Purgatory and Sin Offerings?

[bbbbbbb]

Hello Cris V.

I would suggest.... instead of going Wikipedia or this Forum to learn of the Catholic Church's true teaching on Purgatory, is to go the Catholic Church herself for your research to avoid the conflicting opinions/ fallicies/ mis-information you are getting here from biased non-Catholics with an agenda.

Some good reliable Catholic sites are Catholic.com/ Catholicanswers.com/ EWTN.com/ askacatholic.com, and type in Purgatory.

Have a Blessed Holy Week

Actually, I recommend that he avoid all interpretations of the doctrine and go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself.

He will find surprisingly few statements concerning Purgatory and those statements which are there can be understood in a great number of ways. Thus, I know Catholics who consider themselves to be pillars of the Church who insist on understandings of Purgatory ranging from the traditional (a dire place of torment and suffering for dead Catholics, but which is only for a sentencing period according to the number of temporal sins needed to be purged and which period can be shortened in time by the application of indulgences) to the contemporary (a state of being outside of the space-time continuum in which God washes the soul from its temporal sins in a manner not unlike a refreshing shower).

 

[Mark_Sam]

Actually, I recommend that he avoid all interpretations of the doctrine and go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself.

He will find surprisingly few statements concerning Purgatory and those statements which are there can be understood in a great number of ways. Thus, I know Catholics who consider themselves to be pillars of the Church who insist on understandings of Purgatory ranging from the traditional (a dire place of torment and suffering for dead Catholics, but which is only for a sentencing period according to the number of temporal sins needed to be purged and which period can be shortened in time by the application of indulgences) to the contemporary (a state of being outside of the space-time continuum in which God washes the soul from its temporal sins in a manner not unlike a refreshing shower).

Yes, you are right. In a strict sense, there are only two things about Purgatory that are dogmatically defined:
1. There is a cleansing after death for those souls who, whilst dying in the friendship of God, still have stains of sin left in them. This state or place is commonly called Purgatory.
2. Our prayers here on earth, and especially the Mass, can help those souls experiencing this cleansing.

A corollary is that all souls in the state or place of Purgatory will go to heaven after having been purified, since they still died in the friendship of God.

Nothing more, nothing less. That's it. Purgatory is often depicted as a fiery place, but not always. In the Middle Ages, it was common to think that the fires of Purgatory were more painful than any earthly pain, and that the fires of both hell and Purgatory 'came from the same furnance'! Purgatory is generally considered to involve some form of pain and suffering.

However, in modern times, some theologians have speculated that the fires of Purgatory might actually be Christ himself cleansing the souls. And many today stress the joy of the souls in Purgatory: they know that they will go to heaven, no matter what!

Great saints have often been given visions of the fiery torment of Purgatory. However, such visions are private revelations and are not binding upon believers. These visions (if they came from God) were meant to convey something to a particular person, in a way they could understand. So these visions cannot be used in determining dogma.

So even though there are some established traditions about what Purgatory is, there is an open discussion where differences in opions are allowed, as long as they do not contradict the two statements given in the first paragraph.

 

[Mark_Sam]

Perfect can also mean 'spotless' The NT seems to be saying our sin 'spots' or 'stains' are already cleansed:

Christ already removed our stains.

But does this mean that all Christans are completely free of all sin here and now, and never will be stained by sin again? Or if a Christian sins, they are immediately cleansed again?

I stress that sin has consequences. If you work out, you become stronger. If you eat unhealthy food, you become unhealthy. If you sin, you become more sinful. If you do holy things (prayer, Sacraments, good deeds ...), you grow in holiness. And God, as our Father and great teacher, will teach us that our actions have consequences. And as we become grown-ups in the faith, we must take responsability for our actions. This is all in the context of Christ, of course. Christ gives us the power to truly grow in holiness and be holy - a power no man has in and of himself. It is not a matter of salvation - it is about the lives of those who are saved by the Blood of Christ. It is not as much a struggle as it is cooperation with the grace of God.

That's the main purpose of penance - to counteract the bad with something good. In the same way that working out will 'cancel out' and 'counteract' that greasy burger I downed in my car after work by burning the calories. Purgatory and penance are more about cultivating the soul, teaching it to be more holy - than aobut actually paying for your own sins.

 

[Chris V++]

understandings of Purgatory ranging from the traditional (a dire place of torment ... to the contemporary (a state of being outside of the space-time continuum in which God washes the soul from its temporal sins in a manner not unlike a refreshing shower).

However, in modern times, some theologians have speculated that the fires of Purgatory might actually be Christ himself cleansing the souls

I've heard even protestant pastors preach on something not too dissimilar to the more contemporary Catholic interpretation of the concept of purgatory- not about the indulgences doctrine or praying for the dead, but about standing before judgment, giving an account, perhaps even being corrected, having our hypocrisy exposed and addressed, every secret sin revealed .. etc

Romans 14
10You, then, why do you judge your brother or sistera ? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’ ”b
12So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.

 

[Fidelibus]

Once again Cris-V, it would behoove you to go the Catholic Church herself for your research to avoid the conflicting opinions/ fallicies/ mis-information you are getting here on this forum from biased non-Catholics/anti-Catholics with an agenda.

 

[Chris V++]

Some good reliable Catholic sites are Catholic.com/ Catholicanswers.com/ EWTN.com/ askacatholic.com, and type in Purgatory.

Thanks for the link! I just visited and thought I'd paste these notes taken from the site:

'Catholic Notes:
When talking with friends and family on Purgatory, it’s important they know the basics:

• Purgatory does exist.
• Purgatory is not a third place along with Heaven and Hell nor it is a second chance.
• Purgatory has nothing to do with Limbo, which was only a theological opinion and was never a doctrine of the Church.
• Purgatory is like the Holy Hospital of Heaven.
• Souls in Purgatory have been saved just as much as the souls in Heaven.

Purgatory refers to a temporary state of purification for those who have died in the state of grace but still need to get rid of any lingering imperfections (venial sins, earthly attachments, self-will, etc.) before entering the perfection of Heaven.

Purgatory has nothing to do with one's justification or salvation. Those in Purgatory are justified; they are saved. Purgatory has to do with one's personal holiness and the burning away of remaining self-love. Revelation 21:27 It's our personal holiness because each person uses their free will differently in life to make good or bad choices on our pilgrimage to our particular judgment.'

 

[Major1]

Right here is the crux of the matter. They die, their soul dirtied and stained by sin. So if they go straight to heaven, does that mean that there is sin and sinfulness in heaven? How can the sinful souls stand before the throne of the all-holy God in heaven, when not even Moses could see the Face of God and still live? Yes, these souls are "declared righteous" and justified, but objectively, they are still sinful. They might be coated in the righteousness and holiness of Christ, but if they are not themselves made holy and sinless, then they are still objectively sinful. They are not condemned, but they are still sinful. Face to Face with God. That is the problem.

Or are the souls cleansed and purified immediately, even released, from all sin upon entering heaven? Because if that's the case, then that is what I mean by Purgatory: a post-death cleansing of the soul. Immediately or not, if there is some sort of cleansing of sin after death, then that is Purgatory.

The third option would be to say that the souls are already cleansed in this life, and only the flesh is sinful, and therefore they can immediately enter heaven without purification. But that would imply that the soul itself, the seat of the reason and the will, cannot sin. And that brings its own sets of theological issues with it.

My dear friend, the soul of a believer IS NOT DIRTY or stained by sin.
The soul of a sinner is PURIFIED by the blood of Jesus the moment he accepts Christ as Saviour.

The Spirit of God comes to indwell (live within) us the very moment that we acknowledge our guilt of sin, that is, our sinnership, and trust upon the gospel news that Christ died, was buried and rose from the dead, having shed His blood for our sins...

John 3:5-7,............
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”

No one can enter into the kingdom of God without being born anew of the Spirit of God, born from above. Being born-again means to have He, Jesus Christ, Who is the beginning, born in us. What a beautiful Savior!

The Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit lives within the body of the believer.

1st Corinthians 3:16-17........
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”

The believer's body is the tabernacle of the Holy Sprit. The unsaved do not have God's Holy Spirit, Who is literally God in us. The unsaved only have darkness in them. Jesus is the light, Who brightens our soul as Christians.

Then to answer your question about Moses. NO OLD TEST. SAINTS SOUL WENT TO HEAVEN. Then went to the PARSDISE side of Shaole/Hades.
When Jesus died, and then took them with Him when He asended to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8-9..............
"When He ascended up on high He led captive a host of captives, and He received (and gave) gifts to and for mankind. Now this expression, that He ascended, means that He first descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is the One who also ascended far above all...".

What YOU are supporting and promoting is and has been outragiouse. DO NOT accept what is being said to YOU. YOU do the study. YOU do the work and what you will find is that over the centuries billions of dollars have been paid to Roman Catholic priests to obtain relief from imaginary sufferings in Purgatory’s fire.

The Catholic clergy has always taught that the period of suffering in Purgatory can be shortened by purchasing indulgences and novenas, buying Mass cards and providing gifts of money. When a Catholic dies, money is extracted from mourning loved ones to shorten the deceased’s punishment in Purgatory.
Purgatory: Purifying Fire or False Doctrine Fable

 

[Major1]

Thanks for the link! I just visited and thought I'd paste these notes taken from the site:

'Catholic Notes:
When talking with friends and family on Purgatory, it’s important they know the basics:

• Purgatory does exist.
• Purgatory is not a third place along with Heaven and Hell nor it is a second chance.
• Purgatory has nothing to do with Limbo, which was only a theological opinion and was never a doctrine of the Church.
• Purgatory is like the Holy Hospital of Heaven.
• Souls in Purgatory have been saved just as much as the souls in Heaven.

Purgatory refers to a temporary state of purification for those who have died in the state of grace but still need to get rid of any lingering imperfections (venial sins, earthly attachments, self-will, etc.) before entering the perfection of Heaven.

Purgatory has nothing to do with one's justification or salvation. Those in Purgatory are justified; they are saved. Purgatory has to do with one's personal holiness and the burning away of remaining self-love. Revelation 21:27 It's our personal holiness because each person uses their free will differently in life to make good or bad choices on our pilgrimage to our particular judgment.'

And what is true my friend, is that not one single word posted from the Catholic Notes is found in the Bible.

Again......There is not one single word or suggestion of Purgatory in the Bible.

Another motivation for Rome to fabricate the heretical doctrine of Purgatory is its powerful effect on controlling people. Ultimately, the enslavement and subjugation of people is the goal of every false religion, and Purgatory does exactly that. The concept of a terrifying prison with a purging fire, governed by religious leaders, is a most brilliant invention. It holds people captive, not only in this life but also in the next life. Catholic clergy will not say how many years people have to suffer for their sins or how many Masses must be purchased before they can be released from the flames. This dreadful fear and uncertainty is the most ruthless form of religious bondage and deception!
www.girdedwithtruth.org/purgatory-purifying-fire-or-false-doctrine-fable/

 

[Fidelibus]

Thanks for the link!

Hello Cris-V, and you are most welcome.

I do however feel Major1's post #28 should be addressed (remember those with an agenda I told you about?) To quote:

And what is true my friend, is that not one single word posted from the Catholic Notes is found in the Bible.

Again......There is not one single word or suggestion of Purgatory in the Bible.

He being a self proclaimed sola scripturist, (the bible alone) you should ask him, if he beleives in the Trinity, The Incarnation, Redemption, and the Bible. If so, have him show you, (using the bible alone) where the words "Trinity." .... "Incarnation." and "Redemption." and the worb "Bible" are "SPECIFICALLY" found in the bible. That is if you don't mind being put on his "ignore" list like I have..... asking the same. (which is unfortunate, but not losing any sleep over)

Check out this link from convert and Catholic Answers Apologist Tim Staples.


www.catholic.com/.../is-purgatory-in-the-bible, or


www.catholic.com/.../is-purgatory-found-in-the-bible




Have a Blessed and Holy Triduum

 

[Chris V++]

He being a self proclaimed sola scripturist, (the bible alone) you should ask him, if he beleives in the Trinity, The Incarnation, Redemption, and the Bible

I think I understand what you are saying; the fact that the word 'Purgatory' isn't written in the bible doesn't disprove the concept. If the doctrine of the 'Trinity' can be implied from scripture although the word doesn't appear, why can't the doctrine of 'Purgatory' be implied if not expressly stated. But can Purgatory, as it is currently understood, be implied from scripture? The selling of indulgences aspect of it seems insidious to me but is no longer practiced apparently. Making sin offerings also seems problematic. The scripture pertaining to entering 'as if by fire' requires reflection on my part. I can't fault Major or anyone else for wanting to verify with scripture since scripture itself expects it of us. The Bible does warn us against false teachers and doctrines of devils, which seems to oblige the reader to research doctrine to verify if it accords.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I tried to follow the links you posted but I'm getting the dreaded http 403 error.

I hope this sensitive subject doesn't offend anyone. As Christians we feel an obligation to correct one another and feathers do get ruffled. These really are matters of life and death and not to be trifled with. Thanks again!

 

[bbbbbbb]

One of the curiosities of contemporary Catholicism has been what to do about us Protestants. In the old days it was simple enough to relegate us to hell along with all other non-Catholics. However, that did not seem to go down very well and Protestantism has continued to go its merry way apart from all of the anathematizing of the Catholic Church beginning with the Council of Trent.

Now, however, Protestants have been informed that we are "separated brethren" with the possibility of salvation, according to the Catholic Church. Most of us, however, are not particularly concerned about going to a Catholic heaven, being convinced that our salvation is secure in Jesus Christ alone. What's more, we don't have anything like Purgatory to be concerned about. Thus, the carrot on the stick being held out for us has little to no value.

The problem now is that if Protestants get to go to Catholic heaven, do they also get to go to Catholic Purgatory and, if so, is the old-time Catholic Purgatory of torture and suffering or the modern Catholic Purgatory of a pleasant cleansing shower?

 

[Chris V++]

Now, however, Protestants have been informed that we are "separated brethren" with the possibility of salvation, according to the Catholic Church. Most of us, however, are not particularly concerned about going to a Catholic heaven, being convinced that our salvation is secure in Jesus Christ alone. What's more, we don't have anything like Purgatory to be concerned about. Thus, the carrot on the stick being held out for us has little to no value.

The problem now is that if Protestants get to go to Catholic heaven, do they also get to go to Catholic Purgatory and, if so, is the old-time Catholic Purgatory of torture and suffering or the modern Catholic Purgatory of a pleasant cleansing shower?

If even missing church, and not taking Catholic communion or participating in the other sacraments are considered mortal sins, and if those mortal sins are un confessed and no penance/absolution/reconciliation granted, how can a 'separated brethren' expect even Purgatory?
There seems to be a disconnect between what the doctrine actually implies and how some of the membership prefers or is determined to understand it.

I just read this quote from a featured thread about how heretics are defined: 'Heretics' -- Different Definition for Catholics and Orthodox versus Protestants?

In the case of Rome, Vatican II explicitly said that Orthodox and Protestant Christians are not heretics, but are regarded as "separated brethren", i.e. fellow Christians outside of communion with the Catholic Church and the See of Rome.

In the case of Orthodoxy, I suspect it's more complicated; technically if the Orthodox are Orthodox then non-Orthodox are not Orthodox--and thus heterodox by definition. But Orthodoxy does not say that non-Orthodox Christians are not Christians, for example a famous Orthodox saint and theologian, St. Theophan the Recluse specifically said, "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern." To go further, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware wrote, "Does it therefore follow that anyone who is not visibly within the Church is necessarily damned? Of course not; still less does it follow that everyone who is visibly within the Church is necessarily saved. As Augustine wisely remarked: 'How many sheep there are without, how many wolves within!' (Homilies on John, 45, 12) While there is no division between a 'visible' and an 'invisible Church', yet there may be members of the Church who are not visibly such, but whose membership is known to God alone. If anyone is saved, he must in some sense be a member of the Church; in what sense, we cannot always say."

I have frequently encountered the Orthodox using the expression, "We know where the Church is, but we don't know where the Church is not."

 

[bbbbbbb]

If even missing church, and not taking Catholic communion or participating in the other sacraments are considered mortal sins, and if those mortal sins are un confessed and no penance/absolution/reconciliation granted, how can a 'separated brethren' expect even Purgatory?
There seems to be a disconnect between what the doctrine actually implies and how some of the membership prefers or is determined to understand it.

I just read this quote from a featured thread about how heretics are defined: 'Heretics' -- Different Definition for Catholics and Orthodox versus Protestants?

I have yet to receive an understandable explanation from a Catholic regarding this enormous conundrum.

 

[Phil 1:21]

But can Purgatory, as it is currently understood, be implied from scripture?

No. Scripture is very clear to the contrary, which is why some attempt to cloud the issue by confusing the lack of an exact word (ex: "trinity") with the doctrine it represents.

 

[Fidelibus]

I have yet to receive an understandable explanation from a Catholic regarding this enormous conundrum.

You could ask the many Catholic Apologists either live in the Radio or via email at Catholicanswers.com

 

[Major1]

I think I understand what you are saying; the fact that the word 'Purgatory' isn't written in the bible doesn't disprove the concept. If the doctrine of the 'Trinity' can be implied from scripture although the word doesn't appear, why can't the doctrine of 'Purgatory' be implied if not expressly stated. But can Purgatory, as it is currently understood, be implied from scripture? The selling of indulgences aspect of it seems insidious to me but is no longer practiced apparently. Making sin offerings also seems problematic. The scripture pertaining to entering 'as if by fire' requires reflection on my part. I can't fault Major or anyone else for wanting to verify with scripture since scripture itself expects it of us. The Bible does warn us against false teachers and doctrines of devils, which seems to oblige the reader to research doctrine to verify if it accords.

1Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I tried to follow the links you posted but I'm getting the dreaded http 403 error.

I hope this sensitive subject doesn't offend anyone. As Christians we feel an obligation to correct one another and feathers do get ruffled. These really are matters of life and death and not to be trifled with. Thanks again!

Yes, you are correct. My experience in these matters is that when those who are shown the correct BIBLE teachings which is in conflict with their traditions and denominational theology, they always become personal and have their feathers ruffled.

Now, The reason is real simple my friend. The Trinity, Incarnation and Redemption are all spoken of, taught, explained and accepted even thought he exact words are not there. Even the Catholic church accepts and TEACHES the Trinity, and the Incarnation and Redemption which some how is not mentioned.

However, Purgatory is NEVER EVER seen in the Bible, neither is it mentioned or suggested in what whatsoever. The word and the idea are completely foreign to the Bible just as are the other many non-Biblical teachings that come out of the RCC.

My dear friend said to you that those 3 doctrinal words ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE.
What he failed to mention to you is that ....................
The Immaculate Conception of Mary is not in the Bible either but is accepted and taught by the RCC.
The "sinlessness" of Mary is not in the Bible but is accepted and taught by the RCC.
The Rosary is not in the Bible but is accepted and taught by the RCC.
The Assumption of Mary is not in the Bible but is accepted and taught by the RCC.

IF you want to accept the idea of Purgatory......please go right ahead and do so.
But you can not do it and say that it is Biblical. It is SOLELY a Catholic dogma and nothing more.

Purgatory comes from the Latin word “purgare,” which means to make clean or to purify. The Catholic Encyclopedia defines purgatory as “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” They must be purified of these “venial” sins before they can be allowed into heaven. Here we see Catholicism perpetuating the seductive lie of Satan by declaring “you will not surely die” when you commit venial sins (Gen. 3:4).

The Council of Trent dares to declare that “God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction and will punish sin…The sinner, failing to do penance in this life, may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.” (Session 15, Can. XI).

Those Catholic Bishops had the audacity to declare that the suffering and death of God’s perfect man and man’s perfect substitute was not sufficient to satisfy divine justice for sin.Purgatory: Purifying Fire or False Doctrine Fable

 

[Major1]

I have yet to receive an understandable explanation from a Catholic regarding this enormous conundrum.

And you never will. All you will get is a smoke screen......deception and then personal attacks to defect from the truth of God's Word.

 

[Phil 1:21]

As we commemorate Good Friday today, remember the words Jesus spoke to the criminal crucified next to Him who asked for salvation...

“Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43

 

[Major1]

If even missing church, and not taking Catholic communion or participating in the other sacraments are considered mortal sins, and if those mortal sins are un confessed and no penance/absolution/reconciliation granted, how can a 'separated brethren' expect even Purgatory?
There seems to be a disconnect between what the doctrine actually implies and how some of the membership prefers or is determined to understand it.

I just read this quote from a featured thread about how heretics are defined: 'Heretics' -- Different Definition for Catholics and Orthodox versus Protestants?

My dear friend........open YOUR Bible and find the verses or verse that says "Missing Church, Not taking Catholic Communion, or participating in other sacraments" are mortal sins which lead to NO reconciliation to God the Father.

Do yourself this favor and do the work. FIND ANY BIBLE SCRIPTURES WHICH SAY THOSE THINGS!!!!!

 

[bbbbbbb]

You could ask the many Catholic Apologists either live in the Radio or via email at Catholicanswers.com

Thanks. I will take your second suggestion because it will enable them to formulate a better answer than giving me one off the cuff. I will try to keep you posted.

I just went to the website and attempted to sign up. I have never been at this website ever and this is the response I got -

The account that owns the email address you entered has been disabled.

What's up with that?