purchasing icons, the good, the bad and the ugly

[AncientFaith]

I wanted to suggest a place to get icons not listed by the original post.
I was recommended by an Antiochian priest to go to St. Elizabeth Convent.
Since I haven't yet been able to post links yet due to the few posts I have made since starting. I'll give the shortened version: conventofsaintelizabeth.org
I got a quote for a hand-painted icon, their price seems reasonable. I have seen first hand the artwork in the Antiochian Orthodox parish produced by this convent, it is first rate.

I recently received my icon of St. Patrick from them, which is quite beautiful, but I don't have enough posts yet to show it here.

It is sitting in the altar at our Church for just a bit longer.

Another good site is uncutmountainsupply.com

 

[Michael G]

I had a few questions in my post which were not addressed.

I am not encouraging Orthodox or Catholics to purchase the Monastic Icons.

The charge that they are dangerous, other than that they are blessed in an non-Christian form, which I find difficult to substantiate, is at worst hearsay and at best plausible. One could say it is blessed in a non-Orthodox form for certain, and if there are Catholic iconographers, the same applies that it is non-Catholic form. The main question is regarding them specifically is:

Is there anything within their "artwork" that is heretical?

They may be officially without valid sacraments, they may be doctrinally worse than Oriental Orthodox--being far worse than the charge of Nestorianism. The point in question is in terms of specific danger in the use of their artwork, or if the artwork is blessed by an unsuspecting Catholic elder or Priest (considering if you are a Catholic) or laid on the Altar for forty days by an Orthodox priest (which I doubt would be possible, but I am not ruling out its possibility considering perhaps other companies that make "icon" prints without official iconographers) what really is the danger?

Consider this for a moment... in a practical matter. I own three of their icons. Someone donated these icons to me. I have St. Patrick, St. Francis of Assisi, and St. Joan of Arc. If they are dangerous, these specific "artworks," then I need to throw them away. Let's be very practical about this, since I have a real genuine concern owning three of them.

You need to burn them. What they do is at best sacrilege and at worst it is a direct mockery and insult to Christ.

 

[St. Columcille]

You need to burn them. What they do is at best sacrilege and at worst it is a direct mockery and insult to Christ.

Considering the baptizing the culture, accepting the good and rejecting the bad, I should think St. Nicholas of Japan's example would not be found to burn everything Japanese, especially if a Japanese artist would out of mutual respect attempt to draw a painting of Christ, regardless if they were themselves Shin Buddhists. I do not see any precidence to burn such artwork if there is nothing inherint in it that is unsound. Perhaps my considering it artwork and not an icon would be best rather than burning it. I just don't want people to become so uptight and react in ways not consistent with a Christian ethos. I should not want to become like the Taliban who destroys Hindu statues simply because they disagree with Hinduism; this is a much lesser case in which the artwork is depicting Christ and not the gods of Vishnu, Braham, and other deities. It is unwise to purchase from them due to their claims not being true. This I concur and agree with you.

 

[Michael G]

Considering the baptizing the culture, accepting the good and rejecting the bad, I should think St. Nicholas of Japan's example would not be found to burn everything Japanese, especially if a Japanese artist would out of mutual respect attempt to draw a painting of Christ, regardless if they were themselves Shin Buddhists. I do not see any precidence to burn such artwork if there is nothing inherint in it that is unsound. Perhaps my considering it artwork and not an icon would be best rather than burning it. I just don't want people to become so uptight and react in ways not consistent with a Christian ethos. I should not want to become like the Taliban who destroys Hindu statues simply because they disagree with Hinduism; this is a much lesser case in which the artwork is depicting Christ and not the gods of Vishnu, Braham, and other deities. It is unwise to purchase from them due to their claims not being true. This I concur and agree with you.

Monastery Icons are spiritually dangerous and are an affront to Christ. They are a mockery of Orthodox iconography and are not written in a manner consistent with the teaching of the church. The precedence to burn heretical and sacrilegous things goes much further back than St. Nicholas of Japan. Why don't you examine how the early church handled matters.

 

[St. Columcille]

[...] I am unsure of a great many things...[...] You really make it more confusing for a simple layman as myself. I am against all forms of censorship and destruction of artifacts, I believe John Milton's tract entitle "Aeropagetica" is a sound and reasonable exegete for all Christians in all ages. [...] If the artwork in question is heretical, please show us a picture of Christ by monasteryicons and show us in the imagery were it teaches something out of the ordinary; if you can do that, it would be an intellectual demonstration for all to see and not an emotional outburst. I simply cannot destroy what I have already bought from them; I am refusing to buy from them since it was brought to my attention regarding who they are and how they inaccurately present themselves as "Catholics." I only view them as artwork now, not icons, made by pagan hands but without pagan symbols.

Saint Nicholas of Japan was a unique and notable example to all Orthodox Christian missionaries. First, he threw himself wholeheartedly into understanding the language and culture. When he was found reading non-Japanese books, his Archbishop rebuked him, and he resolved to only read Japanese literature. He got out into the community and listened to Buddhist and Shinto storytellers and preachers. He researched the history of Japan. He knew it better than most Japanese.
Mission Notes: Saint Nicholas of Japan

I really have to wonder at your temperment. St. Nicholas of Japan is quite exceptional, but we are all different members of the body of Christ with different gifts. I am grateful for your abilities and your advice, albeit I'll take St. Nicholas of Japan's example on this one and you your own path as the Lord leds you.

 

[Michael G]

I recently received my icon of St. Patrick from them, which is quite beautiful, but I don't have enough posts yet to show it here.

It is sitting in the altar at our Church for just a bit longer.

Another good site is uncutmountainsupply.com

Their "icon" of St. Patrick is inaccurate. They show him being a Western Bishop wearing a miter. St. Patrick was not a western bishop. He served in Ireland a full 600 years before it became under the control of Rome. Further, the miter was not worn by western bishops until about the year 1000 ad.

 

[St. Columcille]

Their "icon" of St. Patrick is inaccurate. They show him being a Western Bishop wearing a miter. St. Patrick was not a western bishop. He served in Ireland a full 600 years before it became under the control of Rome. Further, the miter was not worn by western bishops until about the year 1000 ad.

See, it is educational for others to see. Thank you. Not sure if it warrants burning it at this point over a "miter."

 

[Michael G]

See, it is educational for others to see. I am not sure how that doctrinally changes things. They also make an icon of Francis of Assisi, Joan of Arc... . I don't think it warrants burning, no Eastern or Oriental Orthodox is going to purchase the image of saints of the Roman Catholics. Now if the Orientals made an icon of Christ that doctrinally speaks of his nature inconsistent with Eastern Orthodoxy, do you not think this would be dangerous also? Yet there are concessions for Oriental Orthodox to partake communion in the Eastern Orthodox Church when there exists no Oriental Orthodox priests and permission is granted by an Eastern Orthodox bishop. Are you going to condemn the bishops that allow Oriental Orthodox to partake of the Eucharist? There has to be some restraint on your part in being so quick to violent protest for everything not Eastern Orthodox. This is why I mentioned St. Nicholas of Japan's example. A man who went out and studied the culture, who saved his own life by understanding the Japanese ethos and getting a samurai bent on killing him to listen to what he preached. Not all things are destructive, in fact, you explaining about their differences in the artwork of St. Patrick they depict is an opportunity to witness.

How is it educational for others to see something that is factually false? To depict St. Patrick as anything other than what he was is false, shows a poor understanding of history and borders on an outright lie. You seem to not understand what is so dangerous about these paintings. They are not what they seem to be. They are a deception. They are created by a group that is pagan and poses to be Christian. They have not been prayed over when being created and they do not obey the sacred canons of the Church that do govern iconography.

 

[St. Columcille]

Sometimes people are so used to seeing a dollar bill and going to market and purchasing goods, that on the occasion that counterfeit dollar bills circulate, nobody takes a closer look since they rarely encounter the falsehood.

[...]
I am presently on a journey toward Eastern Orthodoxy, I find that an evangelistic opportunity is being missed here by instructing me to burn something without explaining any heretical elements within the 'artwork' itself.

 

[Michael G]

Sometimes people are so used to seeing a dollar bill and going to market and purchasing goods, that on the occasion that counterfeit dollar bills circulate, nobody takes a closer look since they rarely encounter the falsehood.

You have only given one example of the artwork that is inconsistent with the historical reality with St. Patrick, and this is only a piece of clothing. If an artwork paints Christ's face as white and not olive skin, is this not also a fabrication? Perhaps Christ's beard is squarish and not pointed when he was alive? Perhaps he was completely naked without even a piece of cloth covering his private hanging on the cross, yet these things are very minor. Even the cross of Christ has taken different shapes. Is the Russian Crucifix more right than the Celtic Cross, is the Coptic Orthodox cross more wrong than the Russian? I am sure Christ hung on only one cross and its depiction by artists and iconographers are different over time and cultures with some slight variations to teach the cultures under mission.

I am presently on a journey toward Eastern Orthodoxy, I find that an evangelistic opportunity is being missed here by yourself by an blind insistence without instruction which does not seek to educate a potential convert or even an ill-instructed Orthodox Christian.

You expect me to help you learn about iconography when you question my temperment and call me blind?

 

[St. Columcille]

[...] removed my remarks as this is restipulated earlier concerns not answered.
What is in the "artwork" itself that warrants it to be burned?

 

[Anhelyna]

St Columcille

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this and I'll probably get slammed for this.

You are trying to learn about Orthodoxy , you say , but you are certainly doing your darndest to tell an Iconographer that you know more than him .

Michael is not telling you to hate anyone - he's trying to explain things to you , but you don't seem able to accept this.

 

[Michael G]

St. Columcille,
There are 4 people I take advice about iconography from. Bishop MELCHISEDEK, a friend who is an established painter of churches, my wife-who has the honor of being both my student and my advisor, and the master iconographer who my bishop has appointed as my mentor. Thank you.

BTW, has anyone seen my temper flare? LOL! This whole thing reminds me of Jack Nicholson addressing Tom Cruise in "A Few Good Men": You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.

 

[Philothei]

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[Michael G]

More info on Monastery Icons, for those of you who doubt they are really that messed up of a group:

Monastery Icons - The Byzantine Forum

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

I bought an icon of St. Mary Magdalene from Not of this World Icons. It is gildedin the Russian style and is beautiful.

 

[Dylan Michael]

I have a question-
What is the difference between Russian and Greek Style icons?

 

[Antony in Tx]

I have a question-
What is the difference between Russian and Greek Style icons?

Cyrillic vs Greek?!?!?!

 

[Michael G]

It is hard to speak of Russian icons v. Greek icons as there are so many different schools of both Russian and Greek icons. Russian icons tend to be more elongated than Byzantine icons. Russian icons tend to be 9 heads tall vs 7 heads tall in Byzantine icons. Russian icons tend to use more transparent colors than the Greeks do, and they tend to use ALOT less highlights than the Greeks do. However, as I said, there are many differences between the schools within Russian and Greek iconography. There are schools of Russian iconography where the icons look very Byzantine, and then there are schools of Russian iconography where the icons look very austere. Thus it really is hard to generalize between the two.

 

[Chief_Sinner]

My Church and I have purchased Icons from St. Isaac of Syria Skete. Archangels Books seems to ship Icons previously purchased from the Skete. The website is Skete.com

Also, my Church and I have purchsed from Uncut Mountain Press. IIRC, Archangels Books too ships Icons previously purchased from them.
The website it uncutmountain.com

PS
I can't post links yet, so you'll have to make due with this