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Why did the early Christians pray for the dead then? Is everyone perfect at death? I know I won't be.
Luk 12:47 “And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48 “But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.
Where is all of this punishment -a little punishment for some, a lot for others- to take place?
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
What is this fire that will reveal all men's works? Where does it happen?
“Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.” Matthew 5:25-26
I misunderstood it badly myself many years ago. What we have is a solid practice of prayers for the dead in conjunction with knowing prayers for those in hell are worthless. That leads to a conclusion that there are others, not bound for hell, where our prayers can matter. Then the developing understanding of the Last Things from the earlier more amorphous understanding of Sheol. It's easy not to get it. Throw in a temporary abuse in Germany of selling indulgences that Martin Luther rightly objected to and you get books ripped out of the Bible all so some people can say purgatory is un-Biblical.I totally misunderstood how the system works because It's something I never really looked into. But now that it's been explained to me I see the question I asked was completely irrelevant.
Agreed. Some of them restrict themselves to the Bible Alone and come up with the craziest interpretations. Including that the teaching of the Bible Alone is somehow included in Scripture when it isn't.Just because there are many interprations, does not mean the Bible is not true. It's not God's fault people do not interpret the Bible correctly.
How did you jump from 'Word of God is not sufficient for you' to telling me I reject the Word of God and telling me that I reject God? That does NOT follow.So Word of God is not sufficient to you? You reject the Word of God, you reject God.
Many of your Protestant brothers and sisters following Sola Scriptura also hold and teach that salvation can be lost. You say 'there is no debate about this' and 'how dare you' but then there IS debate about it even among followers of Sola Scriptura. I think you may need to take a breath. And maybe say 'how dare you' to them before saying it to me.Salvation cannot be lost. If anyone says it can, I have one message for you. How dare you. Hoy dare you to say to the Father that the perfect gift of His Son was not enough. God gave everything for us sinners on the cross, He gave Himself. By saying salvation can be lost, one is saying what God has done is not enough. There is no debate about this.
That's true enough. They have or they have not. They are saved or damned. Heaven or hell.It is not about a person being perfect. But has a person believed in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life while they are living in their physical body on earth..
Either they have or they have not.
It is no risk; it is a certainty that your comment will offend many. And, of course, the solas of Protestantism are "true" to protestant thinking but not to mine.At the risk of offending some, Purgatory is a myth. It doesn't exist, never has. This life is all you get to decide about Jesus. When you die, your eternal destiny is set, forever. When Jesus said, "It is finished", he wasn't talking about the biscuits in the oven, He was talking about salvation. Finished means exactly that, nothing else to be done. Also, sola scriptura (and the other four solas) are true.
That's true enough. They have or they have not. They are saved or damned. Heaven or hell.
But of those saved the argument is whether they are completely sanctified at the moment of death, ready for the beatific vision of God full time for all eternity or not yet quite prepared for it. So how does a person who before death was not yet prepared for eternal glory standing in the presence of God then get prepared for eternal glory when they are dead? Catholics have an answer for that question. The Orthodox and the Jews have a practice of praying for the dead which recognizes at least the problem. So how do you solve it? How do I go from being a saved person with all of my warts that I do have right now to being a saved person absolutely purified and prepared to stand for eternity before the Holy God?
I think Jesus was more concerned about Heavenly matters rather than setting up rules for courts on earth. Just my opinion.And the point you are making posting verses about people settling matters before going to court.
1 Cor 4 6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.Including that the teaching of the Bible Alone is somehow included in Scripture when it isn't.
If you are saying that the Word of God is not sufficient to you (because only the Scripture is the Word of God), then you are as good as rejecting it.How did you jump from 'Word of God is not sufficient for you' to telling me I reject the Word of God and telling me that I reject God? That does NOT follow.
I said 'how dare you' to everyone who teaches that salvation can be lost. The Bible is clear on this, there is nothing to debate there. That people question that salvation can be lost is questioning the work of Christ on the cross.Many of your Protestant brothers and sisters following Sola Scriptura also hold and teach that salvation can be lost. You say 'there is no debate about this' and 'how dare you' but then there IS debate about it even among followers of Sola Scriptura. I think you may need to take a breath. And maybe say 'how dare you' to them before saying it to me.
The Catholic church and many others teach of a immortal soul. The bible teaches we are mortal (subject to death) and will remain that way until Jesus returns. Hell is the grave (a dormant sleep) as Jesus affirms himself. Described as a sleep because Jesus has the power of resurrecting the dead.The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven. She also teaches us that, although the souls consigned to this intermediate state, commonly called purgatory, cannot help themselves, they may be aided by the suffrages of the faithful on earth. The existence of purgatory naturally implies the correlative dogma—the utility of praying for the dead—for the souls consigned to this middle state have not reached the term of their journey. They are still exiles from heaven and fit subjects for Divine clemency.
The doctrine of an intermediate state is thus succinctly asserted by the Council of Trent: “There is a Purgatory, and souls there detained, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.”
It is to be noted that the Council studiously abstains from specifying the nature of the expiating sufferings endured therein.
Is it not strange that this cherished doctrine should also be called in question by the levelling innovators of the sixteenth century, when we consider that it is clearly taught in the Old Testament; that it is, at least, insinuated in the New Testament; that it is unanimously proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church; that it is embodied in all the ancient liturgies of the Oriental and the Western church, and that it is a doctrine alike consonant with our reason and eminently consoling to the human heart?
'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking)The Catholic church and many others teach of a immortal soul. The bible teaches we are mortal (subject to death) and will remain that way until Jesus returns. Hell is the grave (a dormant sleep) as Jesus affirms himself. Described as a sleep because Jesus has the power of resurrecting the dead.
God is not some kind of a torturing monster and the "burn in hell" for eternity is non sense ... it's a terrible teaching.
God is merciful ... forfeiting of eternal life is the punishment ... I'm ok with that ... I'm not for torture and neither is God. How and the heck can someone love a god that supposedly tortures people for eternity? It's nonsense and quite sickening.'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking)
'Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' (Matthew 7:19, Jesus speaking)
'As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matthew 13:40-42, Jesus speaking)
'But unless you repent, you too will all perish.' (Luke 13:3, Jesus speaking)
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
God is just and therefore every ain must be punished. Either Christ pais for your sins, or you will be paying for your sins for eternity. Or do you expect God to reward us for our sins? I do not think so
People in hell will suffer the wrath of God for eternity.God is merciful ... forfeiting of eternal life is the punishment ... I'm ok with that ... I'm not for torture and neither is God. How and the heck can someone love a god that supposedly tortures people for eternity? It's nonsense and quite sickening.
Death is death ... the 2nd death is for eternity. The first death is temporal ... the 2nd death is for eternity and that is the punishment.
You offer a third alternative; cease to believe the orthodox apostolic faith and start to believe in "conditional immortality" with soul sleep and annihilationism or remain in the apostolic faith and eschew the errors you've recommended.The Catholic church and many others teach of a immortal soul. The bible teaches we are mortal (subject to death) and will remain that way until Jesus returns. Hell is the grave (a dormant sleep) as Jesus affirms himself. Described as a sleep because Jesus has the power of resurrecting the dead.
God is not some kind of a torturing monster and the "burn in hell" for eternity is non sense ... it's a terrible teaching.
Your opinion that purgatory is a myth doesn't offend me. It's just your opinion after all.At the risk of offending some, Purgatory is a myth.
If you are wrong you probably get to go there. But you will be consoled by knowing your future is to enjoy the Beatific Vision for all eternity.It doesn't exist, never has.
You may not appreciate this but Catholics agree. In the end it's heaven or hell. No getting out of hell. Only those heaven bound are allowed in purgatory. It's a temporary and preparatory state leading to heaven. Very unlike hell, the permanent deprivation of the vision of God.This life is all you get to decide about Jesus. When you die, your eternal destiny is set, forever.
And those who enter purgatory are already saved by the grace of God. They are partially sanctified by the grace of God in this life and they complete that sanctification not finished on the day they die in purgatory. So 'It is finished' is true, but the application of that is through our lives, or after we die.When Jesus said, "It is finished", he wasn't talking about the biscuits in the oven, He was talking about salvation. Finished means exactly that, nothing else to be done.
Sola Scriptura is a belly flop. Of the others, and there are at least four more by common count (Faith Alone, Grace Alone, Christ Alone, Gloria of God Alone), you might be able to make a limited case. For example, Lutherans and Catholics have agreed on justification. But Sola Scriptura has been a disaster for you all. It's not Scriptural, it's a latecomer dogma, it makes a mess of exegesis, and it has severely fragmented Christian witness. A better concept would be Scripture First, something more reliable that would have made less of a mess.Also, sola scriptura (and the other four solas) are true.
Our immortality is conditional ... Whosoever believes ...You offer a third alternative; cease to believe the orthodox apostolic faith and start to believe in "conditional immortality" with soul sleep and annihilationism or remain in the apostolic faith and eschew the errors you've recommended.
There is no such thing as a immortal "soul" ... humans are mortal (subject to death) nobody is immortal except God ... period.The Catholic Church teaches that, besides a place of eternal torments for the wicked and of everlasting rest for the righteous, there exists in the next life a middle state of temporary punishment, allotted for those who have died in venial sin, or who have not satisfied the justice of God for sins already forgiven. She also teaches us that, although the souls consigned to this intermediate state, commonly called purgatory, cannot help themselves, they may be aided by the suffrages of the faithful on earth. The existence of purgatory naturally implies the correlative dogma—the utility of praying for the dead—for the souls consigned to this middle state have not reached the term of their journey. They are still exiles from heaven and fit subjects for Divine clemency.
The doctrine of an intermediate state is thus succinctly asserted by the Council of Trent: “There is a Purgatory, and souls there detained, are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar.”
It is to be noted that the Council studiously abstains from specifying the nature of the expiating sufferings endured therein.
Is it not strange that this cherished doctrine should also be called in question by the levelling innovators of the sixteenth century, when we consider that it is clearly taught in the Old Testament; that it is, at least, insinuated in the New Testament; that it is unanimously proclaimed by the Fathers of the Church; that it is embodied in all the ancient liturgies of the Oriental and the Western church, and that it is a doctrine alike consonant with our reason and eminently consoling to the human heart?
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