Purgatory is Scriptural

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Purgatory is Scriptural

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

My FULL Catholic brother....


You revealed SOOOOO much here about the epistemology of the RC denomination.


You state, "Purgatory is Scriptural" and then to support that claim, you offer not one Scripture - but RATHER give quotes from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Denomination.



Pax!


- Josiah

 

[Renton405]

I dont think you understand what I was posting. The whole post is based on the verse Matthew 12:31-32.

I posted the CCC on it because it has a good explanation on the scriptural evidence of purgatory.

You missed the point of the post

 

[JimfromOhio]

I dont think you understand what I was posting. The whole post is based on the verse Matthew 12:31-32.

I posted the CCC on it because it has a good explanation on the scriptural evidence of purgatory.

You missed the point of the post

You mean this? 31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Nothing there refers to what you are talking about. Confusing with resisting the Holy Spirit against salvation with Purgatory? We can't be saved without the Holy Spirit and with regard to salvation, we are touched and cleansed from SINS after the Holy Spirit convicts us to repent and come Christ in faith.
People can either acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit to repent and come to Christ in faith. OR Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 1 Thessalonians 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit. Are people willing to acknowledge the conviction of the Holy Spirit is the question. Since sin often ignores the Holy Spirit... not many will acknowledge. People will (as 2 Timothy 3:7 says) always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. James 1:12 Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. James 5:7 [ Patience in Suffering ] Be patient, then, brothers, until the Lord's coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop and how patient he is for the autumn and spring rains. Romans 8:18 [ Future Glory ] I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance. Works is really about knowing that you are really saved and that you will go directly into heaven.

"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what as lost."* Luke 19:10 (Many are called, but few are chosen.) The rest of mankind... still did not repent.* Revelation 9:20 "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." (Hebrews 4:7c). The sinner's heart, for selfish reasons deliberately hardens against the Holy Spirit's conviction. If they continue reject the conviction of the Holy Spirit, they are to embrace error of the consequence which really is very heart-hardening. To be saved a sinner must submit to the Holy Spirit's conviction to repent and be changed. To enter the kingdom of God, our Lord explained, a sinner must be born again (John 3:3-7). Later in John 6:65, Jesus went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

Jesus is saying that He cannot do our repenting for us. He died for our sins, now it is up to us to pick up the cross. "Salvation is free, ... but discipleship will cost you your life." (Dietrich Bonhoeffer) A disciple must understand that God is both holy and loving; that I am a sinner, are made in the image of God; that Christ's death was the substitute payment for my sin; and that because of Jesus' payment, I am granted access to the heart of God. Luke 14:27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:33 In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

I have many reasons why I am not a Roman Catholic follower and one of the main reason why I am not a member is because of "Doctrine of Purgatory".

 

[sunlover1]

2 Maccabees 12:42-45
42 and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen.
43 He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.


I think this is what the thread starter was referring to when he said scriptural.
Not sure though, I'm protestant.

sunlover

 

[BigNorsk]

Yes I think that is part of it. However, I think we need to look just a little broader than that.

2Ma 12:39-45 KJVA And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. (40) Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. (41) All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, (42) Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. (43) And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: (44) For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. (45) And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

If we go to verse 40, it seems to me that what is being taught is that those who died were guilty of idolatry.

So in order to say this passage supports the teaching of purgatory. One simply needs to show that according to Catholic teachings, it is possible to be commiting idolatry and at the same time die, as the Cathechism says, "in God's grace and friendship". Seems a bit inconsistent because I thought the Catholic church taught idolatry was a mortal sin and dying with it unconfessed did not result in one going to purgatory.

Also we see that the satisfaction according to the passage really doesn't take place in purgatory. It would appear based on verses 43-45 that it has to do with the resurrection. It really doesn't say these men were someplace paying for their sin through suffering but their suffering was cut short due to Judas' sin offering on their behalf.

So I have real troubles shoehorning the passage into the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Marv

 

[savedandhappy1]

http://javascript<b></b>:openWindow('cr/1032.htm');

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

Psalms 49:6-7
6They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

You can't redeem or ransom anyone.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

So I have real troubles shoehorning the passage into the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.

Marv

Me, too.

That's not to say that "purgatory" isn't an interesting theory, but this seems to be extremely weak "confirmation" - if at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

*sigh* you really need to re-read the post ..

Matthew:12:31-32 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Here is my post below(the main part):


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

The actual point that I am making is that Purgatory is an invented fable, made up by a group in the Vatican for their own purposes. If it is not taught in the New Testament, then it is false doctrine and puts people who believe in it in great spiritual danger.

 

[Montanaman]

The actual point that I am making is that Purgatory is an invented fable, made up by a group in the Vatican for their own purposes. If it is not taught in the New Testament, then it is false doctrine and puts people who believe in it in great spiritual danger.

The real fable is your assertions about the origins of the doctrine of Purgatory.

Another fable is that everything a Christian holds to be true must be explicitly "taught" in the Bible. If that were true, you'd have an explicit verse saying so.

 

[savedandhappy1]

​

I object to the doctrine of Purgatory because by stating that this teaching denies the sufficiency and full efficacy of Christ’s atoning sacrifice. To say that our sins are expiated by our suffering is an insult to the cross of Christ since it says that the cross was not sufficient to cleanse us of our sins. It says that we must suffer, that we must do something to have our sins fully cleansed. Instead, I maintain that Jesus’ sacrifice alone is what justifies and removes from us all guilt. We look to the cross and to the cross alone for the complete forgiveness of our sins and, though our works will one day be judged, we have passed out of condemnation (Rom. 8:1). Our works reflect on rewards in heaven, not to get us to heaven. Jesus bore all our sins (1 Pet. 2:24). There are no sins left for purgatory to cleanse because it was all done by Jesus on the cross. This is why Jesus said, "It is finished," (John 19:30). In Greek the term "it is finished" is "tetelestai." It was a term used in legal contexts to state that a debt had been paid in full. "Papyri receipts for taxes have been recovered with the word tetelestai written across them, meaning "paid in full." (Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc., 1983, 1985). Therefore, there is no need for purgatory.

 

[MarkEvan]

May I ask a question, what is the purpose of purgatory? You may have answered this already, but if you have not then please could you tell me, I have talked with a few catholics on this subject and therefore have an idea but would appreciate a clarification from your position.

Thankyou

Mark

 

[Trento]

May I ask a question, what is the purpose of purgatory? You may have answered this already, but if you have not then please could you tell me, I have talked with a few catholics on this subject and therefore have an idea but would appreciate a clarification from your position.

Thankyou

Mark

Purgatory is "like a refiner's fire" (Mal 3:2). It refines and purifies those who at the moment of death are neither good enough for an immediate heaven nor bad enough for hell. "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven"

 

[i'm the bad guy]

We all die, so does it really matter? I don't mean to sound too cynical but why argue it? I suppose debate is fine and healthy, but I think we all miss the point. The main moral out of this thread seems to be, "Get into God's grace." If you aren't even willing (or even if you are) to accept the grace of God then it really doesn't matter if our souls go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. The devils greatest trick was not to convince us that he didn't exist, it was to convince us to become religious. By becoming religious we don't focus on what Christ wants us to do, but rather what we want our neighbors to do. Then again I am a human being and I don't have the answers so that is somewhat comforting.

love each other,
i'm the bad guy