Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception

[Albion]

I would argue in favour of some kind of intermediate state due to the fact that for most people, the process of sanctification has not reached its end by the time of death.

Why would anyone think that?

Sure, we are justified and guaranteed a seat in heaven (eventually) but we are not yet made perfect.

How do you know?

I cannot imagine heaven as a place where the christians I have met all live together. It would be far from perfect. I believe an intermediate state is there to purify us

"Purify us?" From what? I don't know what you are thinking of that constitutes perfection, but is your idea of this intermediate state a kind of junior heaven? A brief orientation session? Something painful?

and complete the work of sanctification, allowing only what is perfect into heaven.

Again, why wouldn't entrance into heaven automatically create perfection?

 

[seeking_perfection]

"Purify us?" From what? I don't know what you are thinking of that constitutes perfection, but is your idea of this intermediate state a kind of junior heaven? A brief orientation session? Something painful?

I honestly don't know but I would expect it to be rather uncomfortable as it will remove all the remaining deep-seated areas of imperfection from us. Facing up to that is not going to be particularly fun.

Again, why wouldn't entrance into heaven automatically create perfection?

I can't accept that. If that were the case, there would be no need to strive in this world to attain sanctification. Just wait until you die and hey!, I'm perfect!

I suppose I would say that while Christ has given us the pathway to heaven through justification (something that would be entirely impossible of our own will), we are still required to attain perfection before entering heaven, which is a place of perfection. This doesn't just magically happen but takes time, as God slowly turns us from our fallen ways and towards his example. Purgatory/intermediate state is a place where those assured of salvation (e.g. justified) must remain until the remaining imperfections are worked away. I see it no differently to what I am attempting to do now in this life, become more like Christ.

To put it bluntly, if I died today, I am not in the slightest bit fit for a realm of perfection. However, I would like to think that I would count as one of God's children and that he will continue to help me towards perfection so that I can one day I can take my place there. I have a long way to go before I can be classed as anything near perfect!

 

[Albion]

I honestly don't know but I would expect it to be rather uncomfortable as it will remove all the remaining deep-seated areas of imperfection from us. Facing up to that is not going to be particularly fun.

OK then, that would be close to the RCC idea of Purgatory, but I can't find anything in scripture that suggests it and plenty that says that we have nothing to fear, that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us, that he took our sins on himself...and nothing about us being not good enough for heaven even after being forgiven of all our sins.

I can't accept that. If that were the case, there would be no need to strive in this world to attain sanctification. Just wait until you die and hey!, I'm perfect!

I didn't say that. I said that heaven might well be the means by which we are pefected. That seems a lot more likely than that the saved are treated to hell for awhile although we have no sin.

 

[seeking_perfection]

I didn't say that. I said that heaven might well be the means by which we are pefected. That seems a lot more likely than that the saved are treated to hell for awhile although we have no sin.

Would you care to elaborate on how heaven might perfect us? And also why this does not mean we can sit back and relax right now?

 

[Albion]

Would you care to elaborate on how heaven might perfect us?

No. No one knows any of this--imaginary Purgatory look alikes, heaven, "purification," "perfection" -- it's all speculation.

And also why this does not mean we can sit back and relax right now?

I think it does. When Jesus told his followers not to worry, I figure he meant it. But if there's a trap door in the afterlife that will get us along with the news that although we've been forgiven and told that Jesus has prepared a place for us...it's going to wait until we get a surprise taste of what we were led to believe Jesus took from us...we'd have reason not to feel all that comfortable after all!

 

[seeking_perfection]

...But if there's a trap door in the afterlife that will get us along with the news that although we've been forgiven and told that Jesus has prepared a place for us...it's going to wait until we get a surprise taste of what we were led to believe Jesus took from us...we'd have reason not to feel all that comfortable after all!

I don't seem an intermediate state as being like a trapdoor. Its part of the sanctification process and whatever happens there is good for us. It's not a pointless taster of hell to scare us into being better. It's some means of bringing us to greater perfection.

God doesn't just justify us and leave us wallowing in pitiful uselessness. He slowly changes us and brings into a state of perfection, culminating in heaven. While this is comforting, I don't view it as being comfortable. Changing our ways can be very uncomfortable. As this change involves our co-operation, I can't see that dying and reaching heaven would magically change us. That would be quite a change of tack in the method of our gradual sanctification. Rather I see a continued use of God's will and our co-operation in some immediate state leading to a gradual perfection and entrance into heaven.

Just to recap - I don't see it as a negative thing but a positive one (however awkward it may feel at the time).

I must admit I'm not particularly aware of the more vague 'mudroom' idea you mention. Does it sound like what I am saying or is it different?

As you probably know more about this, how does the a) stereotype medieval and b) modern RC view of purgatory align with what I have said?

 

[Albion]

I don't seem an intermediate state as being like a trapdoor. Its part of the sanctification process and whatever happens there is good for us.

You are entitled to think anything you want about it, but few people are expecting a temporary hell to be awaiting them because of some fine print in the salvation process. Trapdoor seemed a fair picture of that unexpected turn of events, if they're accurate.

It's some means of bringing us to greater perfection.

No one even knows what that means.

Just to recap - I don't see it as a negative thing but a positive one (however awkward it may feel at the time).

As you probably know more about this, how does the a) stereotype medieval and b) modern RC view of purgatory align with what I have said?

I can't speak to stereotypes about Purgatory, but the actual description given by the RCC is of a state that's 'just like hell but doesn't last forever.' Many of the great RC saints said that even apparently good people would be there until the end of the world, and all of us go there. There is no modern revision of Purgatory but the RCC now doesn't mention it much because most Catholics think they'll go straight to heaven after death because "I've been good."

 

[PaladinValer]

The Apostle's Creed makes it clear Jesus went to hades/sheol when He died, so there definitely is an immediate afterlife. Jesus Himself illustrated the 1st century Jewish and Christian believe thereof in His parable of Dives and Lazarus.

It is a place of purgation and theosis, but it isn't exactly as how Rome historically and traditionally interpreted it to be.

 

[MichaelNZ]

I kind of like the Eastern Orthodox view: We know that our prayers benefit the dead, but we don't know how they benefit the dead.

 

[MKJ]

OK then, that would be close to the RCC idea of Purgatory, but I can't find anything in scripture that suggests it and plenty that says that we have nothing to fear, that Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us, that he took our sins on himself...and nothing about us being not good enough for heaven even after being forgiven of all our sins.


I didn't say that. I said that heaven might well be the means by which we are pefected. That seems a lot more likely than that the saved are treated to hell for awhile although we have no sin.

I think you are in part running into issues because you are conceptualizing this purification as either having a place attached to it or a time period attached to it. Since we don't really even say those things about Heaven or Hell, I don't think that is necessary and probably causes problems.

If you say we are perfected by going into Heaven, and you don't think we all die perfected, you are pretty much saying the same thing - that there is some process or state or thing which happens which purifies us as a corollary of being in God's presence in a happy way.

I am not sure why fear enters into it at all - if an individual wants that purification, that burning away of the worldly attachments we have retained, why would that loss be something to fear.

That isn't to say it would not be painful in some sense. Even if we are assured of Heaven, surely having these things stripped away and seeing them for what they are would have an aspect that is not all happy-clappy. As Lewis said, most of the things that are really good for us, like exercise or serious academic study or relationships - have an element of pain to them. That does not mean that it is a pain that is not embraced.

 

[Albion]

I think you are in part running into issues because you are conceptualizing this purification as either having a place attached to it or a time period attached to it. Since we don't really even say those things about Heaven or Hell, I don't think that is necessary and probably causes problems.

If you say we are perfected by going into Heaven, and you don't think we all die perfected, you are pretty much saying the same thing - that there is some process or state or thing which happens which purifies us as a corollary of being in God's presence in a happy way.

I am not sure why fear enters into it at all - if an individual wants that purification, that burning away of the worldly attachments we have retained, why would that loss be something to fear.

Purgatory's historic definition included real suffering, and when people point to 'purifying fire' they normally think of something that would be painful. What's more, when I raise the issue, they tell me that being in hell for awhile (in effect) would be OK with them since they are assured of going to heaven eventually. So because they put it that way, my response has it in mind.

That isn't to say it would not be painful in some sense.

See what I mean? If you feel that way, I don't, and I don't see any reason to assume the worst after our Savior promised nothing of the sort.

not all happy-clappy

Why is it that people minimize the nature of Purgatory so?

 

[PaladinValer]

The fact that the Vatican Catholic view of Purgatory has shifted should be something to celebrate. Benedict XVI's recent writing on the subject is much different than the medieval idea.

If they were to remove the idea of Treasury of Merits, I might be able to argue that their view were to have so significantly change that our own Article against it would no longer apply.

 

[ebia]

The fact that the Vatican Catholic view of Purgatory has shifted should be something to celebrate. Benedict XVI's recent writing on the subject is much different than the medieval idea.

If they were to remove the idea of Treasury of Merits, I might be able to argue that their view were to have so significantly change that our own Article against it would no longer apply.

Yep

 

[MKJ]

Purgatory's historic definition included real suffering, and when people point to 'purifying fire' they normally think of something that would be painful. What's more, when I raise the issue, they tell me that being in hell for awhile (in effect) would be OK with them since they are assured of going to heaven eventually. So because they put it that way, my response has it in mind.

I don't think what people say about Hell has anything to do with it. Who cares? Lots of Catholics don't know diddly-squat about their religion.

See what I mean? If you feel that way, I don't, and I don't see any reason to assume the worst after our Savior promised nothing of the sort.

I just don't see in the references you provided anything that says that the process of union with God would not include a kind of pain or suffering. At all really. That we don't need to worry, that God wants us there, all kinds of other conforting things. But not that it will all be a painless process.

I also don't see how this is thinking "the worst". It isn't like it is something I worry about. The process of Divinization is painful now, in this life, and the pain is self-inflicted. Giving up the things we cling to, that we have made part of ourselves, is painful. I suppose if we can let those things go with no regret or attachment after death it might be painless, but I don't have any reason to think that will happen for everyone.

Why is it that people minimize the nature of Purgatory so?

Well, I might ask why people minimize what it means to be united with God, or the writings of the Church Fathers, or why they don't ask, if sanctification/divination is not painful to me as a human being, why do we perceive it as painful in this life? Aren't we saved now?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

diddly-squat is an idiom whose time has truly come for a resurrection of usage!

I don't think what people say about Hell has anything to do with it. Who cares? Lots of Catholics don't know diddly-squat about their religion.


I just don't see in the references you provided anything that says that the process of union with God would not include a kind of pain or suffering. At all really. That we don't need to worry, that God wants us there, all kinds of other conforting things. But not that it will all be a painless process.

I also don't see how this is thinking "the worst". It isn't like it is something I worry about. The process of Divinization is painful now, in this life, and the pain is self-inflicted. Giving up the things we cling to, that we have made part of ourselves, is painful. I suppose if we can let those things go with no regret or attachment after death it might be painless, but I don't have any reason to think that will happen for everyone.


Well, I might ask why people minimize what it means to be united with God, or the writings of the Church Fathers, or why they don't ask, if sanctification/divination is not painful to me as a human being, why do we perceive it as painful in this life? Aren't we saved now?

 

[Polycarp1]

I'm quite comfortable with the (Anglican) Articles of Religion which describe Purgatory as "grounded upon no warrant of Scripture...." The Immaculate Conception is often described among Anglicans as a "pious opinion," meaning that it has no warrant in Scripture either, but may be held by members of the church because it is merely a guess concerning the condition of the Virgin Mary and does not deal with the process by which salvation comes to anyone. I don't see any reason to believe in it.

Neither.

The Immaculate Conception of the Theotokos is rife with theological problems, one of them is that it depends on a proclamation of a Pope instead of counciliarism.

Purgatory goes along with the idea of the Treasury of Merits, which is also terrible theology. Aspects of it are fine and are Biblical, and the way Benedict XVI proclaimed it is fine, but the historic understanding of that idea is also rife with theological problems asides the one mentioned earlier.

Neither. I believe there may be something like purgatory, but not the purgatory defined by the RC Church.

I take my stand with these three members. I once saw Purgatory described as "Heaven's mudroom," which if ytou're not familiar with the term is the concrete-floored rear entry to many rural homes where, having gotten dirty working outside, one can remove the filth before entering the home proper. This sort of concept I could easily accept; the RCC doctrine, not so much.

And I have a great deal of respect for the Theotokos, but don't think anyone need be obliged to believe anything in particular about her for their salvation.

 

[Albion]

I don't think what people say about Hell has anything to do with it. Who cares?

It's relevant because Hellfire and the fire that is Purgatorial is the same. At least it is, acccording to the people who brought you Purgatory in the first place.

 

[PaladinValer]

It's relevant because Hellfire and the fire that is Purgatorial is the same. At least it is, acccording to the people who brought you Purgatory in the first place.

Again though, the official view of puragory in the Vatican Catholic Church appears to be changing. Of course they are going to say "nothing changed; just how we explain it," but I think all can agree that this time, the historical record shows that such a proclamation doesn't hold a candle.

Yet their view is changing, and it should be a cause of celebration, not continued semi-hostility. We need to approach the Articles in the context of which they are written. If the Vatican Catholic Church were to continue to use such different language officially by its hierarchs, especially the Pope himself, then it would appear that the Article wouldn't apply anymore. If the Pope or one of their councils were to suddenly define it officially in proclamation that it would drop the idea of the Treasury of Merits, then our official objection would be made utterly and completely invalid because the context has then shifted in an immediately direct manner.

I have hope that dialogue between our churches may help both churches to come to a greater agreement on this issue. Unlike other issues that we don't see perfectly eye to eye on, this one among a few others has the greatest change of being truly reconciled.

 

[Albion]

Again though, the official view of puragory in the Vatican Catholic Church appears to be changing. Of course they are going to say "nothing changed; just how we explain it," but I think all can agree that this time, the historical record shows that such a proclamation doesn't hold a candle.

I agree with all that. My point there was just that it's disingenuous for any of us armchair quarterbacks making up our own versions of Purgatory to try to keep the old Purgatory but also render it toothless at the same time.

IF someone wants to say that he doesn't believe in Purgatory but he does think that there's some transition that occurs after death, etc., I have no problem with that in the least. It's all speculation anyway. Alas, what we usually get is an attempt to say that Purgatory wasn't mythical in the first place, and we do this by verbally tidying up the ridiculous aspects of the historic definition. Fire isn't really fire, punishment is just a celestial counseling session, etc. That is what the RCC itself does when it changes its doctrines but wants to retain the claim that it's the church that never changes.

 

[elahmine]

Beginning to think life on earth is purgatory enough...