Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[Xeno.of.athens]

1. The Treasury of Merit exists. This concept is unique to the Roman Catholic Church and, as such, can be traced not much further back than the Middle Ages.

I do not agree with the timing that you claim, but I am happy with beliefs that are unique to the Catholic Church.

2. God created it. This might be true if one conflates the RCC with God.

Jesus said, regarding the teaching of the disciples, "The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

3. God uses this alleged Treasury for evangelisation of the world.

Amen, he does do exactly that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As a Lutheran, one must defer to Scripture.

From Matthew Chapter 6

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[a] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

So this certainly sounds like a "treasury of merit". My former Pastor explained this more eloquently than I can but suffice it to say that it does not affect the "instantaneous purging of the stain of both our sins and the sinful nature we inherited from Adam; but may benefit or enhance our experience during our stay in heaven while we await the final judgement, and the creation of the new earth that we will inhabit. Bottom line is that we can earn and store up merits, and it is a good thing to do so.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

From Matthew Chapter 6

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[a] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

So this certainly sounds like a "treasury of merit". My former Pastor explained this more eloquently than I can but suffice it to say that it does not affect the "instantaneous purging of the stain of both our sins and the sinful nature we inherited from Adam; but may benefit or enhance our experience during our stay in heaven while we await the final judgement, and the creation of the new earth that we will inhabit. Bottom line is that we can earn and store up merits, and it is a good thing to do so.

Agreed that Matthew 6:20 speaks of treasures in heaven which is very much like a treasury of merit.

Your observation about an instantaneous purging is what I have said of Protestantism's implicit purgatory many times, and which has been rebuffed as many times by some in CF. An instant purgatory and the idea of purgatory in Catholic teaching may not be as inconsistent as some would suppose. The fundamental point made in the doctrine of purgatory is that one's remaining faults need to be purged before one can stand in God's presence.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606​

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Agreed that Matthew 6:20 speaks of treasures in heaven which is very much like a treasury of merit.

Your observation about an instantaneous purging is what I have said of Protestantism's implicit purgatory many times, and which has been rebuffed as many times by some in CF. An instant purgatory and the idea of purgatory in Catholic teaching may not be as inconsistent as some would suppose. The fundamental point made in the doctrine of purgatory is that one's remaining faults need to be purged before one can stand in God's presence.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. the tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606​

The all availing sacrifice of Christ, and the means of grace He provides in His Sacraments is sufficient. The thief who repented on the cross next to our Lord's, went tp paridixe the same day without a life time of devotion and good works. No one was praying for him except our Lord, no one celebrated masses for him; yet through his new found faith, the brief moments of what life remained with they 11th hour repentance was enough.

I see where the idea of merits come from, but their connection to the purging of one's sins or stains of sins at or following death is a stretch. If I am wrong, I will gladly do my time as God wills, no harm, no foul.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The all availing sacrifice of Christ, and the means of grace He provides in His Sacraments is sufficient. The thief who repented on the cross next to our Lord's, went tp paridixe the same day without a life time of devotion and good works. No one was praying for him except our Lord, no one celebrated masses for him; yet through his new found faith, the brief moments of what life remained with they 11th hour repentance was enough.

I see where the idea of merits come from, but their connection to the purging of one's sins or stains of sins at or following death is a stretch. If I am wrong, I will gladly do my time as God wills, no harm, no foul.

Saint Paul really does teach that one's works and one's soul are affected by a purging fire in first Corinthians chapter three.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

(1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV)

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Saint Paul really does teach that one's works and one's soul are affected by a purging fire in first Corinthians chapter three.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

(1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV)

While the reference to merits is still there the last bit that you are using to support purgatory more closely coincides with judgement on the last day. As we confess in the last bit of the Athanasian Creed:

.At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies;​

And shall give account for their own works.​

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;​

and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.​

This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.​

​

I think that those who compiled the Athanasian Creed most certainly were thinking of the passages you quoted above.

 

[prodromos]

Saint Paul really does teach that one's works and one's soul are affected by a purging fire in first Corinthians chapter three.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

(1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV)

1 Corinthians says they suffer loss. Purgatory is about restitution for past sins. Two completely different things.

 

[prodromos]

While the reference to merits is still there the last bit that you are using to support purgatory more closely coincides with judgement on the last day. As we confess in the last bit of the Athanasian Creed:

.At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies;​

And shall give account for their own works.​

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;​

and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.​

This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.​

​

I think that those who compiled the Athanasian Creed most certainly were thinking of the passages you quoted above.

It is in regards to the quality and motivation behind their works, not about dealing with the effects of sin. This is a case of starting with the doctrine, then looking for any Scripture they can interpret in a manner supportive of their doctrine

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

While the reference to merits is still there the last bit that you are using to support purgatory more closely coincides with judgement on the last day. As we confess in the last bit of the Athanasian Creed:

.At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies;​

And shall give account for their own works.​

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting;​

and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.​

This is the Catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.​

​

I think that those who compiled the Athanasian Creed most certainly were thinking of the passages you quoted above.

I was not referring to the time as much as to the purging by fire.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1 Corinthians says they suffer loss. Purgatory is about restitution for past sins. Two completely different things.

Your statement about purgatory is in error. Purgatory is about the person being purged of the marks of sin, one can think of habits and character traits. There is no retribution in it. It is like a penance performed as a means of reconciliation with the persons offended by one's actions.

 

[BobRyan]

It is God who sets the souls in purgatory free no pope and no one else can.

God is not the one who signs indulgences -- as it turns out.

As Luther pointed out - IF it were true that the Pope had such a power - then he is remiss for not granting plenary indulgences to all in purgatory - every day.

But since there is no Purgatory in scripture (as you seem to concede in your OP) -- the entire point is moot.

 

[BobRyan]

Your statement about purgatory is in error. Purgatory is about the person being purged of the marks of sin, one can think of habits and character traits. There is no retribution in it. It is like a penance performed as a means of reconciliation with the persons offended by one's actions.

If that were true - there would be no point in escaping it. No point in indulgences.

You leave out "so much"

Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".



The Catechism states
1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12
[/quote]

 

[BobRyan]

Saint Paul really does teach that one's works and one's soul are affected by a purging fire in first Corinthians chapter three.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

(1 Corinthians 3:10-15 ESV)

Says nothing about something happening after the person dies.
Says nothing about a dead person gaining benefit for having their teaching deleted
Says nothing about the PERSON being burned or purged. Only their teaching, their work

When something you have worked to build - is burned or destroyed - you suffer loss - but you are not burned in fire, you are not purged when your work gets deleted from the teachings affirmed/promoted by the church. Nor do you have to be dead first - to have your teaching rejected by the church.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, Christ is the head of the Catholic Church, His teachings were passed down through the Apostles. I suppose most do not think much about the fact that the Bible-only theory did not take off until over a thousand years later.

I don't mind Catholic arguments insisting that their doctrine is not based on the Bible - I tend to affirm them on that point when they make that argument.

 

[BobRyan]

No. No indeed. It is God who created that treasure and filled it with the infinite worth of the Son of God's sacrifice.

There is no such thing as a treasury of suffering that Christ and the saints contribute to - that can then be applied to someone in a non-Bible arena such as Purgatory after they die -- at least not according to the Bible

The wicked do not escape the grave by some act of gaining indulgence, nor do they escape hell. No one in hell ever escapes it via some indulgence. And of course as you noted - Purgatory is not even mentioned.

 

[prodromos]

Your statement about purgatory is in error. Purgatory is about the person being purged of the marks of sin, one can think of habits and character traits. There is no retribution in it. It is like a penance performed as a means of reconciliation with the persons offended by one's actions.

So what is the loss suffered by those in 'purgatory'?

 

[Valletta]

So what is the loss suffered by those in 'purgatory'?

You are not with God in Heaven.

 

[prodromos]

You are not with God in Heaven.

That is not what 1 Corinthians 3 describes.
Here it is again;

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

Nothing remotely resembling the doctrine of purgatory. Doesn't the doctrine teach that passing through purgatory is gain?

 

[bbbbbbb]

As a Lutheran, one must defer to Scripture.

From Matthew Chapter 6

19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust[a] destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

So this certainly sounds like a "treasury of merit". My former Pastor explained this more eloquently than I can but suffice it to say that it does not affect the "instantaneous purging of the stain of both our sins and the sinful nature we inherited from Adam; but may benefit or enhance our experience during our stay in heaven while we await the final judgement, and the creation of the new earth that we will inhabit. Bottom line is that we can earn and store up merits, and it is a good thing to do so.

As you are well aware, there is a vast difference between the Lutheran understanding of Purgatory and the good works of believers versus the RCC doctrines of Purgatory and the Treasure of Merit,

 

[bbbbbbb]

If that were true - there would be no point in escaping it. No point in indulgences.

You leave out "so much"

Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".



The Catechism states
1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

Council of Florence (1438-1443):
"If they have died repentant for their sins and having love of God, but have not made satisfaction for things they have done or omitted by fruits worthy of penance, then their souls, after death, are cleansed by the punishment of Purgatory...the suffrages of the faithful still living are efficacious in bringing them relief from such punishment, namely the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers and almsgiving and other works of piety which, in accordance with
the designation of the Church, are customarily offered by the faithful for each other." 12

[/QUOTE]
Hmmm. That does not sound like the warm bath promised today to Catholics after death.