Purgatory - in the fires of hell - for the saints??

[BobRyan]

Do you believe that those who are going to heaven - must be subjected to the "fires of hell" in Purgatory?

OR do you prefer to think of it more as "Paradise Purgatory" as we see described here - Monday at 11:15 PM #23 ?
(an option that would leave no room for indulgences to have ever been invented).

Either way some key distinctives in Catholic theology come to light in the doctrine of purgatory. Yesterday at 2:50 PM #74

According to Catholic teaching you cannot go to heaven or purgatory - if you die with mortal sin on your soul - having not been absolved from it in this life.

For example - what some of them call "mild envy" Coveting is a "venial" sin according to Catholic tradition.

Murder and worshiping false gods - a mortal sin.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

They say that venial sins do not have to be confessed to your priest.

==========================


From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."

Father Echert

(more of the same here - Jun 20, 2016 #7 )

One Catholic poster - handed me this -

There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory. Rather, Catholics see what we know of God's salvific work as compatible with the doctrine of Purgatory, maybe even hinted at... As I said, though, even CS Lewis went so far as to say our souls demanded Purgatory. And in contrast to what Ellen G. White suggests, saying:

"Then the way was prepared for the introduction of still another invention of paganism, which Rome named purgatory, and employed to terrify the credulous and superstitious multitudes. By this heresy is affirmed the existence of a place of torment, in which the souls of such as have not merited eternal damnation are to suffer punishment for their sins, and from which, when freed from impurity, they are admitted to heaven." (The Great Controversy 58.3)

Note some of the statements made there

"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

And

"Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”


Purgatory is about making satisfaction for sins - punishment, not about getting forgiveness. Monday at 11:13 AM #7



=======================================

Heb 9:27 "it is appointed unto man ONCE to die - and then comes judgment" - not "and then comes a second chance and paying for your own sins - then heaven"

=====================================

In that "paradise purgatory" option - link included above - I point to 3 strong reasons that making up such a teaching of purgatory (whether the paradise-purgatory form or the "fires of hell torture" purgatory form) would appeal to some groups.

It appears to have at least three purposes.
1. initially to make revenue off of the fear generated from stories told the living about the departed.
2. To emphasize the discretion and good-graces of the RCC in rescuing/saving the already-saved "if the RCC so wishes".
3. To provide a "wide road" to heaven - where all but the worst "get heaven" no matter their character defects.

(Since 1 Cor 3 came up once or twice on this thread - might be good to look at that text --Today at 1:07 AM #631 )

Why 2 Maccabees 12 does not support Purgatory - Tuesday at 2:18 PM #70

Not so subtle features of the Purgatory doctrine -
Tuesday at 2:50 PM #74

 

[Tina W]

If purgatory exists, it is a totally separate place from hell. I always thought of purgatory as kind of like Heaven's Ellis Island or like a quarantine place for people who were Christian enough to not go to hell, but who were luke warm or not on the spiritual level they should be. So I think of it like Ellis Island where the people coming to the US in the past had to go through Ellis Island to get vaccinated and quarantined to make sure they were not carrying diseases etc. before being allowed to enter the US. So I think of purgatory as being like that but instead of physical vaccinations, it's spiritual vaccinations/cleansing before being allowed into the fullness of heaven. Only Christians go to purgatory, sinners go to hell, and once in hell, there is no coming out.

 

[Albion]

If purgatory exists, it is a totally separate place from hell. I always thought of purgatory as kind of like Heaven's Ellis Island or like a quarantine place for people who were Christian enough to not go to hell, but who were luke warm or not on the spiritual level they should be. So I think of it like Ellis Island where the people coming to the US in the past had to go through Ellis Island to get vaccinated and quarantined to make sure they were not carrying diseases etc. before being allowed to enter the US. So I think of purgatory as being like that but instead of physical vaccinations, it's spiritual vaccinations/cleansing before being allowed into the fullness of heaven. Only Christians go to purgatory, sinners go to hell, and once in hell, there is no coming out.

A lot of people who are not familiar with the concept of Purgatory also have this benign opinion of Purgatory that you've described. They do not know that the Catholic Church describes Purgatory as being just like hell except that it doesn't last as long.

 

[Erose]

To start off with I can't respond to your survey, because there is nothing for me to accept. The idea that those in purgatory endure the same torment as those in Gehenna, is a theological speculation, and NOT doctrine of the Catholic Church. The definition of purgatory is very precise and brief, and burning in the same fires as Gehenna is not part of the official definition. It has been speculated that they are the same fires in relation in 1 Cor 3; but this isn't official doctrine. The official definition given in a council which is council of Florence in session is:
Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church's ordinances.

Also, the souls of those who have incurred no stain of sin whatsoever after baptism, as well as souls who after incurring the stain of sin have been cleansed whether in their bodies or outside their bodies, as was stated above, are straightaway received into heaven and clearly behold the triune God as he is, yet one person more perfectly than another according to the difference of their merits. But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.

I included the whole passage as this also includes our understanding of what a lot of Protestants falsely claim that we believe, which is that not all the elect go to purgatory.

Anyway this definition above is ALL that a Catholic has to believe about purgatory. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything else is what is called theological opinion or speculation, and granted over the centuries many opinions gained great popularity, but it cannot be nothing more than opinion.

Personally I don't know what the suffrages are in purgatory, and I really don't care to speculate. But it should be pointed out as well, that if it is lets say a 'fire', I would imagine that it isn't a physical fire. Thus the question would be what is a spiritual fire, and how does it effect the spirit? Of course that is speculation as well isn't it?

 

[Albion]

.

 

[Erose]

If purgatory exists, it is a totally separate place from hell. I always thought of purgatory as kind of like Heaven's Ellis Island or like a quarantine place for people who were Christian enough to not go to hell, but who were luke warm or not on the spiritual level they should be. So I think of it like Ellis Island where the people coming to the US in the past had to go through Ellis Island to get vaccinated and quarantined to make sure they were not carrying diseases etc. before being allowed to enter the US. So I think of purgatory as being like that but instead of physical vaccinations, it's spiritual vaccinations/cleansing before being allowed into the fullness of heaven. Only Christians go to purgatory, sinners go to hell, and once in hell, there is no coming out.

Very good analogy Tina.

 

[BobRyan]

If purgatory exists, it is a totally separate place from hell. I always thought of purgatory as kind of like Heaven's Ellis Island or like a quarantine place for people who were Christian enough to not go to hell, but who were luke warm or not on the spiritual level they should be. So I think of it like Ellis Island where the people coming to the US in the past had to go through Ellis Island to get vaccinated and quarantined to make sure they were not carrying diseases etc. before being allowed to enter the US. So I think of purgatory as being like that but instead of physical vaccinations, it's spiritual vaccinations/cleansing before being allowed into the fullness of heaven. Only Christians go to purgatory, sinners go to hell, and once in hell, there is no coming out.

ok - but in that case you would never ever want to "slip out" of that "get all your shots" program and sneak in without a few of them -- you would always want to stay there to get "all the vaccine". However purgatory is presented as a place where the fires of hell torture the elect - and a loving relative alive on earth would surely want to earn as many indulgences as possible for their departed loved one. No loving caring friend or relative would want a loved one in that torture for one single second if they could avoid it.

================= making satisfication? - or "forgiveness"?

some argue that purgatory is about getting forgiveness of sins -- not about paying your debt for sin - 'making satisfaction' --

so let's see which it is -

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

Council of Florence (1438-1443):

"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with

the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

The Catechism states

1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."



Vatican II documents state:

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"

(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven...It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward."

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

"the condition or state for those who have not totally alienated themselves from God by their sins, but who are temporarily and partially alienated from God while their love is made perfect and they give satisfaction for their sins."

from - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
Purgatorial FIRE
.... In the West the belief in the existence of real fire is common. Augustine (Enarration on Psalm 37, no. 3) speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P.L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory, St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God, there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta". How this fire affects the souls of the departed the Doctors do not know, and in such matters it is well to heed the warning of the Council of Trent when it commands the bishops "to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification', and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion" (Sess. XXV, "De Purgatorio").

 

[BobRyan]

A lot of people who are not familiar with the concept of Purgatory also have this benign opinion of Purgatory that you've described. They do not know that the Catholic Church describes Purgatory as being just like hell except that it doesn't last as long.

If it was simply a "wonderful place" a resort for the elect to get all cleaned up - showered and ready to enter paradise - what would be the incentive for indulgences?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

ok - but in that case you would never ever want to "slip out" of that "get all your shots" program and sneak in without a few of them -- you would always want to stay there to get "all the vaccine".

That analogy seems to me to be almost worse or as bad as even bringing up purgatory.

 

[BobRyan]

To start off with I can't respond to your survey, because there is nothing for me to accept.

Not even "other"???

 

[BobRyan]

The idea that those in purgatory endure the same torment as those in Gehenna, is a theological speculation, and NOT doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Since they admit it is not in the Bible - I guess there is a lot of room for that speculation such that it is "taught" at EWTN that the same fires of hell are torturing the saints as that torture the damned.

The mere fact that this is well within the realm/range of assertion by even the leaders in the group - means that the doctrine does not preclude it and is in fact consistent with that "speculation".

The definition of purgatory is very precise and brief, and burning in the same fires as Gehenna is not part of the official definition.

If it is precise -- then is EWTN teaching heresy - if so - why are there no complaints about such a thing?

It has been speculated that they are the same fires in relation in 1 Cor 3; but this isn't official doctrine.

So then is that heresy - or is it speculation on a very speculative "not in the Bible doctrine" that is well accepted and in perfect harmony with it?

The official definition given in a council which is council of Florence in session is:
Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains;

Since that is the only part of the text that deals with the torment/suffering -- it is easy to see how it is consistent with what EWTN is claiming.

Anyway this definition above is ALL that a Catholic has to believe about purgatory. Nothing more and nothing less. Everything else is what is called theological opinion or speculation, and granted over the centuries many opinions gained great popularity, but it cannot be nothing more than opinion.

The entire idea is composed of opinion and speculation. But what I find interesting is that the entire indulgence idea requires that one view purgatory in a very negative way - such that any and all effort to free someone from it - is fully justified and much-expected.

Personally I don't know what the suffrages are in purgatory, and I really don't care to speculate. But it should be pointed out as well, that if it is lets say a 'fire', I would imagine that it isn't a physical fire.

However you view it - the torture, torment, suffering has to be of such a nature that all effort to acquire indulgences is justified. And under that same logic - the fires of hell burning the damned before they are resurrected (in the Catholic model) would also not be "physical" since their actual body is still physically in the grave. so saying that they both are not physical still leaves the door open to claim that the torture in purgatory is from the same flames that torture the damned as EWTN states.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If it was simply a "wonderful place" a resort for the elect to get all cleaned up - showered and ready to enter paradise - what would be the incentive for indulgences?

Same as always,
power, profit, self-protection... pride? .... deception? ....

 

[Erose]

Not even "other"???

Other is way too vague. You provide a survey about purgatory, and you don't provide the actual definition in your survey of purgatory. It is a canned survey with the intent of setting the debate against something, that there is no debate on.

 

[Erose]

Since they admit it is not in the Bible - I guess there is a lot of room for that speculation such that it is "taught" at EWTN that the same fires of hell are torturing the saints as that torture the damned.

I don't admit that. I think there is quite enough information found in Scripture to implicitly justify Purgatory as a Sola Scripturist. There is in fact more passages for the existence of purgatory than there is for Sola Scriptura.

The mere fact that this is well within the realm/range of assertion by even the leaders in the group - means that the doctrine does not preclude it and is in fact consistent with that "speculation".

No only facits of the doctrine are open to speculation and opinion. Due to 1 Cor 3, using the same fire as gehenna, has some merit to it.

If it is precise -- then is EWTN teaching heresy - if so - why are there no complaints about such a thing?

Nope, not heresy. Heresy is when you teach something counter to the doctrine of the Church. Saying that there is no purgatory is a heresy, asking and coming up with possible answers to how the souls are cleansed in purgatory is theological speculation.

Since that is the only part of the text that deals with the torment/suffering -- it is easy to see how it is consistent with what EWTN is claiming.

Yep

The entire idea is composed of opinion and speculation. But what I find interesting is that the entire indulgence idea requires that one view purgatory in a very negative way - such that any and all effort to free someone from it - is fully justified and much-expected.

Even though indulgence and purgatory are related, they are completely separate doctrines. Indulgence deals with doing acts of mercy and charity to make up for the temporal punishment due to sin. Its like doing community service to make reparation of a crime one commits, instead of going to jail.

However you view it - the torture, torment, suffering has to be of such a nature that all effort to acquire indulgences is justified. And under that same logic - the fires of hell burning the damned before they are resurrected (in the Catholic model) would also not be "physical" since their actual body is still physically in the grave. so saying that they both are not physical still leaves the door open to claim that the torture in purgatory is from the same flames that torture the damned as EWTN states.

Possibly, but it isn't the only possible answer to the question.

 

[Albion]

If it was simply a "wonderful place" a resort for the elect to get all cleaned up - showered and ready to enter paradise - what would be the incentive for indulgences?

That's a rhetorical question, I am thinking, since punishment would essentially be taken out of the picture.

 

[Erose]

ok - but in that case you would never ever want to "slip out" of that "get all your shots" program and sneak in without a few of them -- you would always want to stay there to get "all the vaccine". However purgatory is presented as a place where the fires of hell torture the elect - and a loving relative alive on earth would surely want to earn as many indulgences as possible for their departed loved one. No loving caring friend or relative would want a loved one in that torture for one single second if they could avoid it.

Again, the Church doesn't teach torture. It teaches cleansing. Whether that cleansing includes some form of pain, is speculative. It definitely won't be physical pain, as there is no physical body to experience pain. The pain I would imagine be the pain that we should feel when we have hurt a loved one, the pain of guilt and sadness for hurting a loved one (and we are talking about God here) is usually much greater than physical pain. I would prefer to walk through a fire, than to feel the pain of hurting my wife, through lets say adultery.

When speaking of spirits, we have to think about what things effect the mind/spirit, and not what effects the flesh. Does that make sense here? So what hurts our soul? Many have speculated that the greatest pain in hell, isn't the fire; but rather despair and the ability to never feel love, and know what good is. There wont be despair during the purging of the soul, as the soul will know that heaven is his ultimate award, so I would say like I wrote above, it will probably be guilt, of knowing all the evil that our sins have committed in the world.

 

[topcare]

I agree with the great CS Lewis:

I have a notion that, apart from actual pain, men and women are quite diversely affected by illness. To a woman one of the great evils about it is that she can’t do things. To a man (or anyway a man like me) the great consolation is the reflection ‘Well, anyway, no one can now demand that I should do anything.’ I have often had the fancy that one stage in Purgatory might be a great big kitchen in which things are always going wrong - milk boiling over, crockery getting smashed, toast burning, animals stealing. The women have to learn to sit still and mind their own business: the men have to learn to jump up and do something about it. When both sexes have mastered this exercise, they go on to the next. Collected Letters, to Mary Willis Shelburne, 31 July 1962

I believe in Purgatory.

Mind you, the Reformers had good reasons for throwing doubt on "the Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory" as that Romish doctrine had then become. I don't mean merely the commercial scandal. If you turn from Dante's Purgatorio to the sixteenth century you will be appalled by the degradation. In Thomas More's Supplication of Souls Purgatory is simply temporary Hell. In it the souls are tormented by devils, whose presence is "more horrible and grievous to us than is the pain itself." Worse still, Fisher, in his Sermon on Psalm VI, says the tortures are so intense that the spirit who suffers them cannot, for pain, "remember God as he ought to do." In fact, the very etymology of the word purgatory has dropped out of sight. Its pains do not bring us nearer to God, but make us forget Him. It is a place not of purification but purely of retributive punishment.

The right view returns magnificently in Newman's Dream. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer "With its darkness to affront that light." Religion has reclaimed Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy"? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first." "It may hurt, you know"--"Even so, sir."

I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it. But I don't think suffering is the purpose of the purgation. I can well believe that people neither much worse nor much better than I will suffer less than I or more. "No nonsense about merit." The treatment given will be the one required, whether it hurts little or much.

My favourite image on this matter comes from the dentist's chair. I hope that when the tooth of life is drawn and I am "coming round," a voice will say, "Rinse your mouth out with this." This will be Purgatory. The rinsing may take longer than I can now imagine. The taste of this may be more fiery and astringent than my present sensibility could endure. But More and Fisher shall not persuade me that it will be disgusting and unhallowed.

Letters to Malcolm, chapter 20, paragraphs 7-12

 

[BobRyan]

If purgatory exists, it is a totally separate place from hell. I always thought of purgatory as kind of like Heaven's Ellis Island or like a quarantine place for people who were Christian enough to not go to hell, but who were luke warm or not on the spiritual level they should be. So I think of it like Ellis Island where the people coming to the US in the past had to go through Ellis Island to get vaccinated and quarantined to make sure they were not carrying diseases etc. before being allowed to enter the US. So I think of purgatory as being like that but instead of physical vaccinations, it's spiritual vaccinations/cleansing before being allowed into the fullness of heaven. Only Christians go to purgatory, sinners go to hell, and once in hell, there is no coming out.

ok - but in that case you would never ever want to "slip out" of that "get all your shots" program and sneak in without a few of them -- you would always want to stay there to get "all the vaccine". However purgatory is presented as a place where the fires of hell torture the elect - and a loving relative alive on earth would surely want to earn as many indulgences as possible for their departed loved one. No loving caring friend or relative would want a loved one in that torture for one single second if they could avoid it.

Again, the Church doesn't teach torture. It teaches cleansing. Whether that cleansing includes some form of pain, is speculative.

1. Since the whole doctrine is speculative - it fits right in.

2. If peaceful cleansing was all that is required - then all the business about being in a rush to get out of purgatory before the cleansing is finished - would be dead on arrival. Nobody would wish to get out "all dirty".

3. What is not ambiguous at all is the "need" to get loved ones out of that torture asap. But there is NO need to chase a loved one "out of the shower before they are clean" as it were.

Very "telling".

It definitely won't be physical pain, as there is no physical body to experience pain.

Which is the same thing you say about catholic version of hell itself.

We are back to "same as hell" statements for this catholic teaching.

The pain I would imagine be the pain that we should feel when we have hurt a loved one

Which is not the way the RCC describes hell or purgatory and would not create the case for indulgences at all.

you seem to be arguing for wishful thinking no matter that it does not fit even your own EWTN experts or your own teaching on indulgences.

 

[Circle Christ]

Do you believe that those who are going to heaven - must be subjected to the "fires of hell" in Purgatory?

According to Catholic teaching you cannot go to heaven or purgatory - if you die with mortal sin on your soul - having not been absolved from it in this life.

For example - what some of them call "mild envy" Coveting is a "venial" sin according to Catholic tradition.

Murder and worshiping false gods - a mortal sin.

http://www.followthissite.com/list-of-sins.php

They say that venial sins do not have to be confessed to your priest.

==========================


From http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_print.asp?number=348599&language=en

"I answer that, nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question. It is probable, however, and more in keeping with the statements of holy men and the revelations made to many, that there is a twofold place of Purgatory. One, according to the common law; and thus the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell and cleanses the just in Purgatory; although the damned being lower in merit, are to be consigned to a lower place. Another place of Purgatory is according to dispensation: and thus sometimes, as we read, some are punished in various places, either that the living may learn, or that the dead may be succored, seeing that their punishment being made known to the living may be mitigated through the prayers of the Church."

Father Echert

One Catholic poster - handed me this -


Note some of the statements made there

"There are many Catholics who are the first to admit that Scripture is not explicit in teaching Purgatory."

"the place of Purgatory is situated below and in proximity to hell, so that it is the same fire which torments the damned in hell ..."

And

"Bound for Heaven, souls may experience a “final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.”

I think your first remarks encapsulated the subject well. And exclusively. According to Catholic teaching.
Jesus did not die so that Christians could suffer hell-with-a-time-limit.Nor did he teach anything like that which is described as purgatory.
Therefore, if you are a Christian Purgatory does not exist.

 

[BobRyan]

A lot of people who are not familiar with the concept of Purgatory also have this benign opinion of Purgatory that you've described. They do not know that the Catholic Church describes Purgatory as being just like hell except that it doesn't last as long.

If it was simply a "wonderful place" a resort for the elect to get all cleaned up - showered and ready to enter paradise - what would be the incentive for indulgences?

That's a rhetorical question, I am thinking, since punishment would essentially be taken out of the picture.

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

The Catechism states
1032: "This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead..."


Vatican II documents state:

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in purgatory the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt"
(Vatican II documents, Page 75).

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

"The souls of those who have died in the state of grace suffer for a time a purging that prepares them to enter heaven...It is an intermediate state in which the departed souls can atone for unforgiven sins before receiving their final reward."

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

"the condition or state for those who have not totally alienated themselves from God by their sins, but who are temporarily and partially alienated from God while their love is made perfect and they give satisfaction for their sins."