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What about the angel in Revelations offering up the prayers of the sants from his thurifer ?
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Is ‘purgatory’ Biblical?
Jesus spoke very clearly of only two choices in the afterlife in Luke 16:19-31. There we find that a certain rich man had died as an unbeliever and was "in torment" (Luke 16:23). Jesus made it clear that the afterlife offers two options, and that both heaven and hell are eternal.
Matthew 7:13-14 also notes, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Again, only two options are provided. There is no third option.
Purgatory is an extra-biblical teaching developed beyond what Jesus and the apostles presented in the Bible. As such, it lacks biblical authority and is to be rejected. While the idea of a "middle ground" may find historical support in other places or seem sensible to many, the fact is that it is not supported by the Bible—the very book that forms the basis for Christian belief. Believers are not called to offer prayers or works on behalf of the dead. The dead's eternity has already been decided. Instead, we must seek to grow in Christ and share Him with others.
Is praying to ‘canonized saints’ Biblical?
The Greek word for saints is an interesting one. It is the word “hagios” and means “most holy thing” so a saint is a holy person but wait, aren’t all men sinners, even after they are saved? Yes, that’s true but God sees us as having Jesus own righteousness because Christ became sin for us so that when the Father now sees us, He sees us as having the righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 5:21). A saint is anyone who has been saved and then they are set apart for holy use.
Praying to Mary and other dead saints is not biblical and praying to anyone other than God is idolatry. Nowhere in Scripture does it say pray to dead saints. Nowhere in Scripture does it say ask dead saints to pray for you. Those who have died in the Lord have "ceased from their labor." They have already "finished the race." (see Rev 14:13 and 2 Tim 4:7). Jesus told us clearly who can pray with us. He said in Matthew 18:19, "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven." Notice the important clause "on earth." The people who pray together must be "on earth." This definitely rules out those who have left this earth.
When Jesus taught the disciples to pray, He never encourages the disciples to ask Abraham or Moses or Noah to pray for them. Asking the deceased to pray for us is unheard of in the Bible, and contradicts the teaching of the Bible.
Timothy 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings—a human, the Messiah Jesus.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Philippians 4:6-7 - Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
I am relieved to hear it, Albion. I could have sworn some youngsters on here were actually boasting along those lines ! It's good to know they would be a tiny minority.But for the umpteenth time, NO ONE has been arguing for that view. It's meaningless to this conversation.
Everyone does, Paul.
I notice that no one prayed to the saints themselves, for intercession.
The place where purgation occurs, the prison where the pennies are paid, is called Gehenna by Jesus. You don't like to hear Gehenna latinized into "Purgatory". Ok. I'm fine with sticking with "Gehenna". Same thing, so why struggle over translations among languages?No, my logic is the Orthodox teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church, which goes back to the Apostles. If I understand correctly, the Roman idea of Purgatory appeared somewhere around the Medieval times.
Possibly because Gehenna refers to Hell and not Purgatory.The place where purgation occurs, the prison where the pennies are paid, is called Gehenna by Jesus. You don't like to hear Gehenna latinized into "Purgatory". Ok. I'm fine with sticking with "Gehenna". Same thing, so why struggle over translations among languages?
I wouldn't be interested in pushing it to someone not interested in NDEs
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon (count) ye also yourselves to be dead (already!) indeed (completely!) unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (sounds like Romans 7 again!)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead (Who's He?) dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For (because!) if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die (not just go to purgatory!): but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, (only then!) ye shall live.
I don't know what NDEs is?
Or could she just being firing salvos at what she TOTALLY MISUNDERSTANDS what the doctrine of Purgatory means.
Near Death Experiences.I don't know what NDEs is?
I wouldn't be interested in pushing it to someone not interested in NDEs, but I have to ask you, since you responded, were you not impressed by the deeply-emotional body language of, for instance, the missionary pilot, Dale Black, Kenny ? There is a better, full-length coverage of the whole interview somewhere on YouTube, but also other interviews with him. Anyway, each one to his own. No sense in trying to be impressed by them against your natural inclination.
Which is why NDE's should never be taken as gospel truth.
There is no Scripture that gives us the right to expect to shape up after death, if we have not chosen to die to our carnal natures in this life.(I said: )You can't be carnal and live after the flesh, and live.
Not even through the fires of "purgatory."
There's no route by which you can live after your fleshly, carnal nature, and get to heaven.
You have to die to that carnal nature.
(LOTE said: ) That's exactly what I have been saying. Purgation after death is simply the final dying to the carnal nature. Go back and read my posts. It's all about the change in our natures.
There is no Scripture that gives us the right to expect to shape up after death, if we have not chosen to die to our carnal natures in this life.
The Scripture (1 Corinthians 3) that speaks of works of wood, hay, and stubble, that will be burned up, are not talking about paying for our sins. It's talking about trying to build the Church of God with the wrong stuff. Faulty preaching, etc. Those who have done their best, but fell short of perfection in their ministry, will not be rejected on the basis of not understanding the Scriptures perfectly, or preaching imperfectly. They get into heaven. But they get no reward for their labor, because they labored mistakenly.
However, if anyone tries to build upon the foundation of Christ in a way that actually is destructive to the Body, him God will destroy.
That passage is not talking about every soul facing purgation after death.
The subject is building the church, versus tearing it down.
Those who build with the wrong materials, will suffer the loss of their rewards, but will not be lost themselves.
But those who refuse to build, but instead tear down the body of believers, by using their tongues wrongly, etc... those face not purgatory, but hell.
Kindly address the issue I said in the post you responded to: what about our natures? Do you think we have to have our very nature changed in order to be in the presence of God and participate in the love of the Trinity?
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
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