Public Prayer

[seebs]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I can understand how you could conclude that *you* don't do it to be seen... but it's hard to say that students don't do it to be seen when they talk about how cool it is that all these people see them, and they're going somewhere special to pray, and they picked a spot that's very visible."

Seebs, we already covered this. Christ's instructions were not to pray in public if you're doing to to "act" rigtheous and are not. That's made very clear in his example. the guy in the example prayed, "thanks for not making me like these other slobs." Seebs do you not understand what christ was saying? He was NOT saying don't pray in public.

So you say, but it sounds to me like a heroic effort to avoid the obvious and unambiguous conclusion of the scriptures. Christ's commandment used those as *examples*, but it was very sweeping; when you pray, go into a private place and close the door. Not "sometimes when you pray". *EVERY* time you pray, go in private to do it. That's what He said, and His example was that He went apart from people to pray. Every time.

Let's read it together, shall we?

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward the openly."

This is a totally and utterly unambigous imperative statement in English; it says "when you pray, do it in secret". Not "sometimes". Not "unless you have a political point to make". Not "unless you think praying in public is a kind of witnessing".

EVERY.
TIME.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Andrew
"I understand from very good sources that Smith Wigglesworth is a fictional character created by a preacher for the purpose of giving his congregation an interesting hero to emulate."

and so was Jesus, John G Lake, TL Osborn, Mariah Woodworth Etter?*LOL* That's ridiculous. I dun know where you got your sources from. sure, when they cant accept something, just make up something. *LOL

Well, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing some documentary evidence supporting these claims. The sheer frequency of healings that are attributed to Wigglesworth exceeds anything I've seen attributed to anyone else for hundreds of years, and they apparently happened recently enough that there ought to be relevant medical records.

There are a lot of wonderful-sounding stories which are, unfortunately, false. I don't like the idea that anyone's faith should rest on a story which is untrue; faith should be about truth, and an untruth on which your faith rests puts it at grave risk.

I don't know much about Mr. Wigglesworth, but I am obliged to observe that the history I've seen so far in a bit of casual web searching fits very well with some sort of fiction; whether perpetrated by an actual Mr. Wigglesworth, or merely attributed to a fictional one by someone else.

 

[LouisBooth]

"when you pray, go into a private place and close the door. "

Just another example of you taking scripture out of context to prove your point seebs. Too bad that it doesn't mean what you twist it into.

The point of the passage is clear, yet again you try to twist and rationalize your way out of the truth and into what you want it to be. Sorry seebs, you're wrong.

 

[Gerry]

John 11:

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Jesus praying in public, with the expressed purpose of being seen and heard.

 

[Andrew]

Well seebs, if you want to argue that way, you might as well do so for all other healing evangelists down through the centuries. Smith Wigglesworth is not the only one with a miraculous ministry.

if u really want to check it out, u can call up the Lester Sumrall ministry and ask them if bro Wigglesworth is only fictional.
http://www.lesea.com/ministry/index.cfm

SW laid his hands on Lester Sumrall and prophesied correctly about the pentecostal/charismatic movt. Sumrall passed on in the late 90s (i think) so its quite recent.

Smith Wigglesworth never wrote any books. He considered it a waste of time and wld rather be out there preaching and healing the sick. But his faithful followers and listeners, people who knew this man was from God, wrote down his sermons, which usu contains healing miracles. So the books u see out there are just collections of his sermons.

i think only one particular book Ever Increasing Faith, was endorsed by Wigglesworth himself ie he checked that that's what he preached.

This book is a classic and best seller among charismatics. If u can, I'd encourage you to read it and judge for yourself, b4 listening to the skeptics and critics.

u can also call up the publisher, Whitaker House and ask them if SW is fictional. I believe this publisher is quite well-known in the Christian world and doubt its deceiving people.

"I don't like the idea that anyone's faith should rest on a story which is untrue;"

no one's resting their faith on stories. My faith is on the Word, which says "greater works than these shall you do".

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Andrew
Well seebs, if you want to argue that way, you might as well do so for all other healing evangelists down through the centuries. Smith Wigglesworth is not the only one with a miraculous ministry.

if u really want to check it out, u can call up the Lester Sumrall ministry and ask them if bro Wigglesworth is only fictional.
http://www.lesea.com/ministry/index.cfm

SW laid his hands on Lester Sumrall and prophesied correctly about the pentecostal/charismatic movt. Sumrall passed on in the late 90s (i think) so its quite recent.

Smith Wigglesworth never wrote any books. He considered it a waste of time and wld rather be out there preaching and healing the sick. But his faithful followers and listeners, people who knew this man was from God, wrote down his sermons, which usu contains healing miracles. So the books u see out there are just collections of his sermons.

i think only one particular book Ever Increasing Faith, was endorsed by Wigglesworth himself ie he checked that that's what he preached.

This book is a classic and best seller among charismatics. If u can, I'd encourage you to read it and judge for yourself, b4 listening to the skeptics and critics.

u can also call up the publisher, Whitaker House and ask them if SW is fictional. I believe this publisher is quite well-known in the Christian world and doubt its deceiving people.

"I don't like the idea that anyone's faith should rest on a story which is untrue;"

no one's resting their faith on stories. My faith is on the Word, which says "greater works than these shall you do".

Also Andrew,

I'm sure Smith's daughter would be amused to find out her father was fictional.      and his son-in-law, who has put his writings into book form     and his grandchildren   

It never ceases to baffle me how much those who want to discredit Jesus still moving today will emagine.  Or, maybe I should'nt be baffled.  That's the way Jesus said it would be.

 

[seebs]

It's quite possible that he was real; I was just observing that the stories have a lot of the traits normally associated with fictional ministries.

I find it rather odd that to see the phrase "those who want to discredit Jesus" in here; so far as I know, the only people to express doubts about Mr. Wigglesworth are people who have no desire at all to discredit Jesus.

However, I have seen "well-documented" healers eventually turn out to be fakes, so I like to see nice concrete evidence, and stories that are at least reasonably consistent with my expectations about the world.

For instance, in one story, it is claimed that a doctor analyzed him as having appendicitis, and was worried because Mr. Wigglesworth was too old for surgery, so of course, his wife prayed and he got better.

What bugs me about this story is this: The doctor, having made a house call, *LEFT*, saying he'd come back later. Why? Doctors don't normally do that in cases of appendicitis!

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"when you pray, go into a private place and close the door. "

Just another example of you taking scripture out of context to prove your point seebs. Too bad that it doesn't mean what you twist it into.

The point of the passage is clear, yet again you try to twist and rationalize your way out of the truth and into what you want it to be. Sorry seebs, you're wrong.

You know, that's an awful lot of attacks on my character, and an awful little explanation of what you think it means.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Gerry
John 11:

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

Jesus praying in public, with the expressed purpose of being seen and heard.

Hmm. He definitely prayed in front of people here. How many people? I can't tell; it sounds like a small group to me; Mary, Martha, and the people who had come to comfort them.

I would liken this more to a church service than to a "public place" in the usual sense.

Still, it's a very good example, and helps us understand the ways in which Christ Himself prayed. Thanks! I'd missed this one, because it didn't actually use the word "pray", but it definitely looks like a prayer.

 

[Andrew]

seebs,

"For instance, in one story, it is claimed that a doctor analyzed him as having appendicitis, and was worried because Mr. Wigglesworth was too old for surgery, so of course, his wife prayed and he got better. What bugs me about this story is this: The doctor, having made a house call, *LEFT*, saying he'd come back later. Why? Doctors don't normally do that in cases of appendicitis!"

I just re-read that story. Firstly, his wife was not the one who prayed for him and got him healed. SW prayed himself many times, but did not get healed. The deliverance came thru someone else. secondly, in the story, the doc left becos there was nothing he could do. he could not operate as his body was too weakened by the illness (he had tolerated it for 6 mths). the doc did comeback later but SW was already up and well. dun forget this is in the 1910s/20s not OR or E.R.

again, u can call up the book publishers n ask them if SW was only fictional. These are well-known Christian book publishers. I dont think they'll lie to you.

 

[seebs]

I just think the doctor's behavior is very unusual; normally, if you've got something utterly fatal, they operate anyway, because *if they don't you definitely die*.

Anyway, I'd be more interested in medical and state records than what people report or remember.

 

[TheBear]

Sadly, public prayer gatherings are not granted the same freedom of peacefull assembly, as any other group. What a double standard!

 

[LouisBooth]

"You know, that's an awful lot of attacks on my character, and an awful little explanation of what you think it means."

I'm not attacking your character at all, just your methods of saying, "this is evidence." You take things out of context all the time seebs. That's why I said that. I see you always doing this and then using it to rationalize your way to a point. its a mark of someone who likes to argue for arguing sake, which I believe you do

 

[Andrew]

"Anyway, I'd be more interested in medical and state records than what people report or remember."

well then that leaves out a lot of good Christian/secular books you can read, as well as most testimonies, even the Bible.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by Andrew
seebs,

"For instance, in one story, it is claimed that a doctor analyzed him as having appendicitis, and was worried because Mr. Wigglesworth was too old for surgery, so of course, his wife prayed and he got better. What bugs me about this story is this: The doctor, having made a house call, *LEFT*, saying he'd come back later. Why? Doctors don't normally do that in cases of appendicitis!"

I just re-read that story. Firstly, his wife was not the one who prayed for him and got him healed. SW prayed himself many times, but did not get healed. The deliverance came thru someone else. secondly, in the story, the doc left becos there was nothing he could do. he could not operate as his body was too weakened by the illness (he had tolerated it for 6 mths). the doc did comeback later but SW was already up and well. dun forget this is in the 1910s/20s not OR or E.R.

again, u can call up the book publishers n ask them if SW was only fictional. These are well-known Christian book publishers. I dont think they'll lie to you.

Yes, in the 1910's and 20's doctors made housecalls.  Also, because they had other patients to see to as well they would leave and come back.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"You know, that's an awful lot of attacks on my character, and an awful little explanation of what you think it means."

I'm not attacking your character at all, just your methods of saying, "this is evidence." You take things out of context all the time seebs. That's why I said that. I see you always doing this and then using it to rationalize your way to a point. its a mark of someone who likes to argue for arguing sake, which I believe you do

Hmm!  

 

[kern]

Originally posted by LouisBooth

I'm not attacking your character at all, just your methods of saying, "this is evidence." You take things out of context all the time seebs. That's why I said that. I see you always doing this and then using it to rationalize your way to a point. its a mark of someone who likes to argue for arguing sake, which I believe you do

But you still haven't provided any reasoning for your viewpoint. seebs has a verse, you say he's "twisting" it but you make no explanation.

You post in this manner a lot -- what you believe is Truth, and any other beliefs are simply twisting the "obvious" scriptures. Of course you don't have to *explain* yourself, just attack other people's character and put a smiley at the end of your post.

People have criticized you for doing this again and again. It adds nothing to the threads you post to. Do you have any support for your statement that seebs is taking the verse out of context? For instance, can you provide the context that we are supposed to be reading it in?

-Chris

 

[seebs]

I think the thing here may be a question of styles of thought. I'm a rationalist at heart; I make lists of axioms and work through them to conclusions. Louis, it seems to me, doesn't do it this way; the work happens subconsciously, and as such, he can't "show his work" as easily as some of us can. I don't mean this to be an insult or attack; it's just occurred to me that asking Louis to show the exact process by which he got to a conclusion is probably futile, like asking me to explain how I type. I can't tell you how I do it; I will it to be so and the body moves. I think Louis's faith and understanding are much more rooted in the heart than mine.

That said, I still don't understand the context I'm apparently missing - and I do, in fact, need to *understand* it to make progress. I need to break everything down into little children's chewable vitamins to make progress on this. It frustrates me no end when people tell me to "read it again" or "just read it, it's obvious" - it seems clear to me that I've *already* tried to read it, and understand it, and if I'm not coming to the answer someone thinks I should, then obviously, that person has data I don't, and I would appreciate it if this additional information were shared.

FWIW, I still dislike public prayer. I have been persuaded by a couple of people (thanks, especially, to Gerry who was very patient in this) that I should consider this one of those things where different people are apparently called to different models of behavior, and that my dislike of it means *I* shouldn't do it, and is not grounds for telling other people not to. I reserve the right to share my concerns about prayer that seems to be crossing that line, but in the end, it's pretty clear that this is an issue where people can disagree in good faith.

 

[PNJai]

I voted as long as the prayer is not just to be seen...