Purgatory and Sin Offerings?

Major1 said:

Mark, I think that the push back that will take place here from a lot of Protestants is the simple fact that Purgatory is not a Bible doctrine at all.

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I would actually argue that Purgatory is, in fact, Scriptural.

Matthew 5:25-26 . This either refers to Hell, or to someplace completely different. Either Hell is temporary, or something else is being described there. I'd definitely point to this passage as hinting at, if not directly referring to, Purgatory.

Gracia Singh said:

I would actually argue that Purgatory is, in fact, Scriptural.

Matthew 5:25-26 . This either refers to Hell, or to someplace completely different. Either Hell is temporary, or something else is being described there. I'd definitely point to this passage as hinting at, if not directly referring to, Purgatory.

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I am sorry by dear but NO, you can not argue that Purgatory is Biblical. Well, I guess you can argue but you can not do it and be Biblical in any way whatsoever for the simple reason that it is NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

To suggest that Matthew 5:25-26 is suggesting Purgatory IS ABSOLUTLEY false.

In those verses, Jesus is making a comparison between the command not to murder and the inner motive and conditio9n of the heart of hatred He spoke of in verses 23 and 24.

Then in 26 and 26 He went on to say that even if THINE ADVERSARY (opponent at Law) disagrees with you, it is to your advantage to reconcile with him.

Jesus' exhortation here is to urge all of us to go out of our way to avoid legal conflicts before human judges (verss 40).

The payment then of debt and the PRISON referred to here simply means the normal legal process that anyone would encounter in a civil lawsuit.

What YOU have tried to do is make a Bible verse say what YOU want it to say because the RCC has told you it will work to fit a false teaching of Purgatory into the Bible.

My dear friend, the teaching of Purgatory is NOT IN THE BILE! It is strictly a Catholic teaching made up by men for the purpose of practicing "INDULGENCES".

Do not take my word for it. YOU look it up on your computer and there it IS

thecolorsblend said:

I listened to an episode of Catholic Answers recently which does a pretty good job of teaching what Purgatory is (and, as importantly, what it isn't).

Those interested can find the episode at The Bible Blueprint for Purgatory | Catholic Answers where it can be streamed or downloaded for free. Pretty good episode of the show, I must say.

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Instead of watching a Catholic video, why not just post the Bible verses where we all can read what the explanation of Purgatory is straight from the source without having to be exposed to anyone's slanted view.

So then............what are those Scriptures ???

Major1 said:

Instead of watching a Catholic video,

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What I posted was a link to a radio show, which is also distributed as a podcast. People can stream that radio show or download it, both are free of charge.

Major1 said:

why not just post the Bible verses where we all can read what the explanation of Purgatory is straight from the source without having to be exposed to anyone's slanted view.

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Um, because it's a talk show and the entire point of this episode is to discuss those passages in continuity with Church teachings. Karlo Broussard, the guest for that episode, is a Catholic apologist and so he probably knows more than the average Catholic member of CF so listening to his thoughts on the matter as well as his responses to Protestants who call in could be instructive. If you don't want to listen, it's not like anybody is trying to force you to.

thecolorsblend said:

What I posted was a link to a radio show, which is also distributed as a podcast. People can stream that radio show or download it, both are free of charge.

Um, because it's a talk show and the entire point of this episode is to discuss those passages in continuity with Church teachings. Karlo Broussard, the guest for that episode, is a Catholic apologist and so he probably knows more than the average Catholic member of CF so listening to his thoughts on the matter as well as his responses to Protestants who call in could be instructive. If you don't want to listen, it's not like anybody is trying to force you to.

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NO, I do not want to listen as there is not one single thing that can be said that would change what I already know from your own RCC informational productions.

I noticed that YOU DID NOT post one single Bible Scripture to support the Catholic teaching of Purgatory.

Is there a reason for that not being done????

Major1 said:

NO, I do not want to listen as there is not one single thing that can be said that would change what I already know from your own RCC informational productions.

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Okay. Don't listen to the show then.

Major1 said:

I noticed that YOU DID NOT post one single Bible Scripture to support the Catholic teaching of Purgatory.

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Very true.

Major1 said:

Is there a reason for that not being done????

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Yes. I was interested in posting a link to the radio show rather than posting scriptures. So I posted a link to the radio show rather than scriptures.

thecolorsblend said:

Okay. Don't listen to the show then.

Very true.

Yes. I was interested in posting a link to the radio show rather than posting scriptures. So I posted a link to the radio show rather than scriptures.

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NOPE!

You did not and will not list any Scriptures to support Purgatory BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE!

We both know that so why be so coy ????

Major1 said:

You did not and will not list any Scriptures to support Purgatory BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE!

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I have posted a few in the past. IIRC, you did not believe that they relate to Purgatory. Such is obviously your right but, frankly, the only thing that really matters is that Catholics believe those passages relate to Purgatory.

Major1 said:

We both know that so why be so coy ????

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Coy? All I did was post a link to the radio show... which can be found at...

The Bible Blueprint for Purgatory | Catholic Answers

My objective wasn't to post scriptures. It was to post a link to the radio show. Thus, I posted a link to the radio show. I therefore fulfilled my objective.

Your objective seems to be not listening to the radio show. Which is your choice but there's nothing coy about me posting a link to something which I believe may benefit others if they have questions about Purgatory.

thecolorsblend said:

Yes, exactly. Why do Protestants get upset over the Church's opinions?

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If purgatory was simply an idea or hypothesis the I would say that it’s not a big deal but purgatory is not just an opinion it’s a doctrine. Brother we should base doctrines on opinions. The Roman church is teaching that purgatory is a fact and yet there is no biblical evidence to support it or early church father’s writings to support it either. Purgatory is based on assumptions not direct statements in the Bible. The reason so many people reject it is because it teaches that Jesus’s sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins. This is a dangerous teaching because it not only diminishes Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross but also causes people to believe that they to must pay for their sins and thus not fully trust in Christ as their atonement and Savior. Another thing to consider is believing in purgatory is not necessary for salvation. If such a place does exist someone will not be condemned or looked down upon by God for not believing in it because they are putting all their trust in Jesus as their atonement and Savior. Now if it doesn’t exist will God look upon someone unfavorably for not fully relying on Jesus as their atonement and Savior? I don’t know for certain but to me it’s not worth the risk. So I choose to believe that Jesus fully paid for all our sins.

Gracia Singh said:

I would actually argue that Purgatory is, in fact, Scriptural.

Matthew 5:25-26 . This either refers to Hell, or to someplace completely different. Either Hell is temporary, or something else is being described there. I'd definitely point to this passage as hinting at, if not directly referring to, Purgatory.

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That verse can be talking about almost anything. Is it enough evidence to support forming a doctrine? No

““When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison. And if that happens, you surely won’t be free again until you have paid the last penny.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:25-26‬ ‭

It is also very possible that this is not even a parable. Jesus very well could’ve been speaking literally.

BNR32FAN said:

The Roman church is teaching that purgatory is a fact and yet there is no biblical evidence to support it

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In the post before yours, I linked to a Catholic talk show which discusses Purgatory and the biblical concept of it. You may find it instructive to listen if you're interested.

BNR32FAN said:

or early church father’s writings to support it either.

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Are you sure? Church Fathers contains quite a few references to Purgatory ranging from 190 AD to 421 AD.

BNR32FAN said:

Purgatory is based on assumptions not direct statements in the Bible.

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That isn't entirely true. But, as I've said, Catholics don't believe sacred scripture is the only source for doctrine. So while you may find that point insightful (if it's true, which it really isn't), Catholics don't.

BNR32FAN said:

The reason so many people reject it is because it teaches that Jesus’s sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins.

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This is another fairly common misunderstanding.

Catholics believe that the purpose of Purgatory is sanctification; not justification. The faithful's salvation is not in question. What's lacking is the necessary sanctification the faithful would need to enter Heaven. Sanctification might happen in life or it might happen in death but sanctification must take place before entering Heaven is possible.

thecolorsblend said:

Are you sure? Church Fathers contains quite a few references to Purgatory ranging from 190 AD to 421 AD

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Can you please share those writings? If what you say is true then the Orthodox Church would also believe in purgatory. But they don’t.

BNR32FAN said:

Can you please share those writings? If what you say is true then the Orthodox Church would also believe in purgatory. But they don’t.

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Again, it's at Church Fathers.

BNR32FAN said:

Can you please share those writings? If what you say is true then the Orthodox Church would also believe in purgatory. But they don’t.

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They still believe in a state of purging of sorts. But even that differs in details.

One of my favorite illustrations is from St. Gregory of Nyssa, about his sister St. Macrina. She was his "tutor" of sorts, and taught him much of the Faith. As she was on her deathbed, she gave one last lesson about death. She related a man's life to building a house. Depending on what was in your life, your house would reflect that with elaborate furnishings, and construction. But at death, it's like this whole house crashes on top of you. When Jesus (and he always does) takes you out of the rubble to welcome you, the pain you'll bear in getting out of the rubble (planks of wood jammed into your sides or something) will all depend on how your house was built. If you had died to the world and took up your cross in this life, there'd be little in your house's construction that will make it painful to adapt to heaven. But if you died with all kinds of worldly attachments and concerns, then it'll be harder to adapt.

You could call it a "purging", I guess, but it's not a "place".

thecolorsblend said:

Again, it's at Church Fathers.

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The Catholic Church disregarded all those writings as evidence for purgatory for over a thousand years. Prayers for the dead is not evidence of purgatory. Because of God’s omniscience and omnipresence our prayers for someone who has already died can be taken into consideration before or when they die. God already knew every prayer that everyone will ever pray before creation.

BNR32FAN said:

The reason so many people reject it is because it teaches that Jesus’s sacrifice doesn’t pay for all our sins.

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thecolorsblend said:

This is another fairly common misunderstanding.

Catholics believe that the purpose of Purgatory is sanctification; not justification. The faithful's salvation is not in question. What's lacking is the necessary sanctification the faithful would need to enter Heaven. Sanctification might happen in life or it might happen in death but sanctification must take place before entering Heaven is possible.

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Let’s see what the catechism has to say about purgatory.

1031. "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. [Cf. Council of Florence (1439): DS 1304; Council of Trent (1563): DS 1820; (1547): 1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336): DS 1000.] The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence (1439) and Trent(1563). The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire. [Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.] As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come. [St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4, 39: PL 77, 396; cf. Mt 12:32-36.]"


1472. "To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the 'eternal punishment' of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. [Cf. Council of Trent (1551): DS 1712-1713; (1563): 1820.]"

First notice the date the doctrine was first formulated. 1439 at the council of Florence. Over 1000 years after the writings that were provided in your link.

Now like I said the doctrine of purgatory teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins.

And by the way their interpretation of Matthew 12:31-32 is terrible.

““So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:31-32‬

Jesus did not say sins will be forgiven in the world to come. In fact He said the exact opposite. He said it will never be forgiven in this world or the world to come. Like I said the doctrine of purgatory is based on assumptions. The Roman church is assuming there is forgiveness in the world to come but nowhere in the Bible is forgiveness after death mentioned.

BNR32FAN said:

The Catholic Church disregarded all those writings as evidence for purgatory for over a thousand years. Prayers for the dead is not evidence of purgatory. Because of God’s omniscience and omnipresence our prayers for someone who has already died can be taken into consideration before or when they die. God already knew every prayer that everyone will ever pray before creation.

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Prayers for the dead *with the intention of alleviating their suffering undergone before they enter Heaven*, though, is.

BNR32FAN said:

First notice the date the doctrine was first formulated. 1439 at the council of Florence. Over 1000 years after the writings that were provided in your link.

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I don't think any Catholic will deny that our understanding of doctrines will improve and grow over time. I realize that Protestants often think they have neat little "gotcha" facts when they point to a given doctrine being defined in a given year or at a given council or something. But it's really nothing of the sort and, frankly, tends to suggest that the Protestant doesn't really understand as much as he thinks he does.

BNR32FAN said:

Now like I said the doctrine of purgatory teaches that Jesus’ sacrifice does not pay for all our sins.

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Yes you said that before. You were mistaken then and remain so now.

BNR32FAN said:

And by the way their interpretation of Matthew 12:31-32 is terrible.

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It nevertheless remains our interpretation. Our Lord specified that one particular sin won't be forgiven. We believe it's possible that He can forgive other sins after death. Whether or not you agree with that isn't the issue. We agree with that, which is what counts when it comes to our beliefs.

thecolorsblend said:

In the post before yours, I linked to a Catholic talk show which discusses Purgatory and the biblical concept of it. You may find it instructive to listen if you're interested.

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1 Corinthians 3:11-15 Purgatory?


The Roman Catholic Church teaches that 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 is evidence of purgatory, but is it? Let’s take a closer look.

“For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have Jesus Christ. Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.”

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

Looking at these verses by themselves it sure looks like it could be referring to purgatory. But we also need to understand that this is a parable because obviously no one can build on the foundation of Christ with “gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw.” So let’s look at strong’s dictionary for the definition of the word parable.

Parable

παροιμία

Transliteration:

paroimía

Pronounce:

par-oy-mee'-ah

Part of Speech:

Noun Feminine

Language:

greek

Description:

1) a saying out of the usual course or deviating from the usual manner of speaking a) a current or trite saying, a proverb

2) any dark saying which shadows forth some didactic truth a) esp. a symbolic or figurative saying b) speech or discourse in which a thing is illustrated by the use of similes and comparisons c) an allegory

1) extended and elaborate metaphor


Now when we’re dealing with a parable we need to understand that parables are used to elaborate on a particular subject that is currently being discussed. So let’s take a look at what is being discussed in verses 1-10 that Paul is elaborating on.


“Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world? After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed in your hearts, and Apollos watered it, but it was God who made it grow. It’s not important who does the planting, or who does the watering. What’s important is that God makes the seed grow. The one who plants and the one who waters work together with the same purpose. And both will be rewarded for their own hard work. For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building. Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.”

1 Corinthians 3:1-10

Paul is teaching the Corinthians that they shouldn’t argue and boast about some being a follower of Paul and some being a follower of Apollos because they each did the work God had given them and they both were working together for the same purpose. He then goes on to explain in verse 8 that both himself and Apollos will be rewarded according to their deeds. Verse 8 is the key to his parable. He explains that the Corinthians (believers) are God’s building and both he and Apollos are God’s workers and he has laid the foundation like a “expert builder”. By expert builder Paul is referring to someone who is teaching the good news. He says whoever builds on this foundation cannot lay any foundation other than Jesus Christ. Then he begins his parable to elaborate on what he has just said. Notice that Paul has not mentioned forgiveness of sin, sanctification, justification, purifying, salvation, heaven or anything else remotely concerning purgatory. Now when we read his parable in this context it makes perfect sense. Paul is describing works and how our works will be rewarded in heaven. Of course our reward is not salvation because our salvation is from God’s grace. The definition of grace is a free and unmerited favor of God.

So to say Paul is talking about purgatory in verses 11-15 doesn’t make sense. That would mean that Paul was discussing a specific topic then gave a parable about a complete different topic and never gave any kind of substantiating statements afterward to confirm that he had changed the subject. This would be like if I was explaining to someone how to ride a bicycle then suddenly said don’t count your chickens until they hatch. The person I’m talking to would look at me like I’m crazy and would be confused because my parable doesn’t support the subject being discussed.