Purgatory and the Immaculate Conception

[No Swansong]

It's some means of bringing us to greater perfection.

By definition there is no such thing as "greater perfection". Perfection is perfection it can't be improved upon.

 

[seeking_perfection]

By definition there is no such thing as "greater perfection". Perfection is perfection it can't be improved upon.

You are right of course, poor choice of words.

I should have said it finalises the process of bringing us to perfection.

 

[Albion]

You are right of course, poor choice of words.

I should have said it finalises the process of bringing us to perfection.

In view of all these posts extolling the achievement of perfection, the questions have to be asked:

What IS that perfection? What it it like? How will, for example, Mother Teresa be different from before death?

 

[MKJ]

In view of all these posts extolling the achievement of perfection, the questions have to be asked:

What IS that perfection? What it it like? How will, for example, Mother Teresa be different from before death?

I think it is really only possible to speak about this fairly generally. She will have union with God, which will mean having her will, and also her intellect, completely aligned with God's truth. Those natural things which inhibited her union with God will be healed in some way, and those things which she allowed to inhibit that union will be let go.

It's possible that in Mother Teresa's case, there may not be a whole lot of difference - theoretically it is possible to achieve divinization in this life.

 

[Albion]

I think it is really only possible to speak about this fairly generally. She will have union with God, which will mean having her will, and also her intellect, completely aligned with God's truth. Those natural things which inhibited her union with God will be healed in some way, and those things which she allowed to inhibit that union will be let go.

It's possible that in Mother Teresa's case, there may not be a whole lot of difference - theoretically it is possible to achieve divinization in this life.

All right, but what I was getting at was this: there's all this talk about the necessity of some purification that isn't possible without some kind of a Purgatory, but we don't really know why. For me, inventing another place in the afterlife that the Bible doesn't tell us about...to accomplish what we don't really know...is better left undone.

 

[JustAnglican]

Do we go to heaven when we die? If so, what happens at resurrection? Do we leave heaven and get back to our transformed earthly bodies? I get confused about this, hence a waiting place becomes logical to me. If there is to be a judgement, how come do we get rewarded prior the judgement (sounds biased to me)? I am just confused. Do we stop growing spiritually once we die?

As I said before - this confusion leads me to just settle for one option i.e a place of waiting (what we call it - that I do not know).

 

[MKJ]

Do we go to heaven when we die? If so, what happens at resurrection? Do we leave heaven and get back to our transformed earthly bodies? I get confused about this, hence a waiting place becomes logical to me. If there is to be a judgement, how come do we get rewarded prior the judgement (sounds biased to me)? I am just confused. Do we stop growing spiritually once we die?

As I said before - this confusion leads me to just settle for one option i.e a place of waiting (what we call it - that I do not know).

My understanding is that after death we spiritually are in God's presence which we experience according to our inclination towards it, and that constitutes a foretaste of Heaven or Hell. I suppose it could be called purgatory as well, depending on how things fall out for an individual in the end. At the last judgement we are finally judged and reunited with our bodies in the New Earth, or not, as the case may be.

But yes, I think your point is appropriatly directed - the idea of purgatory arises not just from questions of sin but from our eschatology.

 

[Albion]

Do we go to heaven when we die? If so, what happens at resurrection? Do we leave heaven and get back to our transformed earthly bodies? I get confused about this, hence a waiting place becomes logical to me.

Maybe--however, Purgatory is anything but a "waiting place."

No matter how you slice it, Purgatory is a place of punishment...and if you take that component out of it, you're not talking about Purgatory.

 

[No Swansong]

You are right of course, poor choice of words.

I should have said it finalises the process of bringing us to perfection.

So are you claiming that after death we need to be punished in some way to atone for our sins? How exactly does that square with the Gospel? Perhaps I have an incomplete understanding of the Gospel but it is my understanding that we can't in any way atone for our sins. How would suffering after death add to the atoning sacrifice of Christ?

 

[MKJ]

So are you claiming that after death we need to be punished in some way to atone for our sins? How exactly does that square with the Gospel? Perhaps I have an incomplete understanding of the Gospel but it is my understanding that we can't in any way atone for our sins. How would suffering after death add to the atoning sacrifice of Christ?

No, he is not talking about atonement, but about theosis.

When we die, at least most of us, we are not yet perfectly conformed to God's will. It is not that we have got a debt for our past sins. But we are very often still holding on to the things that separate us from him. Bad habits, small pleasures we ought to give up but don't, our own fads and vanities that are not spiritually healthy, bad feelings towards other people, prejudices, that sort of thing.

Sometimes too I think that sometimes we ourselves do hang on to our old sins that God has forgiven and those are a sort of baggage that interferes with our union with him.

But union with God means losing these things, and if we don't do it while we are alive it must happen after death. This is not a punishment but in fact a great grace. That does not, however, mean that it is something that can always be accomplished without discomfort, just as allowing God to work in us to let go of these things in life is often very painful.

 

[Albion]

No, he is not talking about atonement, but about theosis.

When we die, at least most of us, we are not yet perfectly conformed to God's will. It is not that we have got a debt for our past sins. But we are very often still holding on to the things that separate us from him. Bad habits, small pleasures we ought to give up but don't, our own fads and vanities that are not spiritually healthy, bad feelings towards other people, prejudices, that sort of thing.

From where does this free and loose guesswork originate? I prefer the Scriptural information myself, but I can understand speculating on the afterlife. To speak of this theory as if it were knowable, settled, and true, however....

 

[No Swansong]

No, he is not talking about atonement, but about theosis.

When we die, at least most of us, we are not yet perfectly conformed to God's will. It is not that we have got a debt for our past sins. But we are very often still holding on to the things that separate us from him. Bad habits, small pleasures we ought to give up but don't, our own fads and vanities that are not spiritually healthy, bad feelings towards other people, prejudices, that sort of thing.

Sometimes too I think that sometimes we ourselves do hang on to our old sins that God has forgiven and those are a sort of baggage that interferes with our union with him.

But union with God means losing these things, and if we don't do it while we are alive it must happen after death. This is not a punishment but in fact a great grace. That does not, however, mean that it is something that can always be accomplished without discomfort, just as allowing God to work in us to let go of these things in life is often very painful.

Theosis, Holiness, Perfection etc. all imply that we aren't yet worthy to be present with God. Yet, what separates us from God is sin, what reunites us with God is Atonement. Where specifically do we learn that His atonement was not sufficient to make us worthy of the presence of God?

 

[MKJ]

Theosis, Holiness, Perfection etc. all imply that we aren't yet worthy to be present with God. Yet, what separates us from God is sin, what reunites us with God is Atonement. Where specifically do we learn that His atonement was not sufficient to make us worthy of the presence of God?

It has absolutely nothing to do with worth. But this kind of thinking is I think a clear explication of the limits of thinking about Christ's work in terms of atonement.

Let me ask you something and maybe it will clarify: would you also say that there is no need for sanctification? That we do not need to undertake spiritual disciplines like alms-giving or fasting? God is happy to have us as we are, and there is no need to work to refrain from bad habits or take on good ones?

Because it seems pretty self-evident that we don't automatically cease from sin when we are baptized or otherwise commit ourselves to Christ.

If we do need sanctification, why is that?

And do you feel that when we are "in Heaven" or become united with God, we retain our bad thoughts, bad will, bad habits, and so on? In not, why don't we retain them? Aren't they worthy of Heaven? Has Christ not redeemed them as well?

 

[seeking_perfection]

What MKJ said.

Atonement enables the process of Theosis to begin. Justification and Sanctification are both required.

None of this is possible without Christ's Atonement but the fruits of the Atonement have to be applied to each of us.

 

[Albion]

Atonement enables the process of Theosis to begin. Justification and Sanctification are both required.

None of this is possible without Christ's Atonement but the fruits of the Atonement have to be applied to each of us.

But even if this (theosis) were true, what's the logic or scriptural basis for thinking that this process requires punishment although we have been absolved of our sins?

 

[MKJ]

But even if this (theosis) were true, what's the logic or scriptural basis for thinking that this process requires punishment although we have been absolved of our sins?

You're the only one who is talking about punishment.

How do you think that people experience sanctification?

 

[Anna Scott]

At this point, I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception of The Blessed Virgin Mary. Though I can see why one would question whether or not Christ could dwell in the womb of a body that is subject to sin, original or otherwise.

I think it is possible that some sort of purification process occurs after death. Even the Jews hold this belief. So, I wouldn't say Catholics invented the idea--maybe their own particulars regarding Purgatory, but Catholics didn't invent the idea of a purification process after death.

I'm open to correction on both accounts. My views on these two issues are not set in stone. I could be wrong and often am.

I'm sorry, I didn't vote in the poll. I would vote "uncertain."

Anna

 

[Albion]

You're the only one who is talking about punishment.

Me and 600 years of Church history, you mean.

That IS Purgatory, MK!

I am somewhere between amused and amazed that a lot of people have convinced themselves that it's possible to totally re-define Purgatory and yet call their own invention by the same name, thereby allowing themselves to say they believe in Purgatory when they actually don't.

To borrow an old line from Johnny Carson, you might as well say that you believe in Purgatory because you think that after death we will all go to a mobile home park in Tarzana, California. Well, that would be a mobile home park in Tarzana, California, not Purgatory, even if you call it "Purgatory."

And BTW, why do you think they call it PURGE-atory? Because it's place where we get orientation before entering Heaven? Because we undergo an interview with God there? Because we need to be forgiven for the sins that were already forgiven thanks to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross? No.

 

[MKJ]

Me and 600 years of Church history, you mean.

That IS Purgatory, MK!

I am somewhere between amused and amazed that a lot of people have convinced themselves that it's possible to totally re-define Purgatory and yet call their own invention by the same name, thereby allowing themselves to say they believe in Purgatory when they actually don't.

To borrow an old line from Johnny Carson, you might as well say that you believe in Purgatory because you think that after death we will all go to a mobile home park in Tarzana, California. Well, that would be a mobile home park in Tarzana, California, not Purgatory, even if you call it "Purgatory."

And BTW, why do you think they call it PURGE-atory? Because it's place where we get orientation before entering Heaven? Because we undergo an interview with God there? Because we need to be forgiven for the sins that were already forgiven thanks to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross? No.

I don't think it is redefining purgatory, it is the same essential idea. The language is different than the medievals used and yes, certain aspects of the treatment have been dropped or re-framed. I think you will find if you read good, modern Catholic theologians they will also say it is not a matter of punishment, it is more like natural consequences - if you have held onto things, you will have to let them go. If you have not been totally healed, you will be totally healed. Not to make you worthy, but because that is what union with the divine means.

That is why separating justification and sanctification needs to be so carefully done if it must be done at all. To be justified by Christ's work once and for all means to be totally sanctified if we are to realize it, either before death or after.

PURGation is not identical to punishment. Punishment is something done to teach us a lesson or to make justice somehow. To be purged of something is to let go of something unhealthy or what is making us ill. It is purification, being made perfect in fact, which is also what sanctification is.

I sometimes get the impression people think that even in Heaven we will not be perfect in fact, but only by God choosing to overlook our failings.

 

[Albion]

I don't think it is redefining purgatory, it is the same essential idea.

Not unless it includes the following--

--Purgation, punishment for unforgiven sins (as well as forgiven ones).

--A long stay (in most cases).

...and that's to mention only the most indisputable characteristics of Purgatory. Almost no one on these forums who wants to float his own idea of what a "Purgatory" should be like includes these, yet there is no hesitation to say that it's "Purgatory." Well, that's not the case. If, however, someone wants to play "what I think the afterlife might be like" that's different.