therefore, neither He nor the good thief were in heaven on Good Friday. Why, then, does Geisler argue the contrary, and make out that this a supposed proof for immediate entrance to heaven upon death (which, in turn, would refute purgatory, if true in all cases)?

Moreover, we know what Jesus was doing between the time of His death on the cross and His Resurrection. He wasn’t in heaven (with the good thief). He was preaching to the “captives” (Eph 4:8), and the “spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) who were in the third state of Hades, or Sheol (which is not hell)

Geisler digs deeper into the mire of his own serious category error by stating on the same page:
Scripture teaches that death is final, and a destiny of woe or bliss is immediate.
To cap it off, Geisler refers to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, which I dealt with last time. He writes (p. 339):
Likewise, unbelievers enter hell at the moment of death. [in context, referring to the wicked rich man of Luke 16:19 ff.]
This is hopelessly confused and self-contradictory, on many levels. First of all, Jesus expressly noted that the rich man was “in “Hades” (Lk 16:22-23), not hell. Hades (Old Testament, Sheol) is the netherworld, or abode of the dead before the death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Christ. This was obviously before that time because Jesus told the story to His disciples as a past event, and He had not yet died on the cross. Hades is contrasted with hell (“lake of fire”) in Revelation 20:14.

This third state in the afterlife, Hades (or whatever one wishes to call it), cannot be equated with hell, because Jesus went there (or so it seems quite reasonable to assume; where else would it be?) and “preached to the spirits in prison” (1 Pet 3:19) and “captives” (Eph 4:8) in “the lower parts of the earth” (Eph 4:9), whom He then “led” out of their captivity “when he ascended on high” (Eph 4:8).

None of that makes the slightest bit of sense if this is hell (the place of eternal punishment), because the inhabitants there are damned forever and cannot ever be led out of hell. If they could be, that would be salvation attainable after death (or perhaps even a form of universalism), which Catholicism doesn’t teach at all. We believe that all in purgatory are already saved and inevitably destined for heaven as their final state.

Thus, we must conclude that many saved people after death, before the time of Christ, were in Hades, and were led out of it to heaven (whereas no one can be liberated from hell). And this means that an immediate “destiny of woe or bliss” for all people is a false and unbiblical statement.

“Armstrong vs. Geisler” #2: Purgatory (Lk 23:43)

Greyy said:

I think Jesus was referring to the real nearby place as an example. Gehenna experienced regular fires.

Christ lived well before the world of dumpsters and toilets. I can't imagine a much worse place.

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So, the spirits of the dead went into a garbage dump? Where was the black chasm fixed between it and Abraham on the other side?

40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The work that we do is not effort based works that are accounted, but works of faith in Jesus Christ. Faith works are to stay in Christ and to keep the faith even onto death.

To look/focus on Jesus as our passover lamb and to believe in him are the works of faith. Outside of the works of faith, are fleshly regimented ordinances that account for nothing because the merit of worth comes down to what I can do to make reparations for my sins and the short answer is absolutely nothing.

PollyJetix said:

I don't see the idea of purgatory in the Scriptures.

It seems to me to be an invention of humans who wanted to make a way for sinful people to get to heaven, bypassing the work of the Cross.

Thus, the idea of purgatory is not only non-Biblical, but ANTI-Christ.

If we can add to the work of Christ, by paying for "some" of our sins in purgatory,
then why can we not pay for all of them, eventually, in hellfire, and at some future point in eternity, escape hell?

Add to this, the idea of canonization of saints.
The Scriptures imply not at all, that some Christians who have died have achieved a higher "sainthood" (by going straight to heaven, and skipping purgatory) than those of us who are in Christ, here on earth.

The Bible calls all Christians, saints.

The ideas of canonized saints and purgatory are interdependent, and I can find no support for either in the Scriptures.

What say you?

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I feel like Purgatory is a belief because the thought of only two choices—eternal torture for something like not believing or eternity of just worshipping God as implied in the Bible—aren't exactly two choices that most people would pick, and hell is considered unjust and horrible to many (as it should be IMO).

We are justified by the blood of the lamb of God and we are sanctified by the works of faith in Christ. Works of faith are not outward fleshly works that we can boast about or think to gain merits or favour from God, for it is by Grace we are saved.

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now Paul defines the works of faith as follows.......

6For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. 7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

The works of faith that Paul kept unto death, were not the flesh works. As a Pharisee Paul counted the flesh works as rubbish.

So Paul talks about keeping the works of faith in Christ and making Christ the centre of his lifelong observance and experience.

Notice in all of Paul's final testimoney of his works of faith, he never mentions what he did in terms of fleshly works to have concluded that he had finished his race. In fact looking onto Jesus by making him the focal figure of faith, enabled Paul to claim that he kept the works of faith in Jesus even onto death, meaning he stayed loyal to Jesus to the very end.

If Christians maintain Jesus as their focal passover lamb and abide in him, then what Jesus did as far as outward works is accounted onto their behalves and so there is no condemnation by God the Father towards those who remain under the truth and grace of Christ as the passover lamb. The justice arm of God passes over us and this means condemnation like purgatory doctrine are definitely out of the question.

If a faithful focuses on Christ all their lives and abides in him even onto death, and then external forces try to lead them to believe that they will go to purgatory to do time as their race of faith is incomplete, are not only being lied to, but they are being robbed of the comfort and joy in this life that the promise from the Spirit is through works of faith in Christ Jesus.

Vicomte13 said:

It does not. Hell does not appear in the Scriptures at all. It is a Scandinavian term.

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I'll clarify.

Gehenna refers to the place/state THAT WE CUSTOMARILY CALL 'Hell.' It does not refer to the alleged place/state that's called Purgatory.

Albion said:

I'll clarify.

Gehenna refers to the place/state THAT WE CUSTOMARILY CALL 'Hell.' It does not refer to the alleged place/state that's called Purgatory.

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You clarification is based on your tradition.
Unfortunately, your tradition lacks any place of purgation and payment, but Jesus himself in his parable of the unforgiving servant clearly speaks of the soul prison where the unforgiving are kept by God and tormented UNTIL the last penny of unforgiven debt is paid. Your tradition says that's "until forever", turning
"until" Gehenna unto "forever" Hell - but "until" doesn't mean "forever" in English, Greek, Latin or Hebrew. It means "up to that point in time", and implies "not after".

Purgatorial Gehenna meshes with what Jesus said, and with 1 Maccabees also.

But now I'm just repeating myself, because I am running up against a hard, fast, deeply embedded - and erroneous - Christian tradition.

So all we're going to do is just go back and forth here with "Is so!" "Is not!" And that's pointless. I'm going now. Peace.

Vicomte13 said:

You clarification is based on your tradition.

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No. I get that saying such a thing helps prop up your view, but it's not so.

Albion said:

No. I get that saying such a thing helps prop up your view, but it's not so.

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It is so. And you are stubborn in your error. Peace.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

It is difficult to have a meaningful discussion when our minds only let us look at things from one perspective. You missed the whole point of my post; that even those who are closest to God can fall away because the stain of original sin causes us to rebel against God. The devil does not contend over the souls of the lost; only the faithful, and is ever tempting and trying to entice us away from God, and as a result we miss the mark each and every day.

I believe firmly that the concept of eternal salvation; once saved, always saved, it one of the mightiest weapons the devil has to deceive mankind into thinking their spiritual journey is complete and that they are fully sanctified, even before entering the gates of paradise.

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We walk by faith not sight.

John 19:30

When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

If someone wants to believe in some medieval dogma where you roast like a marshmallow to pay for your sins and the church can sell you “indulgences” to shorten the time you spend there (like they run the joint or something), be my guest. But as for me, I’ll go with Jesus on this one.

purgatory-scriptural-or-not-or-worse

or bbq wurst ?

Vicomte13 said:

Unfortunately, your tradition lacks any place of purgation and payment, but Jesus himself in his parable of the unforgiving servant clearly speaks of the soul prison where the unforgiving are kept by God and tormented UNTIL the last penny of unforgiven debt is paid.

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Oh my goodness, that is not what that parable is about. Have you ever said the Lord’s Prayer (The Our Father)? Remember the part where you say, “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” Keep that in mind and read Matthew 18:21-35 again. It isn’t about purgatory; it’s about the fact that we cannot ask God forgiveness if we are not willing to forgive others.