Purgatory, if it exists how long do you guys have to stay there?

[AveMaria_45]

thats 7
you still got nothing

 

[AveMaria_45]

come on mr "preecher"
wheres all your bible study now?

 

[AveMaria_45]

AGAIN

It's clear that you don't have Biblical doctrine to back up your beliefs

Purgatory



The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031).

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.


Two Judgments


When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. Scripture says that "it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment" (Heb. 9:27). We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, when Jesus returns, there will come the general judgment to which the Bible refers, for example, in Matthew 25:31-32: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." In this general judgment all our sins will be publicly revealed (Luke 12:2–5).

Augustine said, in The City of God, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment" (21:13). It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).


Money, Money, Money


One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.


A Catholic "Invention"?


Fundamentalists may be fond of saying the Catholic Church "invented" the doctrine of purgatory to make money, but they have difficulty saying just when. Most professional anti-Catholics—the ones who make their living attacking "Romanism"—seem to place the blame on Pope Gregory the Great, who reigned from A.D. 590–604.

But that hardly accounts for the request of Monica, mother of Augustine, who asked her son, in the fourth century, to remember her soul in his Masses. This would make no sense if she thought her soul would not benefit from prayers, as would be the case if she were in hell or in the full glory of heaven.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)


Why No Protests?


Whenever a date is set for the "invention" of purgatory, you can point to historical evidence to show the doctrine was in existence before that date. Besides, if at some point the doctrine was pulled out of a clerical hat, why does ecclesiastical history record no protest against it?

A study of the history of doctrines indicates that Christians in the first centuries were up in arms (sometimes quite literally) if anyone suggested the least change in beliefs. They were extremely conservative people who tested a doctrine’s truth by asking, Was this believed by our ancestors? Was it handed on from the apostles? Surely belief in purgatory would be considered a great change, if it had not been believed from the first—so where are the records of protests?

They don’t exist. There is no hint at all, in the oldest writings available to us (or in later ones, for that matter), that "true believers" in the immediate post-apostolic years spoke of purgatory as a novel doctrine. They must have understood that the oral teaching of the apostles, what Catholics call tradition, and the Bible not only failed to contradict the doctrine, but, in fact, confirmed it.

It is no wonder, then, that those who deny the existence of purgatory tend to touch upon only briefly the history of the belief. They prefer to claim that the Bible speaks only of heaven and hell. Wrong. It speaks plainly of a third condition, commonly called the limbo of the Fathers, where the just who had died before the redemption were waiting for heaven to be opened to them. After his death and before his resurrection, Christ visited those experiencing the limbo of the Fathers and preached to them the good news that heaven would now be opened to them (1 Pet. 3:19). These people thus were not in heaven, but neither were they experiencing the torments of hell.

Some have speculated that the limbo of the Fathers is the same as purgatory. This may or may not be the case. However, even if the limbo of the Fathers is not purgatory, its existence shows that a temporary, intermediate state is not contrary to Scripture. Look at it this way. If the limbo of the Fathers was purgatory, then this one verse directly teaches the existence of purgatory. If the limbo of the Fathers was a different temporary state, then the Bible at least says such a state can exist. It proves there can be more than just heaven and hell.


"Purgatory Not in Scripture"


Some Fundamentalists also charge, as though it actually proved something, "The word purgatory is nowhere found in Scripture." This is true, and yet it does not disprove the existence of purgatory or the fact that belief in it has always been part of Church teaching. The words Trinity and Incarnation aren’t in Scripture either, yet those doctrines are clearly taught in it. Likewise, Scripture teaches that purgatory exists, even if it doesn’t use that word and even if 1 Peter 3:19 refers to a place other than purgatory.

Christ refers to the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? "He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering ("fire") there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.

Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin" (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.

Prayers for the dead and the consequent doctrine of purgatory have been part of the true religion since before the time of Christ. Not only can we show it was practiced by the Jews of the time of the Maccabees, but it has even been retained by Orthodox Jews today, who recite a prayer known as the Mourner’s Kaddish for eleven months after the death of a loved one so that the loved one may be purified. It was not the Catholic Church that added the doctrine of purgatory. Rather, any change in the original teaching has taken place in the Protestant churches, which rejected a doctrine that had always been believed by Jews and Christians.


Why Go To Purgatory?


Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed, for "nothing unclean shall enter [heaven]" (Rev. 21:27). Anyone who has not been completely freed of sin and its effects is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to be worthy of heaven, which is to say, he has been forgiven and his soul is spiritually alive. But that’s not sufficient for gaining entrance into heaven. He needs to be cleansed completely.

Fundamentalists claim, as an article in Jimmy Swaggart’s magazine, The Evangelist, put it, that "Scripture clearly reveals that all the demands of divine justice on the sinner have been completely fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It also reveals that Christ has totally redeemed, or purchased back, that which was lost. The advocates of a purgatory (and the necessity of prayer for the dead) say, in effect, that the redemption of Christ was incomplete. . . . It has all been done for us by Jesus Christ, there is nothing to be added or done by man."

It is entirely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us by his death on the cross.


No Contradiction


The Fundamentalist resistance to the biblical doctrine of purgatory presumes there is a contradiction between Christ’s redeeming us on the cross and the process by which we are sanctified. There isn’t. And a Fundamentalist cannot say that suffering in the final stage of sanctification conflicts with the sufficiency of Christ’s atonement without saying that suffering in the early stages of sanctification also presents a similar conflict. The Fundamentalist has it backward: Our suffering in sanctification does not take away from the cross. Rather, the cross produces our sanctification, which results in our suffering, because "[f]or the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness" (Heb. 12:11).


Nothing Unclean


Purgatory makes sense because there is a requirement that a soul not just be declared to be clean, but actually be clean, before a man may enter into eternal life. After all, if a guilty soul is merely "covered," if its sinful state still exists but is officially ignored, then it is still a guilty soul. It is still unclean.

Catholic theology takes seriously the notion that "nothing unclean shall enter heaven." From this it is inferred that a less than cleansed soul, even if "covered," remains a dirty soul and isn’t fit for heaven. It needs to be cleansed or "purged" of its remaining imperfections. The cleansing occurs in purgatory. Indeed, the necessity of the purging is taught in other passages of Scripture, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which declares that God chose us "to be saved through sanctification by the Spirit." Sanctification is thus not an option, something that may or may not happen before one gets into heaven. It is an absolute requirement, as Hebrews 12:14 states that we must strive "for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

 

[Preecher]

thats 7
you still got nothing

You want Bible for punishment in the fire? Ok.

Matthew 18:8-9 (KJV)

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING FIRE. 9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

 

[AveMaria_45]

AGAIN:

It's clear that you don't have Biblical doctrine to back up your beliefs

What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is damned, then no amount of prayers will help him.

Catholics and Protestants can agree on two things regarding the afterlife: Souls in hell will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless. But if a state of purification exists for some after death, and if prayers can help others in their process of sanctification in this life (Job 1:5; 1 Thess. 5:23), it seems reasonable that prayers would be beneficial to those who are being sanctified after this life. This narrows down the essential question: Does purgatory exist?

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them.

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections.


The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses.

Does the Church amass wealth off of the doctrine of purgatory? The average Mass stipend (which is optional) is around five dollars. Say a parish had two daily Masses offered for the dead, it would amount to 70 dollars a week. Considering that the five-dollar stipend typically goes to pay for the church’s electricity, maintenance, furnishings, salaries, Mass wine and bread, etc., it is apparent how silly this objection about "wealth" is.

Can Masses said after a person’s death save his soul? No. Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God’s grace but still have some attachment to sin. While the Church cannot judge souls, we can be certain that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin without asking God’s forgiveness, purgatory does not await him as if it were a second chance.


Weren’t prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church?

Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they pre-date Christianity. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee and his companions pray for the souls of departed soldiers: "It was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:45). While Protestants do not accept this as an inspired book, it is worthwhile to point out that even today Jews have a prayer called the kaddish that is offered for the purification of the deceased.

This practice of praying for the dead is also recorded throughout ancient Christian documents, such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, and in the writings of Abercius, Perpetua, Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, and Augustine. Since all of these men wrote between A.D. 160 and 421, prayers for the souls in purgatory can hardly be considered a medieval invention. On the contrary, refusing to pray for the dead is a novel idea in light of historic Judaism and Christianity.


The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it.

Actually, since roughly 50 percent of all Christians are Catholics and 25 are Orthodox, about three-quarters of all Christians believe it. Certain Protestants, such as C.S. Lewis, have also held to the truth of the doctrine. In his Letters to Malcom, he said, "Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

"I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—"Even so, sir.’"


But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory?

This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work.

To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn’t finish working their way to heaven while on earth. "For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8–9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected.

Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life.

This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: "Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:1–12).

Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something "lacking in Christ’s afflictions," and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).


I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid.

Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain.

In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13–14). In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle, "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25–26). It can also be mentioned that Christian women still experience the temporal punishment of birthpangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s original sin (Rom. 5:12–21).

The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. While "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Heb 12:11), it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6), even if it should be "as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).

 

[AveMaria_45]

thats right mr preehcer
u got nathan

 

[Preecher]

Revelation 20:15 (KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who's nathan?

 

[AveMaria_45]

Revelation 20:15 (KJV)
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who's nathan?

ooh wow
one sentence
youre so smart

 

[AveMaria_45]

OBJECTOR: A friend of mine told me that Catholics don’t believe in purgatory anymore. I found that hard to believe because the Catholic Church is so slow in changing things, but he is a Catholic and I figured he should know. Is this true?

CATHOLIC: Sadly, your Catholic friend is going more on hearsay than on solid knowledge. The Catholic Church has not given up its belief in purgatory because purgatory is a dogma of the faith, or what we may call a de fide doctrine.

OBJECTOR: I thought so. But that presents a big problem for me. The Catholic Church claims to follow the teachings of the Bible, but I can find no mention of it in Scripture.

CATHOLIC: Before I show you some biblical references, tell me what you understand by the Catholic teaching on purgatory, because I often find that it is misunderstood.

OBJECTOR: Purgatory is like a second chance for people who have not been good disciples of Jesus in this world. If they didn’t follow him, they can work off their sins in purgatory and go to heaven. I see purgatory as another instance of the Catholic dependence on good works as a means of salvation. Purgatory is not heaven or hell but an in-between state in which people are punished for their wrongs in this life that were not forgiven.

CATHOLIC: Your understanding is not what the Catholic Church teaches. It may surprise you to know that the Church makes very few binding statements about what purgatory is. The sections in the Catechism of the Catholic Church are very short. The most important statement is: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030). So, you see, purgatory is not a second chance after this life. It is only for those who "die in God’s grace and friendship."

OBJECTOR: What does it mean to "die in God’s grace and friendship"? Romans 10:9 says that if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you will be saved. It doesn’t say anything about undergoing a purification after death. All the holiness we need to enter heaven is in Christ. If we trust him, we will be saved.

CATHOLIC: The language of dying in God’s grace is another way of saying that when we die we must have faith in Christ, as Romans 10:9 says. But Paul did not intend his words in this text to be taken as the complete story. We have to interpret one text in the Bible in the light of the whole Bible.

OBJECTOR: I agree, but there is not one word about purgatory in the Bible.

CATHOLIC: Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." You see, the Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Paul in these verses refers to a purgation process whereby a man is saved even though his works are burned away. This is precisely what the Catholic Church teaches. A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

OBJECTOR: You said we need to interpret verses of the Bible in context, but you left out verse 13: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done." You see it speaks about "the Day." That means the Day of Judgment, not some intermediate state of purgatory.

CATHOLIC: Of course we don’t really know what day Paul is talking about, so it would be arbitrary to limit it to the final Day of Judgment. I take it that we both believe in a personal judgment after death and a general judgment at the end of history.

OBJECTOR: Yes, but it makes much more sense to me to read this as referring to the general judgment. It speaks about a day that brings one’s work to light, not about a process of purification. Even if this text could refer to the personal judgment, it doesn’t show that the Catholic notion of purgatory is true.

CATHOLIC: Assuming that the text could refer to the personal judgment, what do you see in the idea of purgatory that’s not found in this passage?

OBJECTOR: Well, the most obvious difference is that it doesn’t mention anything like praying for the dead, which is a major part of the Church’s teaching on purgatory.

CATHOLIC: I agree that these verses don’t mention prayers for the dead, but other passages in the Bible do. The most obvious is 2 Maccabees 12:40–45. When Judas prays and has sacrifices offered for soldiers who died in battle, he is commended for acting "very well and honorably."

OBJECTOR: The book of 2 Maccabees isn’t inspired, so you can’t say that this shows scriptural support for purgatory.

CATHOLIC: We’ll have to discuss the inspiration of Maccabees some other time, but at least this passage shows that even before Christ the Jewish people recognized the need for purification from sins after death and believed that the prayers and sacrifices of those still living could aid in this purification. The Catholic Church didn’t make up this idea.

OBJECTOR: Well, even if the Catholic Church didn’t make it up, that doesn’t mean it’s true. We are under the New Covenant, so many of the precepts of the Old Law, such as dietary laws, no longer apply. This need for purification after death could be one of those things.

CATHOLIC: I agree that we cannot say that everything present in Judaism before Christ is something that applies to our state after Christ. Even so, the indication in Maccabees of purification after death is not a precept but a belief, and so it is not in the same category as dietary laws. Furthermore, the New Testament shows a continuity with this idea. For example, Matthew 12:32 says that some people who sin "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that there are some sins that will be forgiven in the age to come. If there is no purification after death, then this passage doesn’t make much sense.

OBJECTOR: Jesus wasn’t speaking about the distinction between this life and the next; rather, he was making a distinction between the age under the Old Covenant and the age under the New Covenant.

CATHOLIC: That interpretation doesn’t make sense, though, because it doesn’t fit with the context of the verse. Right before this, Jesus had been casting out demons, and he announced that the kingdom of God had come. He’s saying that the kingdom of God is already present; it would make little sense for him to then refer to the dominion of the kingdom as an "age to come."

OBJECTOR: Even so, this could just mean that at the moment of our death, we are purified and forgiven. The testing in 1 Corinthians 3:14–15 could be instantaneous. I don’t see any evidence in the Bible that souls actually exist after death in a state of existence that is neither heaven nor hell.

CATHOLIC: The Church doesn’t exclude the possibility that purgatory could be an instantaneous purification, but there are indications in the Bible that souls do exist in some state that is neither heaven nor hell. Look at 1 Peter 3:19–20. These verses show Jesus preaching to "to the spirits in prison." The "prison" cannot be heaven, because the people there do not need to have the Gospel preached to them. It cannot be hell, because the souls in hell cannot repent. It must be something else. As you can see, there is nothing unbiblical about the claim that those who have died might not immediately go to heaven or to hell.

OBJECTOR: Even if the passages you cite do refer to some state other than heaven or hell, this doesn’t automatically imply purgatory, because the "spirits in prison" died before Christ’s sacrifice opened the way to heaven. The condition in 1 Peter is not necessarily the same as purgatory.

CATHOLIC: It is certainly possible that the state mentioned here, often called "the limbo of the fathers," is a state other than that of purgatory, but at least we’ve established that there is nothing contrary to Scripture in asserting that those who have died can be in a temporary state other than heaven or hell.

OBJECTOR: Well, I can understand why people who died before Christ might have been in a state other than heaven or hell, but the idea of purgatory seems inconsistent with the love of God. If God really loves us, why would he want us to go to purgatory and suffer for our sins?

CATHOLIC: On the contrary, the idea of purgatory, when properly understood, is entirely consistent with the love of God. God wants us to be perfect (cf. Matt. 5:48). If we are not perfected by the time we die, we will be perfected in purgatory. He loves us too much to allow us to be less than what he created us to be. Purgatory is not about an angry God inflicting punishment upon his creatures. It is about a loving Father who "disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness" (Heb. 12:10).

 

[Preecher]

ooh wow
one sentence
youre so smart

Copying and pasting tons of Catholic doctrine makes you smart?

 

[Preecher]

So then, are Catholics the only ones who are saved?

 

[AveMaria_45]

Copying and pasting tons of Catholic doctrine makes you smart?

no.
it means i have answers and you dont
it means i tell the truth and you dont

it doesn't make make smart, but it makes me smarter than you because you dont even know how to find the answers and i do.

 

[Preecher]

no.
it means i have answers and you dont
it means i tell the truth and you dont

it doesn't make make smart, but it makes me smarter than you because you dont even know how to find the answersd and i do.

Since you proclaim yourself to be smart then try answering this question. Are Catholics the only ones saved?

 

[Preecher]

Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[Preecher]

Does it seem to anyone else that Catholics believe they are the only ones saved?

 

[Dark_Lite]

Does it seem to anyone else that Catholics believe they are the only ones saved?

Stop promoting misinformation and dodging arguments. You haven't provided a single iota of support for any of your assertions in this thread, and you just keep posting the same junk over and over. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, people will believe you.

What are you even rambling about now? It has nothing to do with purgatory. It's just another one of your attempts to avoid answering the counterpoints provided so many pages ago. For the record, no, Catholics do not believe only they are saved. But I know that's not going to stop you. You will just keep on driving the ignorance truck, barreling down the highway of reality without watching where you're going.

 

[AveMaria_45]

Stop promoting misinformation and dodging arguments. You haven't provided a single iota of support for any of your assertions in this thread, and you just keep posting the same junk over and over. I suppose if you repeat it enough times, people will believe you.

What are you even rambling about now? It has nothing to do with purgatory. It's just another one of your attempts to avoid answering the counterpoints provided so many pages ago. For the record, no, Catholics do not believe only they are saved. But I know that's not going to stop you. You will just keep on driving the ignorance truck, barreling down the highway of reality without watching where you're going.

what she said

 

[Preecher]

For the record, no, Catholics do not believe only they are saved. But I know that's not going to stop you. You will just keep on driving the ignorance truck, barreling down the highway of reality without watching where you're going.

Thanks for you answer. That's all you had to do. My question is sincere. You are clearly irked because I do not believe in purgatory. My comments are to provoke thought and answers. Basically all I received from the Catholics here was rudeness. I asked the question because I had read that was true.

 

[Dark_Lite]

Thanks for you answer. That's all you had to do. My question is sincere. You are clearly irked because I do not believe in purgatory. My comments are to provoke thought and answers. Basically all I received from the Catholics here was rudeness. I asked the question because I had read that was true.

No, I am "irked" because you still have not answered the counterpoints. You have continually asserted throughout this entire thread that "purgatory is bad/wrong/evil" without providing any evidence and you have completely ignored everything posted in opposition to your assertions.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525779/#post56702885 is where it all started. That post hasn't gone anywhere; it's still waiting for you to address it.

 

[Preecher]

No, I am "irked" because you still have not answered the counterpoints. You have continually asserted throughout this entire thread that "purgatory is bad/wrong/evil" without providing any evidence and you have completely ignored everything posted in opposition to your assertions.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7525779/#post56702885 is where it all started. That post hasn't gone anywhere; it's still waiting for you to address it.

How many times do you want me to answer? Ok, if you like reading it. Purgatory is a deception. Many will find themselves in Hell who expected purgatory.