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I agree that it does not really matter if it is a parable or historical. That said, can you explain how it teaches that the dead do hear prayers? I read a conversation between dead people, and a request from a dead person to send another dead person to living people, but I don't read living people praying to dead people.Some evangelicals insist that it is a history, you say a parable, I say it does not matter because it is the teaching of Christ that the dead do hear prayers.
Read it and think it though; the rich man is dead, he calls out to "father Abraham" who hears him, and father Abraham is dead. The rich man asks for the beggar's help, but that request is refused, then he asks for mercy on his five brothers, and that too is refused. reasons were given for each refusal. The whole conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another. And the Lord, Jesus Christ, deliberately chose this story as background for his teaching on doing good, judgement, and the state of the dead for both the good and the wicked.I agree that it does not really matter if it is a parable or historical. That said, can you explain how it teaches that the dead do hear prayers? I read a conversation between dead people, and a request from a dead person to send another dead person to living people, but I don't read living people praying to dead people.
I agree with all of that, but I am still not grasping how "conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another" teaches that the dead can hear prayers from the living.Read it and think it though; the rich man is dead, he calls out to "father Abraham" who hears him, and father Abraham is dead. The rich man asks for the beggar's help, but that request is refused, then he asks for mercy on his five brothers, and that too is refused. reasons were given for each refusal. The whole conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another. And the Lord, Jesus Christ, deliberately chose this story as background for his teaching on doing good, judgement, and the state of the dead for both the good and the wicked.
It teaches that the dead can her prayers, in the specific case of the rich man and Lazarus it is prayer from a man in hell. A man or woman on earth ought to have a better chance of being heard, do you not agree?I agree with all of that, but I am still not grasping how "conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another" teaches that the dead can hear prayers from the living.
I would say that it teaches that the dead can converse, or pray to one another - or at most the ones in hell can pray to the people not in hell. It does not seem to teach that the dead can hear prayers of the living, it just isn't there.It teaches that the dead can her prayers, in the specific case of the rich man and Lazarus it is prayer from a man in hell.
I am not sure that I do. Being in a different realm and all, I am not sure that the dead can hear the living's prayers. God, being everywhere and all knowing can hear our prayers from anywhere and everywhere, but dead humans, not being so....I am not sure how they would hear our prayers directed to them from the living world. They are in a different place, after all.A man or woman on earth ought to have a better chance of being heard, do you not agree?
Let me put another case; on the mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus, Jesus a man on earth and alive was speaking to Moses a man long dead and Elijah a man translated to heaven without dying. Here is a case of an earthly man conversing with the dead; and the three apostles heard the conversation and participated by offering to build three tabernacles for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.I would say that it teaches that the dead can converse, or pray to one another - or at least the ones in hell can pray to the people not in hell. It does not seem to teach that the dead can hear prayers of the living, it just isn't there.
I am not sure that I do. Being in a different realm and all, I am not sure that the dead can hear the living's prayers. God, being everywhere and all knowing can hear our prayers from anywhere and everywhere, but dead humans, not being so....I am not sure how they would hear our prayers directed to them from the living world. They are in a different place, after all.
Yeah, but Jesus had the ability to descend to hades, raise the dead, and you know, is God. While Jesus is of course both God and Man, each 100%, I don't think that he can be used as a example of men praying to the dead. He is too unique.Let me put another case; on the mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah were conversing with Jesus, Jesus a man on earth and alive was speaking to Moses a man long dead and Elijah a man translated to heaven without dying. Here is a case of an earthly man conversing with the dead; and the three apostles heard the conversation and participated by offering to build three tabernacles for Moses, Elijah, and Jesus.
I've given two examples, and one more in the case of Onesiphorus, you object to each with different objections, each objection is contrived to nullify what is in the text of sacred scripture so, why shouldn't I conclude that the doctrine that you embrace will always override what the holy scriptures say and that in truth it is protestants who use their "magisterium" to nullify holy scripture? Besides this, there is the passage in second Maccabees chapter twelve that directly teaches the goodness of prayers for the dead and which your tradition excludes from the canon thus excluding one more passage of sacred scripture from teaching on this topic, is this not another proof that Protestantism is more interested in its doctrine than it is in what the holy scriptures say and teach?Yeah, but Jesus had the ability to descend to hades, raise the dead, and you know, is God. While Jesus is of course both God and Man, each 100%, I don't think that he can be used as a example of men praying to the dead. He is too unique.
The fact that Moses and Elijah were there and the disciples could see and hear the conversation is an interesting point, but Moses and Elijah were there, on Earth in the land of the living, assumedly by the power of God. The disciples were not praying to them while Moses and Elijah were in the spirit realm. So it still does not prove that the dead can hear us wherever they are from the living.
I am sorry, but I feel that I have presented why I object based on what is written and the way it reads. I do not find your responses to the objections I presented as satisfactory in resolving said objections.I've given two examples, and one more in the case of Onesiphorus, you object to each with different objections, each objection is contrived to nullify what is in the text of sacred scripture so,
You should not take that conclusion because I actually am open to the idea of praying to the dead, but it is a practice that needs to be evidenced in some way, and the evidence presented thus far leaves me wanting.why shouldn't I conclude that the doctrine that you embrace will always override what the holy scriptures say and that in truth it is protestants who use their "magisterium" to nullify holy scripture?
I am familiar with Second Maccabees 12, I always have heard that used to argue in favor of praying for the dead, not to the dead. The passage makes a strong argument in favor of praying for the dead. Personally I consider the Maccabees books to be scripture, in general I find the argument in favor of some of the larger Catholic cannon to be strong.Besides this, there is the passage in second Maccabees chapter twelve that directly teaches the goodness of prayers for the dead and which your tradition excludes from the canon thus excluding one more passage of sacred scripture from teaching on this topic, is this not another proof that Protestantism is more interested in its doctrine than it is in what the holy scriptures say and teach?
You are painting with a bit too wide a brush here. While some see only their own doctrines when they read Scripture, not all are so bound by their traditions. AND some traditions, particularly the Anglican and Lutheran ones, are a lot more like Catholics and the Orthodox in many things, overall tending not even to want to be called Protestant. Don't alienate people like these, who, like even C.S. Lewis, agreed with you (and me). They are not all the same. Treating them as the same may not work. Know who you are in discussion with.Besides this, there is the passage in second Maccabees chapter twelve that directly teaches the goodness of prayers for the dead and which your tradition excludes from the canon thus excluding one more passage of sacred scripture from teaching on this topic, is this not another proof that Protestantism is more interested in its doctrine than it is in what the holy scriptures say and teach?
Putting a case in a discussion is not likely to alienate an honest interlocutor. Besides "protestant" is such a broad concept that it has almost lost its meaning; not too many protestants want to be called protestant nowadays, they prefer other words, like evangelical, reformed, Anglican, and so forth.You are painting with a bit too wide a brush here. While some see only their own doctrines when they read Scripture, not all are so bound by their traditions. AND some traditions, particularly the Anglican and Lutheran ones, are a lot more like Catholics and the Orthodox in many things, overall tending not even to want to be called Protestant. Don't alienate people like these, who, like even C.S. Lewis, agreed with you (and me). They are not all the same. Treating them as the same may not work. Know who you are in discussion with.
TampaSteve is way different from, for example, hislegacy. Their approaches to Scripture are quite different, one being open to the full canon and the other not so much. We don’t get down on one for the expected objections of the other. They are quite different folks.Putting a case in a discussion is not likely to alienate an honest interlocutor. Besides "protestant" is such a broad concept that it has almost lost its meaning; not too many protestants want to be called protestant nowadays, they prefer other words, like evangelical, reformed, Anglican, and so forth.
Quite true, I appreciate the candour of TampaSteve, my conversation with TampaSteve has been a pleasure for me.TampaSteve is way different from, for example, hislegacy. Their approaches to Scripture are quite different, one being open to the full canon and the other not so much. We don’t get down on one for the expected objections of the other. They are quite different folks.
Hmmm....I wouldn't say we "pray" to the dead other than ask for their intercession. If they "hear" anything in the afterlife, then it's because God allows it.I agree with all of that, but I am still not grasping how "conversation is a prayer from one dead person to another" teaches that the dead can hear prayers from the living.
Depends how define "dead." Dead on earth, yes, but not dead spiritually. Those in heaven (or purgatory if one accepts it) are very much alive in Christ, and as Christians we can make intercession and supplications for them IMHO.Yeah, but Jesus had the ability to descend to hades, raise the dead, and you know, is God. While Jesus is of course both God and Man, each 100%, I don't think that he can be used as a example of men praying to the dead. He is too unique.
The fact that Moses and Elijah were there and the disciples could see and hear the conversation is an interesting point, but Moses and Elijah were there, on Earth in the land of the living, assumedly by the power of God. The disciples were not praying to them while Moses and Elijah were in the spirit realm. So it still does not prove that the dead can hear us wherever they are from the living.
"Pray to" and "ask" have the same meaning. This is not always understood by our interlocutors because some appear to believe that "pray" has a special lexical meaning quite different from "ask".Hmmm....I wouldn't say we "pray" to the dead other than ask for their intercession. If they "hear" anything in the afterlife, then it's because God allows it.
I'm not dead yet so I do not know how the afterlife works completely.
Thank you, I appreciate that.Quite true, I appreciate the candour of TampaSteve, my conversation with TampaSteve has been a pleasure for me.
Pray, ask, talk, it's all really the same - speaking with other believers or to our deity. The hearing part is what I have trouble believing. I don't see scripture that points that they can hear us. How would that work? They are in a separate space, they don't have the ability to be omniscient and listen to everyone's thoughts or prayers - to converse or commune with us as God can.Hmmm....I wouldn't say we "pray" to the dead other than ask for their intercession. If they "hear" anything in the afterlife, then it's because God allows it.
I'm not dead yet so I do not know how the afterlife works completely.
I don't have an issue praying for the dead, or otherwise said the "alive in Christ". But praying for someone is in effect praying to God (assuming we are leaving praying to saints for the souls of others out of the conversation in this aspect) to do something for someone that is dead to the Earth but alive in Christ, or even alive in hades/hell. So making intercession or supplications for someone is not, IMO, the same as praying/speaking to the dead.Depends how define "dead." Dead on earth, yes, but not dead spiritually. Those in heaven (or purgatory if one accepts it) are very much alive in Christ, and as Christians we can make intercession and supplications for them IMHO.
100% agree."Pray to" and "ask" have the same meaning. This is not always understood by our interlocutors because some appear to believe that "pray" has a special lexical meaning quite different from "ask".
Not just a separate space but an entirely different dimension from us, if one can speak of eternity as a dimension. In any case speaking and hearing are, here on earth, functions of vibrations in the atmosphere and one presumes that angels, spirits of every kind, and the dear departed do not have an earthly environment in which to hear vibrations in the air. So, the saints "hear" by some other means, perhaps the same or similar means through which God "hears" our prayers. And since we do not live in eternity and have not experienced it ourselves we are not in a good position to comment on what is or is not possible there.Pray, ask, talk, it's all really the same - speaking with other believers or to our deity. The hearing part is what I have trouble believing. I don't see scripture that points that they can hear us. How would that work? They are in a separate space, they don't have the ability to be omniscient and listen to everyone's thoughts or prayers - to converse or commune with us as God can.
Fantastically written and you have given me much to think about; thank you.Not just a separate space but an entirely different dimension from us, if one can speak of eternity as a dimension. In any case speaking and hearing are, here on earth, functions of vibrations in the atmosphere and one presumes that angels, spirits of every kind, and the dear departed do not have an earthly environment in which to hear vibrations in the air. So, the saints "hear" by some other means, perhaps the same or similar means through which God "hears" our prayers. And since we do not live in eternity and have not experienced it ourselves we are not in a good position to comment on what is or is not possible there.
In the case of Samuel and Saul with the witch of Endor somehow or other Samuel "heard" the call to come and converse with Saul. He did come, shocked the living daylights out of the witch (who was no doubt a charlatan much like mediums today are) and let Saul know his fate was sealed and he would soon be dead. This is one example of the dead "hearing". Another is at the Transfiguration of our Lord, where Moses "heard" Jesus, and the three apostles "heard" Moses, how it works I do not know, but work it does.
Another example is the souls of the dead under the altar in heaven who "hear" of the state of the world and its injustice so that they cry out to the Lord, "how long" until they are avenged.
Three examples of this kind of "hearing" ought to be enough, even if we do not know how it works.
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