Purgatory And Prayers For The Dead.

[Jipsah]

Only the Bible is the living Word of God, saying otherwise is a heresy.

Says who?

Btw the Bible says that hell is eternal, and sinners will suffer eternally so it is absolutely pointless praying for the dead.

God being bound in time as we are, right? Or can He answer a prayer before it's prayed? "Before Abraham was...".

 

[Jipsah]

The Holy Spirit stopped speaking through the prophets after Malachi died.

Says Scripture where, precisely?

We will all have to give account to God for things we do and say. Good luck telling Him sola scriptura is not true.

I'll leave telling God what rules He had to follow to you.

 

[The Liturgist]

Me too. Here's a short that just popped up:

I like listening to Fr. Spyridon too.

Well all this goes to show that I really made a fool of myself when I called you “anti-Orthodox”, so again, my apologies for that. Anyone who appreciates Fr. Josiah Trenham and dislikes the penal substitutionary atonement/satisfaction model of soteriology, that was derived from Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas and John Calvin, is moving towards having an Orthodox phronema.

 

[RileyG]

Isaiah 53 4-6 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Isaiah 53 10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;

Romans 5 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. (God is angry at us sinners, and we deserve wrath. But God, in order to save His people, poured the wrath on His Son)

In Matthew 20:20–28, the mother of James and John, in typical motherly fashion, asks Jesus whether her nice, upstanding sons can sit beside Jesus in his kingdom. James and John, through their mother, are seeking prominence. They want to be great.

Jesus answers, in atypical fashion, with a question: “Are you able to drink the cup that I am to drink?” (Matthew 20:22). This is not a rebuke as we might expect. It’s a simple question to which the brothers reply, “Yes, we are able to drink the cup.”

They don’t understand what Jesus is saying. He then turns to his other disciples, who are angered by James’s and John’s request because they themselves desired the same prime placement at Jesus’s right hand. But Jesus sets them straight, and us. Greatness in the kingdom of God is obtained along the path of love — the path of sacrifice, service, suffering.


Key passages in the Bible connect God’s wrath with the imagery of a cup. Jeremiah 25:15 tells us, “Thus the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: ‘Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.’” Then Isaiah 51:17 says, “O Jerusalem, you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of his wrath, who have drunk to the dregs the bowl, the cup of staggering.” In Revelation 14, an angel speaks, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger” (verses 9–10).

Jesus confirms this connection in Gethsemane when he prayed, the cross looming just ahead, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will” (Matthew 26:39).

The disciples will drink a cup, too — a cup of suffering (Matthew 20:23). But Jesus’s cup of suffering is different from theirs because Jesus’s suffering is under God’s anger. Jesus drinks the cup of God’s wrath, a cup that has accumulated the fury of God against sins of all types. Heinous crimes, adultery, careless words, dishonoring thoughts, lies — all of it will be punished by God.

This is the cup Jesus drinks on the cross

There, at Golgotha, our Savior drained God’s cup of burning anger down to the dregs. God poured out his wrath, full strength, undiluted, onto his Son. Paul summarizes the meaning of this great event, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus drank the cup of God’s wrath for us so that he could extend the cup of God’s fellowship to us.

We are getting off topic now, but thank you for quoting Scripture.

God bless

 

[RileyG]

Not at all. Only the saved of Christ go to purgatory.

You are an Anglican who believes in Purgatory? Interesting.

 

[Jipsah]

And we do know that there in NO GREEK word for PURGATORY in the KJV , PERIOD .

Nor is there one for the the internet, ergo it doesn't exist.

the DEAD are DEAD .

And nothing God, being bound by time, can do about it. Is God aware of that?

 

[RileyG]

the dead (those in heaven or in purgatory) are NOT dead. They are alive in Christ.

 

[RileyG]

And we do know that there in NO GREEK word for PURGATORY in the KJV , PERIOD .

THEORIES about ATONEMENT is found in found in Ex 29:36 and 37 , Eze 43:20 , 2 Cor 5:18 and 19 and many more in the OT and the DEAD are DEAD .

dan p

Neither is Trinity but it's still biblical.

 

[Jipsah]

Just out of curiosity, are you among the High Church / Anglo Catholics who believe in it?

I don't rule it out. I think the logic there is sound, and I find the arguments against it woefully thin.

Either way, whether one accepts purgatory or another soteriology, prayers for the dead are very important, and I love the Western All Souls Day and the Eastern Orthodox “Soul Saturdays.”

Agreed.

 

[Jipsah]

You are an Anglican who believes in Purgatory? Interesting.

To be honest, my Anglo-Catholicism feels more Catholic than Anglican. Having said that, while I tend to think that the idea of purgatory makes sense, I'm not prepared to be dogmatic about it. I do, however, dislike the generally ignorant uber-protestant raving against it push me toward accepting it as dogma.

 

[RileyG]

To be honest, my Anglo-Catholicism feels more Catholic than Anglican. Having said that, while I tend to think that the idea of purgatory makes sense, I'm not prepared to be dogmatic about it. I do, however, dislike the generally ignorant uber-protestant raving against it push me toward accepting it as dogma.

Gotcha! I love the prayers for the dead in The Book of Common Prayer and use them regularly for those who have passed on.

 

[Jipsah]

Because Jesus indicates in Luke 24:44 that the Jewish Scripture include, “The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.” In other words, Jesus breaks down the Jewish canon into three sections — the law, the prophets, and the writings (the Psalms represented the writings). Notice he doesn’t mention the Apocrypha.

Or the New Testament

 

[RileyG]

Or the New Testament

....Jesus also quoted from the Deutero-Canonical books ("Apocrypha") and would have been familiar with them.

Read them if you haven't already- they are outstanding.

 

[Jipsah]

So Word of God is not sufficient to you?

It doesn't set forth a canon of Scripture, for starters.

 

[Jipsah]

....Jesus also quoted from the Deutero-Canonical books ("Apocrypha") and would have been familiar with them.

Read them if you haven't already- they are outstanding.

Sounds like good counsel, and I admit I've neglected them. I'll download them now. Thanks!

 

[RileyG]

Sounds like good counsel, and I admit I've neglected them. I'll download them now. Thanks!

Tobit and Judith are relatively short, and Wisdom of Sirach is my absolute favorite of the seven (or eight if you are also getting 3 Maccabees).

 

[Jipsah]

At the risk of offending some, Purgatory is a myth. It doesn't exist, never has.

As it happens I believe the same of you. You're simply pixels on a screen who have to basis in reality.

This life is all you get to decide about Jesus.

And if you're saved, the concept is that before you enter Heaven you stop over in purgatory to be cleaned up so you don't stink when you get there.

When you die, your eternal destiny is set, forever.

Since God, being bound by time, can't have answered prayers on your behalf before you were dead. Some people love their "God can't..." stuff. Keeps God from interfering with their doctrines. Also, sola scriptura (and the other four solas) are true.

BTW, where does Scripture specify what writings constitute Scripture? You seem to accept the canon as a matter of tradition. Shouldn't you repent of that?

 

[Jipsah]

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The outer darkness (in heaven) is what believers who did not live up to a Christ like life, lived in their earthly body will experience. The judgment seat of The Messiah determines a believers position in the next life. The more warts (as you word it) the more loss they will receive at the Bema Seat judgment.

None of that explained in Scripture, though, is it?

 

[Jipsah]

I don't care what many Protestants believe, I care about what God says, and God says that He will not lose one, and nothing will separete us from Him

Sounds universalist.

 

[RileyG]

Sounds universalist.

Maybe they are referring to Romans 8:38-39?