Purgatory is Scriptural

[Renton405]

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

 

[lilymarie]

I have no war with you brother if you want to believe in purgatory. I pray when a loved one passes away, and then mourn.

However, continued prayer all my life? I don't know about that. How long does one need to pray for their loved ones?

 

[Atha]

ok.. Jesus said, God is the God of the living, there for there are none dead...

purgatory is the first light of God's Gifts, when we are within His Being to say, He gives us more than future, that we find our place in Heaven... you know how our body is just holding us? well the life that is, doesnt really get hurt, it cant, but God can give a body, if you dont have one He will, and keep giving, in just His True Peace, that He is there, is amoung all miracle, Ever Highest of Heaven, Eternity more than i know... and what else could purgatory mean? how about when we begin to love again, or should i just say, when we begin to love... for i have thought to, there is something like a line... but you do stay, until your in Heaven! i would say the second step of the believers... try to make more then...

 

[ArcticFox]

Hi Renton!

The title of your post is that purgatory is Scriptural. I read your post, but I wonder what your definition of 'scriptural' is. When I use the word 'scriptural' it means that there is Scripture which confirms something.

Where is the scripture for purgatory? Your post included references ot extra-biblical texts. Do you consider those proof texts as 'Scriptural evidence?'

 

[JimfromOhio]

The Rich Man and Lazarus
There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

The concept of PURGATORY teachings means that those who have accumulated sins which have not been sufficiently atoned for through penance must endure the sufferings of purgatory until the soul is refined and God's justice has been satisfied. The torments of this halfway hell can vary in intensity, severity, and duration depending upon the guilt, impurity, lack of proper penance, or sorrow of the sufferer. This is WHERE I DISAGREE this is scriptural because the Bible declares that "Christ himself. . .had died once for sins". Those who teaches PURGATORY teaches that if you have more good works than bad works you could get to Heaven but very few people go directly to Heaven.

This is my belief regarding this topic: Take out Purgatory and it’s no longer a Roman Catholic This is where Martin Luther argued in his 95 Theses. The harm of indulgences, selling forgiveness for money.

This is as far as I will go when discussing this topic.

 

[dave90]

Hi Renton!

The title of your post is that purgatory is Scriptural. I read your post, but I wonder what your definition of 'scriptural' is. When I use the word 'scriptural' it means that there is Scripture which confirms something.

Where is the scripture for purgatory? Your post included references ot extra-biblical texts. Do you consider those proof texts as 'Scriptural evidence?'

It is. Its in the in Maccabees 2, but Protestents do not believe it is was inspired, though Catholic's do.

 

[JimfromOhio]

This is where I will obey God than men.

 

[Zeena]

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

This is NOT the cannon of Scripture! =P

And to boot, it goes against the teachings entrusted to us as Christians!

2 Corinthians 4:14
Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[a_ntv]

I believe to the purgatory also for a personal though.

2Cor 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Is my becaming into his likeness from one degree of glory to another already complete?

No, it is not.
It will be completed, for a sinner as I'm, not in this life, but in the next, very before to see Him face to face.
That is what is called Purgatory

Revelation is clear:
21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, any one who practices abomination or falsehood.

To enter to see Him face to face we shall be pure. Not only be forgiven, but made 100% holy by the Holy Spirit. That is the sanctification, to became Christ-like.
It is by far more, than salvation, that is only the starting point. If this process cannot be concluded in this earth, it will be ended inthe Purgatory. Because nothing unclean shall enter in the Heaven.

But of course this cannot be agreed by a protestant, because Mr Luther denied the necessity to became Christ-like, preaching that only the first step, salvation, is enough ("Be a sinner, and sin boldly, but believe more boldly still"). And because the Scripture was against him, he canceled one part of the Scripture (the Macabeis)

 

[PETE_]

The Father sees the righteousness of Christ when He looks upon His children. Even our most righteous acts are as filthy rags. Christ was perfect, so the Father sees all those in Christ in His light.

 

[BigNorsk]

This is NOT the cannon of Scripture! =P

And to boot, it goes against the teachings entrusted to us as Christians!

Zeena,

The quote is referencing this passage of scripture. It didn't give it chapter and verse but here it is.

Mat 12:31-32 NET. For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Marv

 

[Margim]

This is where I will obey God than men.

As much as I also disagree with the original post, wouldn't it be more accurate to say this is where you obey your understanding of God rather than another person's understanding of God?

I'm sure the original poster would make the same claim, after all

 

[Trento]

Hi Renton!

The title of your post is that purgatory is Scriptural. I read your post, but I wonder what your definition of 'scriptural' is. When I use the word 'scriptural' it means that there is Scripture which confirms something.

Where is the scripture for purgatory? Your post included references ot extra-biblical texts. Do you consider those proof texts as 'Scriptural evidence?'

If you Protestants deny that the Books of Machabees are two of the inspired books of the Bible then you must admit them as historical records of Orthodox Jewish faith in praying for the dead.


The Yahrzeit Organization -
PastQuestion’s and Answers

Click on Is this what Catholics do and you will find this.


Q) I was reading about the Kaddish and in it you state: "The Rabbis teach us that Kaddish is a source of merit for the soul. Also, when you give charity in the name of a deceased, it can abolish evil decrees." My question: Is this like what the Catholics do in their belief of purgatory? When you say "charity... [abolishing] evil decrees," is this comparable to the Catholic doctrine of indulgences? Are these prayers for purification of the dead, or are they used to provide a greater experience of peace and happiness for the dead? Also, when did the Kaddish come into being? Is it Scriptural (Torah or otherwise) or is it a tradition? Please let me know. I am really interested in so many things on your website

A) If a soul is in purgatory, the recitation of kaddish or the act of charity can help to get that soul out. The way this works is that the reward for the act of sanctifying G-d's name through reciting the kaddish or doing an act of kindness is transferred to the soul in purgatory by the person who does the mitzva by thinking, before the act, "I'm doing this act of charity or reciting this kaddish in the merit of ________." The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic. It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E.
The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the custom of kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion.

Which proves that these books were part of the O.T. Canon

 

[dave90]

the book of James gives reference to maccabees when it talks about annointing the sick only in maccabees it talks about annointing the dead.

Both in James and Maccabees it says to annoint with OIL.

Obviously James must have read the book Maccabees where he got this from. The same book that talks about praying for the dead.

just because luther denouced it all PROTESTents must.


IF James didnt denouce it then neither should you

 

[JimfromOhio]

I don't have any problems with Maccabees however, I disagree that Maccabees's letters should be part of the Holy Scriptures due to contradictions.

 

[a_ntv]

I don't have any problems with Maccabees however, I disagree that Maccabees's letters should be part of the Holy Scriptures due to contradictions.

You are over the scripture to decide what is inspired and what is not?

Yea, that is the teaching of Mr Luther: the kingdom of the self

 

[ArcticFox]

It is. Its in the in Maccabees 2, but Protestents do not believe it is was inspired, though Catholic's do.

Hey dave90!

I love your posts so far. Can't say I agree, but they are very respectable. Keep up the good conversation.

Can you post the texts? Even though they are not part of the Protestant Canon, I would still like to see them. Perhaps they are not so convincing even if I were to read them, or perhaps they are clear; I do not know, but seeing them could help to clarify whether the teaching really is so clearly laid out.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

To say that something is Scriptural you need to provide evidence of that from the New Testament itself. You have not provided it in your post. If Jesus and the Apostles didn't teach it, and it is not reflected in the New Testament scriptures then it has to be a lot of nonsense, made up by a group of bored monks who sought to find a way that people could possibly escape from hell once they found themselves there. Of course, the Medieval church made pots of money getting gullible people to pay out money for Indulgences and Papal pardons to that they would escape purgatory. How do you think they were able to finance all their great churches and buildings around the world, especially in the Vatican?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611

To say that something is Scriptural you need to provide evidence of that from the New Testament itself. You have not provided it in your post. If Jesus and the Apostles didn't teach it, and it is not reflected in the New Testament scriptures then it has to be a lot of nonsense, made up by a group of bored monks who sought to find a way that people could possibly escape from hell once they found themselves there. Of course, the Medieval church made pots of money getting gullible people to pay out money for Indulgences and Papal pardons so that they would escape purgatory. How do you think they were able to finance all their great churches and buildings around the world, especially in the Vatican?

 

[Renton405]

To say that something is Scriptural you need to provide evidence of that from the New Testament itself. You have not provided it in your post. If Jesus and the Apostles didn't teach it, and it is not reflected in the New Testament scriptures then it has to be a lot of nonsense, made up by a group of bored monks who sought to find a way that people could possibly escape from hell once they found themselves there. Of course, the Medieval church made pots of money getting gullible people to pay out money for Indulgences and Papal pardons so that they would escape purgatory. How do you think they were able to finance all their great churches and buildings around the world, especially in the Vatican?

*sigh* you really need to re-read the post ..

Matthew:12:31-32 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. (32) Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Here is my post below(the main part):


As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608